Considerable water under pump housing...

1. This is for a 1 hp magnatek centurion motor ( I believe a. o. smith owns them) attached to a hayward pump housing for an inground pool. Did hayward use magnatek motors at one time or is this a special setup the pool installers used? I have a part number off the motor and a 3 letter "Form" designation KJM. I can see the stamped hayward tag on the pump but can't make out any numbers. I'm not sure, therefore, that I have enough information to be able to track down shaft seal, housing and diffuser gaskets for this setup.

2. If there is enough water that it is running under much of the pump/motor and off the concrete pad would this indicate that the likely problem is the housing gasket rather than the shaft seal? Could there be a lot of water leaking out with a shaft seal problem?

3. Is there a way to distinguish whether the problem is the shaft seal or the housing gasket? Would I be better off seeing if I can simply tighten the 4 bolts connecting the motor to the seal plate to see if the problem goes away before I do anything else or is this a bad idea? If it ceases to leak at that point am I safe or is there still a danger? Any water getting into the motor housing because of a faulty shaft seal would leak onto the ground wouldn't it (i.e. there is no danger of a leak at the shaft not being noticeable from outside the motor is there)?

4. This motor is about 7 years old, but it isn't heavily used. I run it only a couple of hours a day at most for 4 months a year because the pool is seldom used.

If I disconnect the motor from the pump housing do I need to replace the shaft seals and gaskets regardless of the suspected problem? I'm concerned that if the shaft seal isn't the problem, and I tamper with it, that it will become a problem.

I know its a lot of questions. Thanks for taking the time to read it.

First off - check your pump drain plug, it could be that...
Retightening the 4 bolts to see if they were loose is not a problem.
Whether or not it's the housing or shaft seal is hard to tell, depending on how damaged the shaft seal is, it could also leak a lot, however, if it's the shaft seal, then the pump should only drain about half way if left off and no supply can get into it.

Finch, sorry you're having pump problems:(
All you need is the pump model to get the seals/ gaskets (if it's a superpump, the numbers are SP 1600 C-Z-2 for the seal assy, SP 1600 R for the diffuser gasket and SP 1600 T for the housing gasket) - the motor manufacturer doesn't come into play.
I haven't been able to figure out which piece is causing the leak - however, when I have to replace a motor, I install a new shaft seal and bring a housing gasket which I'll switch out if the old one doesn't appear to have much 'meat' left to it. (quick asside for anyone who thinks I'm just trying to separate some poor pool owner from their hard earned $ - experience has taught me that the seal assys will usually fail once the impeller has been removed, even if it's new and has only been in for 5 min:eek: - so i change it (~$15) to save the owner another $65 in labor charges for me to rip the pump back apart and then change it). As a note, if you think you may just need the housing gasket, as long as you do not remove the impeller the seal assy will not be affected by pulling the housing apart, you can try to just replace the housing gasket, reassemble the pump and see if the leak is still there (BTW - the diffuser gasket won't cause the pump to leak, you'll just be wasting HP).
I wish you well with this project, let me know what pump you have and I can give you the model numbers for the different replacement parts (I gave you the ones for superpumps)

Thank you both for the replies.

I'm confident it isn't the drain plugs. I tried snugging the housing bolts. The two upper bolts took 1/8-1/4 turn but I didn't want to over torque them so I didn't strong arm it. I ran it for a few minutes and, if anything, the leak is worse now. I can't see exactly where it is coming from because it is coming from underneath and the mounting foot is in the way. It does seem to be coming from around the seal plate.

If it was the shaft seal would the water be coming from the motor housing itself rather than from around the seal plate?

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I feel stupid for thinking that different motors could affect the shaft seal. The shaft would have to be a particular size for a given pump model regardless of motor. Still, better to look foolish than run into problems once the thing is apart:)

On the pump model the problem is that there is no model number on the pump housing. There is only a small stamped plate that says hayward and is otherwise unreadable no matter how I shine light on it or try to take a rubbing of it with a pen and paper. The strainer cover does have sp-1600-D on it and the basket SP-1600-M and it does look like the super pump so I'm assuming it is a 1600 series super pump. Are these two item numbers enough to be able to determine what I need? I looked up the parts list at hayward for the spx 1600 and it suggests 1600 models were made as far back as the early 80s so it looks like this makes sense. Are the SPX and SP parts interchangeable or have there been significant changes made to 1600 models over the years?

When I put the motor back on how tight should I make the 4 screws? I don't have a torque wrench. Should I just hand tighten and then snug them 1/4 turn or should I give it more than that, say 1/2 turn? I have a feeling it is easy to crack the housing or seal plate if one goes crazy with it.

