Do borate products (Supreme, Optimzier, etc.)work as claimed?

Several companies are selling sodium tetraborate pentahydrate as a pool additive under such names as Proteam's Supreme, Bioguard's Optimizer plus, and others. Several claims have been made for these products when used in a 30-50 ppm concentration such as:
1) more stable pH
2) Algaestatic properties
3) reduced chlorine usage
4) silkier feeling water--less skin and eye irritation
5) clearer, 'sparkling' water

I recently added sodium tetraborate decahydrate (20 mule team borax) to my pool to a 50 ppm concentration and adjusted the pH accordingly (just like is needed with the commercial products) and after three weeks can give some preliminary answers!

1) more stable pH--resounding yes here. I normally need to add acid every three weeks with my SWG because my pH is 8.0....my pH climbed much more slowly and is only at 7.7 after 3 weeks. I am waiting on adding acid to see how long it takes to go higher.

2) Algaestatic properties--unable to determine. Never had algae since the SWG went online and my phosphates are between 2000-3000 ppb

3) reduced chlorine usage--this one might be a yes...it took me by surprise. My swg usually maintains a 4 ppm fc with a setting of 10%. My FC has been running at 5.5 ppm and I just lowered my SWG down to 6% to see where it puts my FC AND my pool had heavier usage during this period because of visiting family (with little kids!)

4) silkier feeling water--less skin and eye irritation--although subjective this one appears to be a yes. My nephew, his wife, and their three kids (3,7 and 9 years old) were visiting for a week and they all commented on how silky (their words) the water felt. The kids said it didn't hurt their eyes like most pools do (they spent whole days in the pool) and my nephew's wife commented on how her hair didn't dry flat like it usually does after swimming in a pool. She told me that she has been in pools with SWGs before and the water was not like this. She asked what I put into the water to make it feel that way.

5) clearer, 'sparkling' water--another subjective one but I would have to say yes. I usually have to vacumn my pool every 3 weeks or a bit more often. I usually get a bit of dirt that collects near the main drain and along one side of the deep end. After 3 weeks the pool floor is still pretty clean so I am going to see how long I can go. Also, I usually have to change out my skimmer socks weekly. I am on week 2 of the same sock now....just had to pull some leaves out of the skimmer. The water does have a 'sparkle' to it. Some of my neighbors have commented on it as well.
The pool does seem to be clearer and 'bluer' looking but, like I said, this is subjective. At night when the lights are on the water also seems to have more 'sparkle' and clarity.

I will continue to monitor and post my test results in this thread
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=4712
for anyone interested in the details.

What have I concluded so far as to whether tetraborate products live up to the claims made for them?
A definite YES for claims 1, 4, and 5!
A possible YES for claim 3. I will be monitoring this one closely!
Can't really tell for claim 4 but this is why borates were used as a pool additive in the first place so I think this one might have some merit based on some research I have done on the internet about borates as a herbacide and algaecide.

BTW, the cost of adding the borates to my 6600 gal pool (and 300 gal spa) was about $35 and that was for 6 boxes of borax (didn't need all 6), 2 gallons of acid, and a jar of borate test strips.

I suspect one of the reasons you're seeing less chlorine consumption is that the boron is keeping some of the organics in check. Most marine diesels around here add boron based products to the fuel to keep fungus from growing. If it will kill fungus that lives in diesel fuel it's bound to kill some of the buggers in a pool.

I'm very tempted to add borax to my pool, but I'm put off by the idea of using a bunch of HCl to bring my already high pH back down. What would be wrong with adding boric acid? Would I get a different result?

I do know that some of the montly and weekly treatments that are used with borates contain both tetraborates and boric acid or sodium bisulfate (dry acid) so the pH rise does not occur. Proteam's Weekly Treat is an example that contains tetraborates and dry acid but it is supposed to be used in a pool that already has the borates added just to help maintain levels lost by backwashing. Also, Salt Water Magic montly by Natural Chemisty also contains both tetraborate and boric acid for the same reason. I suspect the problem is that boric acid is not that soluable in the amount neededand by itself would probably have negative impact on the ph as well that is not as easy to adjust.
I just added the tetraborate (borax) and the acid since this is what you would do if you were adding Supreme or Optimizer (or one of the other commercial products) to the pool initially.
Adding the acid is pretty easy, for each 4lb 12 oz box of borax first put 5 cups of acid into the water and then add the borax....then add 5 cups more acid and another box of borax until you reach the target level. For more precise dosing read these two posts
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showpos...8&postcount=21
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showpos...7&postcount=22
Just remember to add enough acid first to neutralize the pH of approx 10 lbs of borax added at a time and then alternate adding the acid and borax until you reach your target.

I posted some info on the other tetraborate thread, but I did find this WHO document full of some useful information. It would appear that, at least in simulated seawater, 100 ppm is more effective in inhibiting or killing algae than 50 ppm, but pool water is not sea water. There seems to be no question that Boric Acid (or its borate ion) inhibit growth of several kinds of microorganisms, but I just find it suprising to see the relatively large drop in chlorine usage that Evan (waterbear) has noticed so far. Most chlorine loss is during the day due to breakdown from sunlight (UV) so to truly cut down chlorine consumption significantly a substance has to prevent this loss. My concern would be that the mechanism for this (if it exists) could be similar to CYA and that could mean a reduction in chlorine effectiveness.

