Re: Help chemical balance whacked

I suggest that you look outside your narrow-minded box and do more research of your own. I've had a vinyl pool for years. We have used both Baquacil and chlorine. There may be tried and true ways of getting rid of algae without algecides, but leaving your chlorine above 15 ppm for a long number of days can also cause larger problems in the long run, stabilizer or not. Using an algaecide is also a tried and true method of dealing with algae. Almost all regular maintainance programs have you use one. I have dealt with more than one pool care specialist and swimming pool chemical company and have done a lot of research about pool problems on webssites other than this (believe it or not there are other ones out there just as reputable and as useful as you). All other research and discussion that I have had with ppl care specialists for the last 10+ year agree that high PH can lead to algae blooms and once you get an algae bloom it is harder to bring the PH down. (I have had many algae problems in the past.) Lowering the PH to the normal range actually helps make it easier for the chlorine to work more efficiently, does less damage to your pool, and weakens the algae...to a degree...thus making it easier to kill off. If you don't believe me, maybe you should do more research. I also thought that the point of this forum was to share information, from person to person, about methods that have worked for us. I know that this algaecide, whatever the ingredients, have knocked down our algae bloom quicker than any other sanitizer or other product out there, have kept it down, and have allowed us to balance our pool more quickly and efficiently than in past years. Which is obviously better for the pool in the long run or there wouldn't be basic guidlines for your levels. If you don't believe in my methods, check out the information copied from a few other websites.

Once algae has been allowed to bloom, it is quite tiresome to destroy. The common steps to get rid of an algae problem are:

Shock treat the pool. If you are using chlorine, aim for at least 10ppm free chlorine (10 times the recommended minimum level).
Circulate the water round the clock if possible.
Brush the pool and vacuum.
Add a commercial algaecide prepared for the algae you have (green, mustard or black) according to the instructions.
Repeat brushing and vacuuming daily if possible. Add more chlorine if the level falls below 5ppm.
Clean or backwash your filter regularly.

www.poolwizard.net

Select a Problem Green Algae Chlorine Odor Cloudy Water Corrosion of Metal Parts Discolored Water Eye & Skin Irritation Foaming Scale Scum Too Much Availabile Chlorine



Problem: Green Algae

Symptom
• Slippery pool surface
• Slimy walls
• Dull green water

Possible Causes
• Low free available chlorine
• High pH

Solution
1. Adjust pH to 7.2-7.4 with HTH® pH MinusTM or HTH® pH Plus® at least onehour before shocking.
2. Shock treat your pool water with an HTH Shock product.
3. Brush walls vigorously using the brush designed for your pool type.
4. Run filter for 24 hours or until water clears.
5. Vacuum.
6. Add an HTH® Algaecide.

Preventative Maintenance
• Maintain free available chlorine at 1.0-4.0 ppm
• Maintain pH in the 7.2-7.8 range
• Shock treat pool weekly

[COLOR="black"]www.hthpools.com[/COLOR]

Algae does not cause disease. It is a plant that turns sunlight and carbon dioxide into food and provides nutrients for bacteria which can then multiply rapidly (and may cause illness). When there is algae present in the pool water, the chlorine is used up rapidly trying to combat its growth. This process has a tendency to raise the pH, thus decreasing the efficiency of the remaining free chlorine.

Unchecked algae growth can turn the swimming pool cloudy or makes the pool water green and results in foul odours and tastes. Black algae, which is more difficult to control than green or blue-green algae, can also stain the swimming pool's walls and floor.

Prevention is better than cure. Adequate levels of free chlorine will prevent algae from growing out of control. When algae growth is noticed, it requires harsh treatment. Usually shock treatment with chlorine or an algaecide is recommended. If the pool has a mineral sanitiser such as the Pool Wizard installed, algae growth is a sign that you need a refill. Algae cannot grow in water sanitised with the Pool Wizard, provided the water is properly balanced.

www.havuz.org

TOO LATE TO PREVENT IT...HOW DO I KILL ALGAE?
A: First off, balance your water, paying particular attention to pH. Secondly, check your filter system and clean if necessary. Adjust valving for optimum circulation and allow it to run 24 hours a day until the pool clears. Turn on automatic cleaners to help stir things up. Backwash as necessary.

