Upgrade recommendations for replacing 14" Intex sand filter combo?

My 14" Intex sand filter is beginning to spit sand into the pool. I don't really want to just repair or replace it with another Intex, so I'm thinking about a "real" pump/filter combo. The pool is only about 4500 gallons, so I probably need the smallest pump available, a two speed might be nice. I might also consider keeping the pump until it dies and only replace the filter for now. The system I have now is Intex model SF70110. Specs are - 120 VAC, 4.8 A, 30 psi max working pressure, 2150 gph max flow rate, 77 lbs silica sand.

I am well aware that some "engineering" will be necessary to convert from Intex proprietary fittings. I am capable and willing.

1. Should I really consider replacing the filter only?
2. What size and brand?
3. Is a 2-speed pump worth the extra cost on a system that small?
4. Other considerations I haven't thought of?

The "Hayward S180T92S 18-Inch 1 HP Sand Filter System" looks like a good, complete option.

I'd recommend several things:

1. Amazon usually accepts returns on defectives very easily . . . but be READY to install, and check everything out, so you can return PROMPTLY if needed. Hayward is usually pretty good out of the box, so hopefully you won't need this.

2. Get a timer to run with it. On a 15' pool, you will not need to run 24/7.

3. Upgrading to 2-speed on your own opens a can of worms you probably don't want to get into, on a tiny system like this. And, with a timer, the savings won't be huge. (Hayward catalogs a 2spd version of this unit, but I couldn't find any for sale.)

4. Get a valve you can throttle:

1.5 Hayward Industrial threaded PVC ball valve
1.5" PVC nipple

The pump may have too much flow, especially on backwash.Throttling it will not only reduce flow, but will reduce electrical usage somewhat. If you do NOT throttle, you may lose sand each time your backwash, AND you may 'force' dirt through the filter during normal operation. If you throttle enough so you do NOT loose sand during backwash, you probably have throttled enough to get good filtration.

CAUTION: do get the nipple. PVC ball valves can be 'stiff'; you'll need the strong nipple to 'turn against'. Put the nipple directly into the pump discharge port, and the valve on top of that. Also, ball valves trap water when open or closed. To winterize, leave the valve in a PARTLY open position.

Good luck!

Thanks! I looked at that and some Pentair equipment. It seemed like Pentair was more costly. Is it really that much better? Would this https://www.amazon.com/Hayward-SP175...Cp_36%3A-25000 coupled with a 16" or 18" filter be better than the 1hp 18" complete system? A few dollars extra for a better system is ok for me. The max flow on the .5 hp pump is 55 gpm, which is far above the max flow of even the 18" filter. How many gallons the .5 hp will push through a 16" or 18" filter? Would the .5 hp pump provide enough flow to properly backwash? Would I still need a throttle? Would it hurt anything to plump the 18" Hayward to my Intex pump? Seems to me the worst case would be it wouldn't flow enough to do the job.

Probably because AG pump/filter sizing is so 'flaky', the manufacturers usually do not make it easy to 'engineer' an AG pump filter combo.

Keep in mind, that the HP designations on AG pumps mean much, much less than you'd think: here's comparison table on the Hayward pumps:

https://www.hayward-pool.com/shop/en...ix-a-supowm--1

https://i.imgur.com/58kJscR.jpg

In general, bigger filters and smaller pumps are better. But, available equipment is better than unavailable equipment. A perfect match would probably be a 1 HP VS pump with a 21" filter, operating at 10 GPM for 8 hours per day, but backwashing at 12 - 15 GPM. However, such a system would probably cost $1,500 and have to be pieced together.

Everything is a compromise; nothing is fully optimal. But, I'm pretty sure the system listed above will work well, if throttled, and will be pretty economical, both to buy and to operate. And . . . it's available and serviceable.

I did know that relating the HP rating of centrifugal pumps to actual performance is kinda like voodoo. Performance depends on how the pump is designed, intended flow and pressures, and on and on. And none of them are tested, rated and reported the same way. As far as availability, the Hayward S180T 18" filter is available today from Amazon, as is the Hayward SP1750 .5 HP pump. I also am in possession of an Intex pump that is rated at .75 HP, 4.8 A and 35 GPM (depending on which Intex source you look at). All the Hayward stuff should be plenty serviceable, shouldn't it? If a 1HP variable pump works on a 21" filter, would a .5 or .75 HP not work with the 18"? I'm almost kinda sorta nearly leaning toward hooking the 18" filter up to my Intex pump, and seeing how it works. Then deciding if I can go smaller, need to stay about the same, or go bigger and throttle. But then, a complete system is cleaner, much more convenient and less expensive - equipment wise - in the long run.