Quote:

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I feel stupid for thinking that different motors could affect the shaft seal. The shaft would have to be a particular size for a given pump model regardless of motor. Still, better to look foolish than run into problems once the thing is apart

On the pump model the problem is that there is no model number on the pump housing. There is only a small stamped plate that says hayward and is otherwise unreadable no matter how I shine light on it or try to take a rubbing of it with a pen and paper. The strainer cover does have sp-1600-D on it and the basket SP-1600-M and it does look like the super pump so I'm assuming it is a 1600 series super pump. Are these two item numbers enough to be able to determine what I need? I looked up the parts list at hayward for the spx 1600 and it suggests 1600 models were made as far back as the early 80s so it looks like this makes sense. Are the SPX and SP parts interchangeable or have there been significant changes made to 1600 models over the years?

When I put the motor back on how tight should I make the 4 screws? I don't have a torque wrench. Should I just hand tighten and then snug them 1/4 turn or should I give it more than that, say 1/2 turn? I have a feeling it is easy to crack the housing or seal plate if one goes crazy with it.

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:)

1 - don't feel stupid in asking that question - while it might make Eli Whittney shudder, it's not hard to imagine different motor manufacturers using different sized or threads per inch - all the pump maker would have to do is have a couple different impellers to match the threads on the motor they were mating with - but the pump manufacturers said 'this is our pump, make your motor match it or we'll find someone who will'

2 - SP 1600-T is the same as SPX1600-T the "X" is printed on the boxes and bags that replacement parts come in to the best of my knowledge (they have recently changed the mounting and matching seal plates - there is also the 2600 series which will take the 1600 gaskets). The diffusers are matched to the impeller/ motor HP - a larger HP impeller will not work in a difuser for lower HP.

3 - You would be hard pressed to crack the motor mounting plate by hand. If you use power drivers you can torque the bolt in enough to dig in to the plate, but that just makes it harder to get a grip on the bolt in the future. As a rule; tighten it enough to make it 'uncomfortable' to get more turn out of it with 2 fingers on the wrench.

If you go after the shaft seal, ask me and I'll tell you a little more about the change-out (or any one of a few dozen folks here could give you the same info) - make sure that you know how the 2 pieces are supposed to go on the impeller and into the sealing plate, or you'll be doing it again within a week.

Again good luck - if I can help more, just ask

Ok, that didn't solve it.

I was careful to wipe the surfaces clean with a damp cotton cloth and I followed your instructions for tightening.

1. Is there much chance I overtightened? I also tried backing off a quarter turn and that didn't help.


I can see water running in a near stream from the very bottom center around the seal plate. I can't tell if it is from the wet or dry side of the plate. I see no water coming from anywhere else around the seal plate.
I guess I need to replace the shaft seal assembly at this point.
2. Is the leak I am describing consistent with a failed shaft seal?

3. The hayward parts list shows seal assembly 1600Z2. Is this different from 1600CZ2?

4. Do I need to replace the new housing gasket and replace it any time I pull the pump apart or can I use the one I just put on?

5. Would it hurt anything to put plumbers grease on the housing gasket?

I have read that I need to be very careful not to get any grease on or touch the ceramic and certain portions of the seal.
Any tips you can give on the shaft assembly replacement would be welcome. Is this something that is difficult to do right or are my chances good of fixing this leak properly?

Finch, sorry the housing gasket didn't solve the leak. Next step is to look at the seal assy and the inside of the pump housing - sorry, I completely ignored the fact that the housing itself could be cracked:o . You obviously know how to get the housing apart and back together as you changed the housing gasket. This time take a look at the inside of the housing for any obvious cracks in the body (it's unlikely, but possible that the body failed) - if you find no cracks, it's time for the SP 1600 Z 2 (my bad- there is another part that has the "C" before the "Z 2") This thread covers a lot of what you'll need to do - the difference is that you'll use the 7/16" wrench to 'lock' the shaft while unscrewing the impeller. Once the impeller is off the seal plate will 'fall off' the mounting plate. Inside the seal plate is a ceramic and rubber seal - to get it out, turn it face down and put a flat head screwdriver on the back edge and 'knock it out'. The part on the impeller you want to take a good look at so you'll be able to put the new one on correctly - know which end goes towards the impeller and which goes against the ceramic piece! I always lube the rubber on the seal plate piece and also the impeller piece - it doesn't hurt and things go together a little nicer (... more nicely?) Screw the impeller back on, using the 7/16 wrench to hold the shaft - hand tight should be enough, but 1/8 turn extra with a wrench won't hurt (DO NOT GO 'CAVEMAN' on the impeller!!) Reassemble the pump as you did when changing the housing gasket (the housing gasket should still be good - as long as the visible part of it isn't flattened to the housing - & yes non petrolium grease will only help it). I think I've covered it all - however, there is thisthread wherein Tenax gives his experience and warnings.

If you need any clarification on this - please ask :)
p.s. Please !! be sure to have the power off to the pump when working on it... but you know that