Also, with regard to adding a bunch of HCl to the pool, remember that the combination of adding Borax and Muriatic Acid gives you the boric acid you want plus salt (NaCl). That is, the end result is nothing nearly as toxic as the original HCl you started with. It's kind of like adding Muriatic Acid (HCl) with Lye (NaOH) to produce salt and water. You can't think of the result of mixing toxic chemicals as producing a toxic result. I agree that Muriatic Acid is a bit of a pain to handle, but using gloves and holding one's breath or looking away should be sufficient precaution (wearing glasses would be an extra safety factor in case of splashing of drops).

Richard

ChemGeek, If you've read my other posts you know that I actually like muriatic acid and get into the pool when I add it. (Goggles on.) My pool drinks the stuff by the gallon. I'm only interested in adding boric acid because as far as I can tell I get exactly the same result without having to use (pay for, measure, etc.) muriatic acid. Call me a purist?

WB, welcome to the forum! As you are new to both pool ownership and the forum, I suggest you read all the 'stickies' at the top of each topic and give poolsolutions a good read. Caring for a pool doesn't have to be hard, if you follow the guidlines here you can all but eliminate the problems that so many pool owners experience. In the future , it might help to post in the correct area, (I see that this one is in the 'bathing suits and loungechair section') as that will allow more people who could answer your question to see it.
With reguard to your question, I'll have to pass this on to Evan, he's currently conducting an experiment on his own poolwhich almost mirrors your querry. With any luck, he'll know what's going on (he really knows his shi*). BTW, I don't really know anything about pools, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. :p


Seriously, thanks to your 'experiment' and comments (findings), I think I'll start refering to Proteam by their rightful name - again, thanks Evan for all you do here and all the great help you provide!! :) - Ted

Ted,
What can I say...I've always liked chemistry sets and now have a 6600 gallon one in my backyard!:D

Seriously though, it was your rant on Proteam in the china shop a while back that got me thinking about trying this since we sell the Proteam line where I work. The products in their line that I have used I have been very pleased with (Metal Magic is a prime example) but I had my own doubts about the claims for Supreme (and I distrust ANYTHING Bioguard says!) I really didn't expect the results to be so successful and time will tell if it works over the long haul. Unfortunately, I can't recommend borax at work but I have turned many of my customers on to this forum. The other ones (that just want a magic bottle for their pool problems) I can now recommend Supreme to because I know it will help.

I've looked at Evan and Richard's discussion regarding the dosage of borax and HCl per 1000 gallons. If they've got their numbers right it would mean a 22,000 gallon pool would require 17 boxes of borax and 5 gallons of muriatic acid. That sounds about right compared to the ProTeam Supreme dosage instructions. But that's more than $100 worth of chemicals. Cheaper than Proteam Supreme but I think I'll hold off for a bit and see if the Waterbear is still seeing good results after a week.

So, Evan, I've been waiting with bated breath. Does your pool still hold chlorine better than it did before you added Borax? Is the pool still sparklier and less eye-stingy? Can we call this technique "ProBear Supreme?"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sailork

I've looked at Evan and Richard's discussion regarding the dosage of borax and HCl per 1000 gallons. If they've got their numbers right it would mean a 22,000 gallon pool would require 17 boxes of borax and 5 gallons of muriatic acid. That sounds about right compared to the ProTeam Supreme dosage instructions. But that's more than $100 worth of chemicals. Cheaper than Proteam Supreme but I think I'll hold off for a bit and see if the Waterbear is still seeing good results after a week.

So, Evan, I've been waiting with bated breath. Does your pool still hold chlorine better than it did before you added Borax?
Seems to be
Is the pool still sparklier and less eye-stingy?
Yes, the water seems clearer (I can notice it at night with the lights on) and it doesn't seem to irritate. They only way I can describe it is 'sliky'
Can we call this technique "ProBear Supreme?"

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LOL....you need to give Richard some credit also...how about "Probear SuGeek"?:D

After 6 weeks of 50 ppm borates in my pool I can say that I am satisfied that it does live up to 4 of the 5 claim made for it based on my experience with it!

1) more stable pH--after 6 weeks my pH seemed to be holding steady at 7.6-7.7 and I put in 6 oz. of acid to drop it back to 7.5 today. Before the borates I would put in 24 oz of acid every 3 weeks to drop the pH after climbing to 7.8 or 8.0.

2) Algaestatic properties--still unable to determine. Never had algae since the SWG went online and my phosphates are between 2000-3000 ppb. From what I have read and researched this would appear to be true, however.

3) reduced chlorine usage--seems to be a yes. Have lowered my SWG output to 4% today! After a week at 5% my FC was still 7 ppm. Before the experiment I was running it at about 8%-10% to maintain about 5 ppm FC. Other factors could be at play here but I have not been able to determine them.

4) silkier feeling water--less skin and eye irritation--although subjective this one appears to be a yes. The water does feel silky and is, IMHO less irritating than before!

5) clearer, 'sparkling' water--another subjective one but I would have to say yes. I have to vacumn less often and I don't have to change skimmer socks weekly. They are good for 2 weeks now.
The water is definitely clearer looking when the lights are on at night. Perhaps this is tied in with the lower chlorine demand and the algaestatic properties. I am thinking that if algae doesn't start to grow then less chlorine is used. Perhaps algae is always trying to grow in a pool and the chlorine is killing it and the stuff I was vacumning and collecting in the skimmer sock was dead algae. Would appreciate any feedback on this theory.

Would I recommend putting borates in the water to 50 ppm? From my experience so far it would be a resounding yes!
Would I recommend a product like Supreme or Optimizer? No. You can achieve the same results with plain old borax, which is what I did! The cost is considerably less.:D