"a complete system is cleaner, much more convenient and less expensive - equipment wise - in the long run."

. . . that was sorta my take on it . . . at least when the system is fairly competent, and that one seemed to be.

One last question - I think. Is there any significant seasonal price difference in pump/filter equipment? End of season sales or the like? My problem isn't terrible and I could live with it till we close the pool for the winter. 10% savings is probably not worth the wait, 25% would be.

Short answer? I don't know for sure, but I've never seen any evidence of that EXCEPT . . .

There is some times clearance on 'leftovers', but that puts you in a mix-n-match situation that can be tricky to work out and difficult to warranty.

Good luck!

Since I like to tinker and "injuneer", and in the interest of keeping my darlin' wife a little happier, I've decided on this piece together system.

https://www.amazon.com/Hayward-S180T...keywords=S180T

and this pump

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...G42D8KUC&psc=1

I found some Hayward propaganda that claims the S180T "design flow" is 35 GPM. The
SP1592 is rated at 58 GPM @ 40' of head pressure. I decided to go with the two speed model so maybe I won't need to throttle on low. The two speed will use less electricity on low than a throttled single speed, and I think it'll make less noise. This system will cost about 20% more than the complete single speed system, but I think the complete system probably comes with the LX series pump, instead of the Matrix.

Is this valve

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...AI2/poolbooks/

any higher quality than this one?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...KIKX0DER&psc=1

My experience has been that the Hayward pool valves are lower grade than the Hayward industrial valves.

Will this make a practical difference to you? Dunno. What's going to matter is whether you can operate the valve. Larger ball valves can be 'stiff'. That's why I suggested the S-80 nipple as the attachment point, so you will have a firm strong connection to stand the torque of handle operation.

One caution: AG filter "design flow" is bogus, and has been for years. Sand filter 'efficiency' at particle removal INCREASES as flow rates DECREASE. Inground pools are rated at 15 GPM per sft of sand filter area. Above ground pools are rated at 20 gpm. An 18" filter is rated at 26 GPM for an in-ground pool, but up to 35 for an above-ground pool. The lower rating on that filter is possibly that it has a shallower sand bed, which lowers the rating. Unfortunately, for good filtration you need to run at 12 gpm/sft, or 22 gpm.

Why the difference? Just because . . . of marketing needs. There's no science or engineering behind it; filtration requirements on AG pools are actually MORE demanding than on IG pools.

So, do what you like. But 58 gpm is more than TWICE the optimal flow through that filter. Low speed probably won't be enough to backwash, but on high, you'll likely lose sand every time. And if you ever turn it on 'high' when it's set to filter . . . you'll clean the sand right into the pool!

My thinking was that since Hayward pairs the 18" filter with the single speed 1 HP pump and a 1.5 HP 2 speed pump as complete systems - I couldn't be going too far wrong with a 1 HP 2 speed pump. If it needs throttled to backwash on high without flushing sand out - so be it. The only way I see this is a bad deal is if the pump doesn't provide enough circulation on low, and I don't think that's likely. As far as the valves go, I hadn't realized one was "pool rated" and the other "industrial".

I just realized the S210T 21" filter is only about $35 more than the 18". Hmmmmm?? More thinking. The flow rate for the 21" is 44 GPM at 20 GPM/sq.ft and 27 GPM at 12 GPM/sq.ft. And I saw somewhere that the 1 HP 2 speed pump puts out about 40 GPM @ 25' of head - on low. Is the profit margin really that much higher on motors than filters? Or do the filter people think they'll sell more other stuff if they sell you a terribly mismatched system?

What the sales people know is that HORSEPOWER sells, and filter INCHES do not. I've never seen any evidence that they care enough about anything else to even learn how negatively excess pump size affects pool operation!

It's the same mentality that produced ads associating Marlboro cigarettes with sexy independent toughness, rather than with black and leathery lungs that are prone to cancer, long after EVERYONE knew that that the 2nd association was the true one.

I found a Hayward pump/filter sizing .pdf that tells how to calculate which pump and filter you need. Based on that document, with a 21" filter, I need a pump that produces between 12 and 44 GPM @ 30' head. According to your suggestion of 12 GPM/sqft - 27 GPM would be the max flow. What would be the minimum flow required to adequately backwash a 21" sand filter - the Hayward S210T in particular?

