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Hi, 18x40, 6ft steps, vermiculite bottom, live in PA. How long can you store a liner before installing? I would like to buy the liner now while on sale and install in the spring, will it hurt the liner if I store it in the house to sit that long? Also when installing what do you do for the opening at the stairs when fitting the liner using the shop vac to suck out all the air? Also if I have to patch the bottom what is the vermiculite to cement ratio for mixing?
Thanks, Terry
I don't believe storing it for lengths of time in a decently controlled environment will have many adverse effects on it. But I'd check with the manufacturer to be sure. Does the manufacture offer a summer and winter cut? If so you should know which one they used and install the liner accordingly. The manufacturer I worked with for years had two CAD settings. One for normal summer time installations where warm weather was expected to be the conditions (summer cut). Another for end of season and beginning of season installations where the conditions would be colder (winter cut).
The Stairs: (not nearly as easy as I'm describing, but these are the basics).
Prep:
First remove and strips and strip covers and the screws holding them in. Examine and ensure that whatever gasket type system is used beneath them is intact. If not remove old gasket and order new one, or blank gasket material to be modified. Apply the new gasket or new generic gasket. This is often done by simply gluing it on with a "spraytack" type aerosol glue. Make sure the screws will still hold the "strips" tight with new gasket on. Test a few and make sure they have "grip". Often times they strip because the are not "machined" screws with threaded female counter parts. The screws are usually simple wood type screws (tapered) and work by wedging themselves in as the screw tap gets wider. The same should be done for other openings. Removal of plate, screws, and examination of gasket. If your using a "blank" generic gasket material like a new strip of neoprene, then use an awl to poke holes in the gasket where the screw holes in the actual body of the stairs are located. Later on, passing a screw from the strip, through the liner, through the gasket, and into these holes can be a nightmare if the gasket is blank.
Make sure you mark left/right top/bottom with the vertical strips, some times the screw hole patters vary slightly even thought they appear uniform. If the strips have a 45 degree angle in them where they meet the bottom strip, the this isn't necessary since they can only go back on one way (if you pay attention to the which side is facing the pool). But on strips that are "square cut" to the bottom strip, make sure you know which is left or right and what their top or bottom was.
Sealing:
When you have an opening for steps in a pool they must be sealed off with duct tape while the pool is filling (to a certain level of course, not full). It's a little tricky and sometime requires building up a multiple thickness of tape the span the distance sometimes. If the liner is cut only slightly smaller the distance the wall section is away for the stair increases. I can't exactly describe how this is done. I've done this hundreds times and sometimes it looks horrendous. I would always warn my customers, "nothing is wrong" there's not duct tape all over your liner because something "tore" or "ripped". It's a trial and era process depending on the stair and liner. On a liner cut too small I've needed to place water bags at the foot of the stairs on the shallow end floor to hold it closer.
Everything has to be dry so get a good towel to dry the stairs and liner. Heat, humidity, and cold can all have an effect on how the duct tape works. I started using 200mph NASCAR tape, at the extra cost to make the going easier. Bottom line is, it's a large void that needs to be sealed completely in order for the vacuums to work.
Once they the strips (plates) are installed you can cut the vinyl away (flush), up close to the INSIDE of the strips. Don't cut on the outside (I know it sounds stupid but......), for god's sake please double check that your knife is on the inside . Do it from the "water" side of the pool, and with a little pressure against the fiberglass you should get a clean cut while using the strip as a "straight edge, and only leave a slight "scratch" or "score" so close to the strip (on the stair body) it's not seen. You have to do this because the water pressure with that whole piece of vinyl left in might elongate the screw holes, or pull all the vinyl out from under the strips. Sometimes If I felt a stair and/or liner might have problems I'd cut that large "U" shape out of the stairs and leave it in while filling the pool the rest of the way. That way I could still "manipulate the vinyl by pulling on this 1 foot section. But beware, eventually your now cutting the vinyl "flush" with your strips under the water. A good mask and a steady had are must. Install any "cover plates" now while there's no water in the pool. After you've got it sealed off with the tape and the liner is sucking with vacuums with no wrinkles, you begin to fill the pool.
Filling/water level:
All fittings (except a main drain) are cut in when most of the "stretch" is out of the liner , this includes stair openings. Each fitting and its placement is what determines when it can be "cut in". Essentially the liner stretches 90% when full in the deep end and then partially the shallow end. After that the straight and uniform wall section isn't being "yanked down" but more pushed outwards.
It takes experience to know exactly when a stair should be cut in. But essentially you want "some" water in the shallow end. Ideally enough to seat the bottom corner that transition from the wall to the "floor". Once there's sufficient weight on that shallow end floor it will stop "pulling" extra material from the wall sections, that's when the stair are cut in. At this point the vacuums can be removed, since there's little chance of wrinkling or "shifting" of the liner as the water uniformly rises up the walls. Filling to just barely below the bottom "strip" of the stairs is usually a standard good guess. That you can work on installing this lowest of the strips with out being under water (in certain circumstances it's sometimes necessary to do this).
Installing Strips:
So now you've got that 3-6 inches of water on the shallow end, that's just below the bottom strip on the stairs. It appears the of the wall is fairly well stretched into where it meets the floor. It doesn't stretch in all the way at a 90 degree angle like a folder peice of paper, it never does, but it's there good. Since the water is on the shallow end the vacuums can be removed. Along with the duct tape that held the stairs airtight.