For suspended green algae, shock the pool...hard. Put in as much hypochlorite as it takes to turn the pool a cloudy, bluish/gray color. Brush the walls and floors towards the main drain. Backwash the filter when the pressure gauge indicates the need. Using a flocculent may be a good choice if the pool is extremely "swampy". If you cannot see the bottom of the pool, and it is filled with leaves and debris, it may be wise to drain the pool, acid wash and refill it.

After the chlorine level has come down below 5 ppm, add an algaecide and brush the pool again. When it all settles, vacuum the pool (to waste, if possible). Check and rebalance the pool water if necessary.

For algae which is not suspended, but only clinging to the walls, follow the same advice above, first shock with brushing, then add an algaecide, brush again, vacuum to waste (preferred) or vacuum and then backwash the filter. Use of a steel bristled brush is recommended for algae on plaster pools (use nylon brushes on vinyl). Filter, Filter, Filter.

For black algae, the brushing part is very important. You must tear through the protective layers so the chemicals can destroy the plant from the inside out. Pumice stones work well to knock off the heads of black algae. (Don't forget to vacuum them up later, and backwash them out of the filter ASAP). Also effective on the black algae nodules is sprinkling granular trichlor over the spots (of course if they're on the wall this is next to impossible). Rubbing the spots on the walls with a trichlor tablet or stick can also be effective to knock off the heads and get trichlor directly to the roots. Follow up with a dose of copper algaecide, or high strength polymers. Simazine, an herbicide, was a very effective black algae treatment, but is no longer available in America.

If algae has been an ongoing problem in your pool for several years, you may do well to drain the pool. Many years of algae builds up dead algae cells and lots of other solids in the water that contribute to its rejuvenation. Acid washing and/or pressure washing is preferable once drained, to kill the roots of the algae embedded in the plaster. NEXT: change the sand if you have a sand filter or change the cartridge if it is a cartridge type. Sand should be changed every 5-7 yrs (or every 2 if you use baquacil), and cartridge filters should have new elements every 1-2 years. If you have a DE filter (good for you!), you should remove the elements, spray clean, soak in a 10:1 water/bleach solution, rinse and replace. A well functioning filter will prevent algae.

Another item to look at is the method of sanitation and the type of filtering you have. Far too many pools out there were sold with marginal filter systems, meant to run 24 hrs per day. Well, these systems get old and tired, or the new owners only run it 12 hrs per day (or less). For good algae prevention, we need a combination of good filtration, sanitation and circulation. It may be time to consider changing the old pump and filter. It's cheaper and easier to pay a little up front for more chemicals, electricity or better equipment than all the money and aggravation spent on fighting algae blooms.

www.poolcenter.com

Hi, kat,

Nice rant!

Quote:

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(I have had many algae problems in the past.)

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that sorta' weakens your argument, doncha' think?

Hi, kat,

Nice rant!

Quote:
(I have had many algae problems in the past.)

that sorta' weakens your argument, doncha' think?
__________________
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Dave S.


Not really the purpse of that line is that I've tried a lot of different things in the past, pretty much every other product or process out there,including to just keep dumping sanitizer in and hope that it all sorts its self out as the others were saying, and this is what worked for me. I just think that it is a little rude for some to dismiss someone else's advice becuase it does not follow their one track thought process. What works for one person doesn't always work for another and I'm not claiming that this will one hundred percent work either, but as someone who has obviously been in the same situation, and has searched around for a good way to deal with it, I'm saying that this is one approach that worked for me. If you notice in my first post, I never once attacked ano of the other posts the way that some did mine, but that's fine. To each their own, and I'm sure that there are other forums out there that are just as helpful, and more dedicated to the freedom of speech and openly sharing opinions without attacking others because they did not one hundred percent agree with you. I'll just go find my information there instead. It lends itself to a more open forum where you can usually garner more useful information and alternative approaches in case that one set practice just doesn't happen to work for you.;)

BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!

Kat, you have just been given the hook! You now go to the Hall of Shame.

You have violated a WHOLE slew of rules for membership here, clearly you are selling a product which is NOT PERMITTED here. You haven't listed it in your signature, as required.

Finally, you don't know what you are talking about. The ONLY accurate thing you said was that high pH makes chlorine less effective. But you got cause and effect all mixed up.