15 GPM / sft is accepted. It's what I've designed for on large commercial rehab projects, and always seemed to work OK.

Generally, a centrifugal pump that will deliver 12 GPM through a filter and return piping is -- under most conditions (obligatory 'weasel' words) -- likely to deliver 15 GPM in a full open backwash.

Doesn't that work out to 36 GPM for a 21" filter - to backwash? And 27 GPM or less to filter? I guestimate that I have about 30' total head restriction in my system. The flow curves in this brochure

https://hayward-pool-assets.com/asse...f?fromCDN=true

Show that the SP1750 1/2 hp pump is making about 35 GPM at 30'. That pump might still need throttled to get down to 27 GPM on my system. It also shows that this pump makes about 40 GPM at 25'. Almost exactly what I read the 1 hp pump makes on low. Is 27 GPM enough flow for a manual vacuum head to be effective? I'm certain the 18" filter is plenty big enough for my pool, but it looks like there is no pump small enough to properly operate that filter. It looks like even the 21" filter needs to be throttled on my system - because there is so little piping restriction - to get down to a 12 GPM/sqft flow rate. A one half hp pump would be fine and dandy for a 21" above ground filter system, and Hayward is marketing a 1.5 hp 18" system. Makes me shake my head in confusion.

You have to look at the flow/head tables. 1/2 HP vs 1.5 HP doesn't necessarily mean ANYTHING, because of all the games they play with horsepower ratings.

One of the things I've dreamed about, is setting up a pair 'Consumer Reports' type test pools, to test various pumps, valves and filters and then publishing the results. Doing so would provide objective data about that equipment that is not currently available.

Well, one thing is for sure - I now know more than I thought I wanted to about pool filter systems. I can't find much (in some cases - any) flow/head info on AGP pool pumps. I emailed Hayward and asked for that information specifically about the 1 hp 2 speed PowerFlo Matrix. We'll see where that leads.

At this point, I'm planning on the S210T Pro Series filter and the SP15922S PowerFlo Matrix pump. If I was sure I could still vacuum effectively (with a manual vacum), I'd strongly consider the SP1750 1/2 hp pump. We are leaving for a few days of vacation this month and I'm going to wait till we get back to order.

I think the system above will clean my pool in about half the time it takes my current system. If I throttle the pump so there's no sand washed out on high, then only use high for backwash and vacuum, this system ought to be a good one. My 14" filter has about 1.06 sq.ft of filter area, the S201T has more than double that. I think I'll be running about the same GPM - if you believe Intex propaganda. I know the Intex system I have blows stuff through the sand.

Am I kidding my self?

Power-Flow II flow / head ratings, including SP1750

https://i.imgur.com/iM37D6h.jpg

Also from https://www.hayward-pool.com/shop/en...ii-a-pppow2--1
https://i.imgur.com/yLGqTez.jpg

BTW, the KW rating in the first image is nominal, not actual. I can't find actual amps at load for this pump ANYWHERE.

Thanks! Now if I could just get the same info - including low speed - for the PowerFlo SP15922S. I suspect the "Power-Flow II" and "PowerFlo Matrix" tables and charts all have very similar numbers, but I don't know that.

I'm worried that the SP1750, when the vacuum hose and vacuum head are attached, will not have enough flow to vacuum the pool floor. I don't know how much additional head the vacuum adds and I don't know how much flow is needed for vacuuming. I have this head

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

If the SP15922S on low has performance similar to the SP1750, and it won't vacuum on low, I can turn it on high, then throttle the flow as necessary.

I got a response from Hayward today. It was really helpful.

What I sent:
"Sent: 06/07/2018
I am installing a new filter system in my pool. I'm considering the
> SP15922S PowerFlo Matrix 1 HP Dual-Speed pump. Where can I find
> performance curves for high and low speeds?"

Their response:
"Thank you for your email inquiry. The only
information we have for this pump, is what we offer on our website.
WWW.HAYWARD-POOL.COM. I will speak with my leads, and see if we have
any performance curves for this model pump."

I guess they either don't know what their products will do, or they have some reason to keep me from knowing.

They advertise performance on 'premium pumps'. They advertise price on AG pumps. It wouldn't do have data showing that 'premium' pumps didn't have any real performance advantage. I suspect they DO have some advantage, but not that much.

Regardless, you can be SURE the MARKETING department controls what the ENGINEERING department releases!

That said, I'm told many AG pumps are a pain to clean and service, but I'm not sure if that's because of the pump, or the location and piping.

