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I meant using a higher CYA level to slow chlorine loss; however I do realize I need to monitor the pool more until I get a better feel for the rate of chlorine usage and then go from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by PoolDoc
My understanding from reading on this forum is the higher the CYA level the slower the chlorine loss. On the flip side, with higher CYA levels you have to maintain a higher baseline of chlorine. Correct?
Your understanding is correct.
If the free chlorine level is raised above the recommended ideal max, say to 8ppm in a pool with 30-50 ppm CYA where the recommended max is 6ppm, what happens? I imagine the excess chlorine just burns off quicker, but wanted clarification. The chlorine levels seem to drop fairly quickly during the day right now. That being said the temps (S.E. PA) are 100 degrees and the pool is in full sun for most of the day.
When you are not having to treat a problem, you want to raise it to the normal max, and let it cycle down toward the normal minimum. Given losses to swimmers and sunlight, it's pretty much impossible to maintain a 'constant' chlorine level in the pool. What you want to avoid is having it go below the minimum. It's better to be too high than too low, because pools are not especially forgiving, and a single algae episode can consume 30 days worth of chlorine!
wow, that certainly is motivation enough to keep the levels in the recommended range. If I find the levels aren't holding throughout the day, is that when the CYA should be raised? For example, the past two days I've had to add bleach twice each day to maintain the proper level.Quote:
Originally Posted by PoolDoc
Yes. If you can't keep enough chlorine in the pool throughout a day to keep from dipping below the minimum for your CYA level, then you should probably bump the CYA up a little. BTW --- in a concrete pool, it doesn't really hurt anything if your chlorine is a little higher but in a vinyl pool, it can bleach out some liners.
Had an aggrevating problem develop today. Some piping from the outlet of the pentair multiport (50181212) cracked and now there is a steady leak. While shutting down the filter to remove the piping I omitted closing the multiport and some of the D.E. went out into the pool through the skimmer, drains and return piping. I emailed pictures to poolforum AT gmail DOT com of the broken piping if a moderator could add them that would be great.
1) I realize I need to vacuum the D.E. from the pool, but will this mess up my water chemistry or is it okay in there for a day or two until I can get the proper vacuum head and tubing?
2) Can I replace that specific piece of piping including the cracked nut, or does the entire multiport have to be replaced? (pool service guy said the whole multiport has to be replaced)
3) How much hose do you think I should purchase for the vacuum?
4) Anything else I'm missing or need to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stslimited84
I ordered 40' of vacuum hose and this vacuum head - (LINK REMOVED BY MODERATOR so your post could be modded in quicker)
I'm currently still trying to find out if I can get just those parts for the multiport, and if I can, how quickly I can get them b/c the leak needs to be fixed asap. The multiport for the D.E. filter I have is priced between 125 and 150ish online.
But back to the main question, is the D.E. that went back into the pool going to cause problems with my chlorine and other parameters or is it ok to swim in the pool?
Go swim. The DE will not hurt anything. Al (Poconos) is going to pop into your thread to help you address the equipment questions. Good luck.
If the multiport valve body itself is not cracked then it doesn't need to be replaced. If the valve body is trashed then you have nothing to lose by trying to fix it. If the body is cracked at the threads I'd try JB Weld. Home depot, Lowes etc. I'd get a new PVC male fitting and smear it with the JB and thread it in and let it set. If the body is cracked beyond the threads then try the JB from the inside. the stuff is tough. As I said....nothing to lose. We're trying to see if we can see the pics you sent. I'm not sure how to do that yet. Maybe Ben is the only one who has access.
Al
Al
any luck on viewing the pics?
Try sending them to poolforum DOT pics AT gmail DOT com instead and we'll get them posted. Ben is pretty busy right now and I'm sure he just hasn't gotten to it.
Don't forget to reference the URL of this thread so we can get them to the right place.
Pics sent :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Watermom
OK. They will be posted to your thread later this afternoon for you!
Here are the pics
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-f.../IMG_1083a.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-J.../IMG_1079a.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-w.../IMG_1080a.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-C.../IMG_1082a.jpg
It looks like the pipes are threaded into the valve body itself and it doesn't look like the body itself is cracked. In that case you should be able to replace just the external couplings/adapters/pipes. You will have to adapt to the external pipe but with all the PVC stuff that's available it should be relatively easy, and a whole lot cheaper than a new valve assembly.