Now you'll need to seal the stairs with the strips, then cut the the vinyl out. Never cut the vinyl then try and install the strip, no matter how much easier it may seem, that goes for a return plate (the little circle) and skimmer plates. This is the hardest part of doing vinyl stairs. You might need an extra hand to hold the bottom strip up on one end as you work with it. You need to start at either extreme end of the bottom strip. Place a screw in the last crew hole of the bottom strip. Find it's correct corresponding hole in the gasket. Now the tricky part, you have to probe around gently with your fingers on the vinyl and look for that hole (or mark) in the gasket. Push the screw through the vinyl (while in strip), and into the gasket and eventually the stairs. Too low and there's a hole in your liner, too high and and you'll have to try again lower.
Now your putting this first screw in, while ankle deep in water, and working from one side of the vinyl to the other, it's as high as your shallow end walls are when your standing. So your feeling, getting up and looking, feeling again, looking, and so forth. You can, very very very very carefully, cut a "fat" U shaped section of the stair vinyl out. Staying a good 1 foot away from the side and bottom strips. Essentially removing a portion but not nearly all the vinyl that will eventually be cut away. This will release the tension on the bead (hook part that attaches into the "track"), and allow you to see better, as now there is a way of getting your head down in there and looking.
So you've got your first bottom strip screw in. Holding the bottom strip equal with the height of the gasket and stair holes, should allow you to much more easily find the next hole. And the next, and so on. After 4 or 5 or in, there's not much way the others can't find their correct placement. Now you've been doing these first few by hand with a regular screw driver. You might be able to switch to a cordless drill with a bit in it. But set the clutch in the drill at the lowest possible setting that allows you to drive the screws (if they're not machine screws, and they are wood type screws, and go carefully. Last thing you want to do is spin one in too hard and have it loose. It can happen very easily if they wood type screws (tapered). They're only going into fiberglass usually. Each time they are taken in and out the hole widens and the screw has less ability to be tightened, before it begins to spin.
Often times while we did this we "stepped" down on the vinyl in the bottom corner underneath each screw (even the first one). Stretching it just a bit further so if there's additional pressure from the pool filling the rest of the way it has some material. Now the verticals strips can be installed the same way. But now since you have a starting point (the bottom strip) it's much easier to find that "first" screw.
Now considering all I've said so far, here's the thing. If that bottom corner where the wall transitions to the floor is not sufficiently stretched in, and you install the stairs strips and start to refill the pool, this is what can happen: The liner begins to pull on the vinyl and if the "clamping" type pressure of the strip isn't sufficient, it will begin to pull on the weakest part. The screw holes :eek: They'll elongate and become oval and stretch to the point were they outside (below) the strip, and leak. You'll have as many holes in your liner as their are screws. And they don't patch well since they run up against the strip.
A couple notes:
If you poke a hole in the liner installing the bottom strip that's a bit too low, all is not lost. You can pull up on the liner a bit and install the whole strip that way. Thus moving the hole either to an actual spot where there's a screw or behind the strip and sandwiched in the gasket area. If the strip is clamped tight enough the additional pressure when the pool fills the rest of the way, will only uniformly pull on the vinyl. Now if it's 3 inches below the strip your sort of sunk. But 1/2 inch or less, you should still be able to salvage the liner. You can pull up in only that section, but this sometime creates a slanted wrinkle under the stairs.
If the stairs are within 1 foot of a corner, you've got a whole set of different circumstances on your hands. Now you've got the same dynamic happening vertically on one side. Namely water pressure seating in a corner properly. On top of that, the "seating" isn't uniform like on the floor, since the water going up the side wall isn't the same in a the corner of a wall. You may need some one (or possible two) to push the vinyl into that corner while install the strip adjacent to it. There might even appear to be "extra" vinyl after doing this, or even a "crease" or "loose" area of vinyl. As the pool fills and recreates the stretching (permanently) that you performed, the extra liner or wrinkle will be stretched tight.
If you cut that "U" shaped section out of the vinyl while installing, sometimes the release in pressure can cause the top tile pattern to "sag" as it reaches the stairs. As your installing the vertical strips, do it from the bottom screws up. As you get to the screws that are just below and in the tile pattern pull up on the 1 foot of extra vinyl "inside" the stairs as you install these screws. This will remove that slight "sag" in the tile pattern. Step back and take a look at it as a person pulls up on to gauge it, it's hard to tell if it's straight when your up close.
If it rains, while the stairs are sealed off and the vacuums are running, you'll probably lose the seal, and need to turn the water off and re-tape the stairs. If there's any chance of rain keep a close eye on the stairs.
Conclusion:
These are all very basic "instructions". Each stair, it's gaskets, strips (plates if you may) the screws, can all have their own individual problems or techniques for replacing them. Until you run into them all (and you never do), there's a lot that's unknown. Prep for everything. Extra screws, extra gasket material etc. Every pool , it's wall height, location of stairs, can make a difference too. Be patient, and go carefully. If there's too much water in the pool, drain it down. Don't struggle or "force" he vinyl to do what it can't.
The dimensions of the liner can make all the difference in the world. One too big seems easier to work with, but can be hard to make the wall sections tight and not have wrinkles. A liner made too small, and it's near impossible to seal the stairs off with duct tape.
I'm not going to mince words, this is one the hardest things to do properly in a vinyl replacement. Its not only that but it has the largest potential of going terribly wrong too. The void and it's seal your creating if not done properly, cannot be patched.
I always used Pre-Mix PoolBase. Should be cheaper to do your own though.
Found a few sights with info on ratios and estimating material:
http://www.poolwarehouse.com/swimmingpooltips.html
http://www.dupre-vermiculite.co.uk/v...pplicpools.htm