I know you can't say for sure without seeing and measuring and,,, but in your opinion, Will the Hayward 1 hp 2 speed pump, paired with the 21" Hayward filter be a reasonably good system? Would the 1/2 hp pump be any better? Again, I understand you can NOT say for sure - one way or the other. But,?,?,?

It seems like it can't be too bad since Hayward sells a system that has the 1 hp pump paired with an 18" filter.

And by the way, a Hayward 1 hp 2 speed Super Pump is about twice the cost of the PowerFlo Matrix 1 hp 2 speed.

https://www.amazon.com/Hayward-SP260...ds=SP2607X102S

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...=AGOKDG42D8KUC

Just pulled the trigger on this pump:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Sold by: Amazon.com Services, Inc.
$258.55
Condition: Used - Like New

Yup, it's a gamble, but it's less than half price and less than the Hayward 1hp 2 speed new, and it's from Amazon, so I "should" be able to return it if I need to.

I also ordered a Hayward S210T filter along with various fittings, valves and accessories.

I'm getting ready to have the mostest sparklingest Intex pool in the DFW area, thanks to PoolSolutions, PoolForum, and the PoolDoc.

What is the best way to connect the hard piping to the pool wall fittings? Since the walls flex and move a considerable distance, there needs to be a flexible connection. I think 1-1/2" reinforced vinyl tubing is what I need, but I'm not sure.

Would this work? https://www.lowes.com/pd/EASTMAN-1-1...ose/1000365073

I'd look at this:
1.5" ID 70 psi Braided Flexible Chemical Resistant PVC Tubing
instead.

Flex PVC, like you found at Lowes varies a lot in quality, and I have never discovered how to tell the good stuff (rare) from the junk (common). The typical stuff, which I've purchased from SCP wholesale supply, gets pinholes after a year or so.

The reinforced flex is made for insert fittings and clamps, but can be glued if you are very careful. It tends to not maintain a perfectly round cross-section, so you have to be careful when you insert it.

Maybe you and Brokk can work out a 'works-for-everybody' method of plumbing to Intex-type pools?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PoolDoc

1.5" ID 70 psi Braided Flexible Chemical Resistant PVC Tubing

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Is exactly what I had in mind. I was unaware that it could successfully be glued. That's why I asked about the other stuff. Is it glued to a pvc hose barb or into a standard pvc slip fitting?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PoolDoc

'works-for-everybody' method of plumbing to Intex-type pools?

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,,, probably doesn't exist, but 'works-for handyfolk' is completely do-able. I full well intend to take lots of pictures and explain my processes and the thoughts behind them.

If you put it on a barbed fitting, use clamps.

If you glue it, just make sure that it fits in snugly and that you hold it in place for 90 seconds or more. Otherwise it will 'ooch' out. Also, a small bit before depending on it. I've glued it, but formulations vary and you want to make sure the tube YOU get will glue OK.

I have an "intex type" pool, a Splash super pool.

I have used the flex PVC that Pappy posted and it has worked well for 3 years without leaks...... yet. I'll watch for pinholes. I used barbed fittings with clamps and quick connect fittings everywhere I can think of (once you push the barbed fitting into the flex PVC, you'll never get it out again), they make it easy to take things apart for servicing or storage. I also use ball valves that come apart for servicing and use them as quick connections too.

Ever fitting and line I have used has come from Lowe's, except for the wall fittings. No leaks, no issues.

The fact that it was OK in the past, is no guarantee it will be now.

Lowes does not stick to a reliable or single source of product. And even brands you might think are OK, are not. I have a "Watts brand" 3/4" x 4" brass threaded nipple,t hat should have lasted 100 years. But Watts has gone from being a US company to a little US stuff and a lot of Chinese stuff. The nipple has a pinhole in the body, between the threads. Naturally, I had put it underground when I replaced my fathers pressure reducing valve . . . so it was a huge mess to repair.

Some Chinese made product is OK, but most of it suffers high rates of defects. That means 90% is OK, but if you are the 1 in 10 that gets the P. o. S., watch out!

Perhaps I can make an inner ferrule to help hold it round, similar to the insert in air brake compression fittings. I'd rather use the clear pvc if the quality is as good or better.

From a different thread:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PoolDoc

The WhisperFlo is almost certainly too big . . . unless you get at least a 24" sand filter.