Al
Thanks for posting the pics and replying. Thats good news about the pipe. I didnt think the valve itself was cracked and was quite skeptical when the pool service company said the whole thing had to be replaced. A replacement nut should be arriving tomorrow and hopefully replacing that should work. If not I'll take the pipes out and pick up some new fittings etc. I'll let you.
Thanks guys! :)
I've been diligently testing the water, and thus, have been using a lot of chlorine test agent. Where can I buy refills, preferably a larger quantity, of the liquid reagent and powder.
You can get them several places online, including the Taylortechnologies.com site, amatoindustries.com, or several other places. I get mine from spspoolspas.com.
Janet
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by aylad
Hoping to have the leak fixed on friday. Will let you know what happens. What other ways can I raise the pool's calcium level besides using cal-hypo? I think Id rather stick with the bleach method since I've become comfortable with it.
Calcium chloride, sold as Calcium Increaser or other similar names.
Thanks. Is this readily available at hardware stores or places like Walmart or Target?Quote:
Originally Posted by PoolDoc
The only question I can throw my two cents towards is this one: 3) I'll test for the CYA and post the results. Would this be a good price for it? http://www.lowes.com/pd_86401-1772-0...ine&facetInfo=
I bought 4lbs of stablizer (not 3lbs) at a local pool store for the same price ($13.83 for my nearest Lowes). Maybe check your local pool supply store for a better price.
Some success was had. The new nut which replaced the cracked nut corrected part of the leak; however it was not the main leak. The main leak is coming from the filter where the gasket meets the metal of the filter. It is old and not very pliable anymore. Going to try a few things today, and if need be, go the jb weld route which I think/hope will fix it if we get to that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poconos
I'm thinking next year I'm just going to get a new D.E. filter, with a step up in size. The pool plumbing supply store charged 9 dollars for that plastic nut, ridiculous! Do newer filters come plumbed with standard PVC pieces/threading?
As far as the pool's daily chlorine fluctuations, at night I've been bumping it up to about 5.5 ppm. When tested the next evening, its at 2.5 ppm, so it almost holds at the minimum level but not quite. Should I bump up the CYA?
I would try bumping up the chlorine level first and see what effect that has. 7-ish, maybe? If that doesn't work, and the consumption is purely sun and not junk in the water, then it won't hurt to bump it up a little. But use small increments-- you don't want more CYA than you need!
Hey guys,
just an update. The pool seems to be holding chlorine levels better now...im thinking the cya has fully dissolved. Its holding throughout the day and I'm adding about 1.25 gals of bleach daily. Seem about right or is it using too much chlorine?
Also, the Ph levels seem to keep rising. Last week the ph was about 7.8, so I lowered it with muriatic acid to about 7.2. Tested it again today and its back up to 7.8. It shouldnt rise this fast should it?
Chlorine consumption sounds about right. What is your CYA level now?
Also, what is your TA? Is your pool plaster new, and curing, or is it older? This thread has gotten so long I can't remember the details without reading the whole thread. If plaster is curing, then the pH is going to rise as part of the process. If it's older plaster, and your TA is high, then you might try lowering it to around 70 and see if that doesn't make your pH more stable. Also, if you have a fountain, waterfall, or other form of water aeration in operation, that would contribute to the pH rise.
Janet
CYA is about 35 give or take. The plaster was redone a few years ago, so i believe its past the curing stage. The last TA reading I got was about 110 ppm.Quote:
Originally Posted by aylad
The only form of aeration would be the hot tub when its on, but it hasnt been used much at all, maybe two or 3 times and not within the past 2 weeks.
How should I go about lowering the TA? Should I aerate it using the hot tub blower?
You might find that you can lower your chlorine consumption a little bit more by bumping up the CYA level--I'd bump it up to around 40-50. Won't change the amount of chlorine you have to keep in the pool, but it might slow down the consumption by the sun.
I'm told by the chemists that if you're not using stabilized chlorine, then dropping the TA to about 70 will help stabilize your pH. Here's the procedure for lowering TA....http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=191 ....and I would think the hot tub blower would be an excellent way to aerate the water!
Janet
Here's another guide you might like to read. It kind of goes hand in hand with the one Jan linked for you above.
Using Muriatic Acid Safely
I was thinking of bumping up the CYA, but didnt want to do so without checking with you guys first. I read the lower TA guide and thats where I got the idea about the blower from.Quote:
Originally Posted by aylad
I read that guide when I started and have been using muriatic acid since. Thank you for the help. Ill start to aerate. I wonder how long it'll take to drop it down the TA to about 70?Quote:
Originally Posted by Watermom
You can bump up the CYA, but remember it takes several days to give you a reading. Then you'll need to follow the "Best Guess Table" for the maintaining the pool.
Lowering T/A from 110 to 70 shouldn't take long. Remember: When the pH goes down to 7 after you add acid, the T/A will go down with it. Aeration brings the pH back up without raising T/A. So....the first time you lower T/A you'll be able to figure out how long it takes.
Hope that helps.
Carl
Hey guys just an update.
The pool has been running very well thanks to everyone's help. Its gonna start raining like crazy here due to Hurricane Irene. I havent gotten the calcium level raised yet, and I'd really like too. The only cal-hypo at the local pool store is in powder form from Leslie's and is called "power powder plus." I searched for tabs but the only ones i can find are for large 50 or more pounds of the stuff. How much do I need to raise it from 200 ppm up to where it should be (300ish)? Any suggestions on what I should buy and how much?
You have options. With Cal-Hypo, for every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) that is added, it also increases Calcium Hardness (CH) by 7 ppm. So at normal chlorine usage rates, it will take too long to raise your CH. At 2 ppm FC per day, it's an increase of a little over 40 ppm per month. Nevertheless, it does say that you can use Cal-Hypo as a chlorine source without concern for over-saturation.
To increase CH faster, you would use Calcium Chloride. This is found in products such as Peladow, Dowflake and Tetra or you could pay more and get Calcium Hardness Increaser at a pool store (it's the same thing). You can use The Pool Calculator to calculate dosages.
So essentially calcium chloride is what is used to melt snow and ice in the winter, correct? I found a product at home depot called "Vaporizer" which says its 100% calcium chloride pellets. It's sold in a 50 lb bag for $17.97. I'd link the product but im still a restricted member so I cant yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by chem geek
Does that fit the bill, and how much should I add to the pool? Its sitting around 200 ppm.
Thank ya much!
I used the pool calculator link and its telling me I need to add 237 lbs to bring the calcium level up from 200 to 300 ppm. Is that right? Sure seems like a lot of calcium chloride to add.
I think you've got some extra digits somewhere. 237 lbs sounds w-a-y high.
One of the reasons I'm not in love with the pool calculator is that it tends to encourage people toward a 'fix it in one dose' approach to chemistry. This was a BAD idea, when pool stores pioneered that approach, and it's a BAD idea now.
There IS an exception: low chlorine should be fixed in one dose, and usually, more is better. (More as in 3x too much, not 50x too much!)
For everything else, it's much, much better --- in PRACTICE --- to dose, test, and re-dose if needed. For your 25-30,000 gallon pool, you are around 1/5 of a million pounds of water. So, if you add 1 lb of CYA, your CYA level will increase by 4 - 5 ppm. Calcium chloride dihydrate ends up being about 60% 'active' with respect to CH test results, so 1 # of Calc chloride will add 2 - 3 ppm calcium hardness.
So, if you wanted to increase your CH by 60 ppm, you'd need to add 20+ lbs of calcium chloride. But DO NOT DO THIS! As mentioned above, it's a generally bad idea. But, in a pool with a chemistry approaching calcium carbonate saturation, ANY large addition of pH+, alkalinity+ or calcium+ will tend to precipitate a cloud of calcium carbonate.
What's the solution? If you need to take a pool to saturation -- and you probably don't -- SMALL repeated doses are a much, MUCH better way to do it. So, instead of adding 20+ lbs, add 5 -10 lbs and then retest.
Yeah you're right, I had an extra zero on the calculator. I knew that figure was not correct, good catch.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDave
Thanks for the replies. So Doc, let me ask you. How do I know what the saturation level is for the pool and at what level to stop? I want to make sure I get the calcium level where it so its all set when it comes time to close the pool in a month or so, b/c if ive read correctly, having a calcium level to low in a plaster pool can cause damage to the pool due to the water drawing calcium from the plaster.Quote:
Originally Posted by PoolDoc
I 100% agree with your slow dose and retest method. Have been using it since I started BBB.
Just to verify, would the best way to add the calcium be via the sock method?
also, sadly it will be time to close the pool in a few weeks...I will be having a pool company take care of the closing in regards to the equipment (blowing out the lines, cleaning the filter, etc), but Ill be handling the chemical aspect.
What do I need to do to close the pool chemically?
Thank you kindly :)
i was able to locate some peladow as suggested. How should I add it to the pool? sock method or add via the skimmer into the filter?