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I expect to throttle the pump and/or run the pump on low. I have a valve for that purpose ordered. The owners manual has flow/head curves that show the pump moves 45 GPM max and about 15 GPM @ 20' on low. High speed moves 95 GPM max, 85 GPM @ 30' and about 22 GPM (close to what I need) 80'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PoolDoc

Look at the differencee between these bulkhead fittings:

Hayward SP1023 bulkhead fitting
Hayward SP1023G bulkhead fitting

Please let me know which bulkhead you use, and it works.

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The difference between SP1023 and SP1023G is the inclusion of a "sandwich washer" in addition to the standard washer with the -G. I think I'll be okay with the non-G fitting. If they leak, I'll order the sandwich washers (assuming I can) or return the non-G fittings and order G type.

https://i.imgur.com/MaA23cp.jpghttps...om/MaA23cp.jpg

This is what came with the SP1023 - non-G - bulkhead fitting from Amazon, in a sealed Hayward plastic bag: a bulkhead fitting, 1 backing nut, 2 rubber washers and 1 cork washer.

I'm not going to use the cork washer at all. I will use both rubber washers, one inside and the other outside. I don't think the outside will be necessary for sealing, but it will provide a cushion between the vinyl liner and the hard edge of the backing nut. I don't think there would be any advantage to a sandwich washer for me. If one had 2 layers, where the vinyl liner was supported by a metal or fiberglass shell, the sandwich washer might be useful in ensuring water couldn't get BETWEEN the layers.

Pretty sure you received the 'G' model. As best I can tell, it is a superset of the standard model.

I'd bet the brown ring is fiber, not cork, and is intended to allow you to tighten the fitting without twisting the liner. But you can probably accomplish the same thing by spraying a bit of silicone spray (like this: DuPont Teflon Non-Stick Dry-Film Lubricant )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PoolDoc

Pretty sure you received the 'G' model. As best I can tell, it is a superset of the standard model.

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I agree that the 'G' model is a superset. I can't say if what I got was the 'G' or not because I don't know for sure what the "sandwich washer" is. I envisioned a grommet-like rubber gasket that was basically a thick washer with a groove cut around the outside perimeter, almost to the inner diameter so the pool wall could be "sandwiched" in the groove.

A little further investigation at InYoPool shows this http://images.inyopools.com/cloud/im...650&height=650
as the non-'G' model and this http://images.inyopools.com/cloud/im...650&height=650
as the 'G' model.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PoolDoc

I'd bet the brown ring is fiber, not cork, and is intended to allow you to tighten the fitting without twisting the liner. But you can probably accomplish the same thing by spraying a bit of silicone spray (like this: DuPont Teflon Non-Stick Dry-Film Lubricant )

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The brown ring is definitely NOT real cork, it's a fibrous imitation cork. I was planning on mixing liquid dish soap 50/50 with water and putting a drop or two on both sides of the OUTSIDE rubber washer as a lubricant, rather than using silicone. I hadn't thought that the fiber washer might be intended as a lubricant pad.

While I was looking for a schedule 80 pvc supplier, I stumbled upon these people.

https://flexpvc.com/

They sell domestic flex pvc in several sizes by the foot or in rolls - with a lifetime limited warranty? Been in business since February, 2008. One BBB complaint. No BBB reviews. Not BBB accredited.

Hmmmmm.

I'd try them. The worst flex I've seen will probably last 2 years, and you can always fix pin-holes by draining and then putting a PVC coupling where the pinhole is located.

But they seem like they'd be in a position to know the 'good stuff' from the typical stuff.

The price isn't too much different, so I probably will. They recommend the black pipe, instead of white, if it will be exposed to the sun. It can be painted or wrapped (guess who sells wrap tape) to protect it from UV energy.

The pump came in today. Looks like an open box return, rather than "used: like new". There is no sign that it has ever been wired or plumbed. I'm going to post pictures showing the difference in the Intex .75 hp rated pump/motor and the Pentair .75 hp rated pump/motor. The Intex is rated at 120 V - 4.8 A MAX. The Pentair is rated at 120 V 4.7 A - - - on LOW. 14.6 A full load.

Do you have an amp meter? Can you check amps on both the Intex and the Hayward?

Can you use one of these: P3 P4400 Kill A Watt Monitor ?

You wouldn't by chance think that the label on the motor might be incorrect??? I do have an ammeter, but it's really a milliamp meter. I wonder how well the Kill a Watt tolerates being operated at or near max load. The Pentair is very close to the max rating when it's at full load. That would be an interesting bit of info. I wouldn't be scared to close the return valve completely on the Intex pump, because it only makes about 14 or 15 psi deadheaded (according to the Intex supplied pressure gauge).