JohnnyP:
Sorry about my having to move this--it has nothing to do with you. Carl

PoolDoc can decide what to do from here on in.

Yet another idiot trying to sell “ice to the Eskimos.” :p I really like how this miracle product uses the phrases “might” do this and “might” do that an awful lot. Kat, if you are not the peddler as it appears, then you should, as Evan suggested, look around the forum. You will discover that there are better and safer ways to deal with algae than to throw copper or other expensive crap at it.

Dave

PS- The Hall of Shame is becoming entertainment in itself.

I dunno, I kind of enjoy the narrow minded box...It has made my pool look better than ever, and saved me a ton of $$$ to do other things with, like the cool firepit set we got. I forgot how good s'mores were!

[QUOTE=katw78]I suggest that you look outside your narrow-minded box and do more research of your own. I've had a vinyl pool for years. We have used both Baquacil and chlorine. There may be tried and true ways of getting rid of algae without algecides, but leaving your chlorine above 15 ppm for a long number of days can also cause larger problems in the long run, stabilizer or not. Using an algaecide is also a tried and true method of dealing with algae. Almost all regular maintainance programs have you use one. I have dealt with more than one pool care specialist and swimming pool chemical company and have done a lot of research about pool problems on webssites other than this (believe it or not there are other ones out there just as reputable and as useful as you). All other research and discussion that I have had with ppl care specialists for the last 10+ year agree that high PH can lead to algae blooms and once you get an algae bloom it is harder to bring the PH down. (I have had many algae problems in the past.) Lowering the PH to the normal range actually helps make it easier for the chlorine to work more efficiently, does less damage to your pool, and weakens the algae...to a degree...thus making it easier to kill off. If you don't believe me, maybe you should do more research. I also thought that the point of this forum was to share information, from person to person, about methods that have worked for us. I know that this algaecide, whatever the ingredients, have knocked down our algae bloom quicker than any other sanitizer or other product out there, have kept it down, and have allowed us to balance our pool more quickly and efficiently than in past years. Which is obviously better for the pool in the long run or there wouldn't be basic guidlines for your levels. If you don't believe in my methods, check out the information copied from a few other websites.

Kat, were you having a bad day when you typed this? Rereading Waterbear's reply, he pointed out his issues with your response and suggested reading what the people here do and why, all in a nice way. You attacked him, telling him to think outside his narrow box - this was unjustified especially since he knows more about chemistry than any pool professional I've ever met (including myself)!
I don't know if you'll continue to participate on this forum, however I'll offer you a bit of advice that should fare you well here or anywhere else you are. Take a little time to feel out whatever situation in which you find yourself, this works for forums, bars or any other place people come together. Had you taken the time to read poolsolutions and troll the forum a bit, you'd have known where the folks here stand on pool chemistry and also known the probable response to your posts.
You quoted some sources to back you up, however - their trustworthyness is an unknown, I'd imagine that they sell chems or services. Ben has proven himself to us (he figured out a better, easier and cheeper way of caring for pools and graciously made it available to all of us, though he made no money from it and it cost him a lot of time),. Though he does sell test kits, and recently forum memberships, he is not getting kickbacks from Borax, Clorox or Arm and Hammer.
One last thing, your posts would have been acceptable in the "China Shop", but in the middle of someone elses' thread, they had no place and were completely inappropriate! I can appreciate that you were trying to help, but you went about it the wrong way. - Waste

Quote:

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Originally Posted by katw78

I suggest that you look outside your narrow-minded box and do more research of your own.

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1. If you want to debate me, this -- and not anywhere else -- is the place. If you try to start a debate elsewhere, you'll just get banned.
2. I'm not narrow-minded; I'm right, as a rule. If you think otherwise, prove it here. Quoting from other sites, where other people expressed their opinions, is not proof.
3. I have no interest in trying to prove, to the pool industry in general, that I'm right. If you don't want to agree with me, and also don't want to do a fully technical debate, go elsewhere. There are PLENTY of sites that hew to the NSPI (defunct) / NSPF / CPO / Biolab party line. You'll be welcome there.
4. Please, please don't bring your CPO book here . . . I'll not be impressed. (I'm a CPO instructor, and in case you wonder, when I teach the CPO class, I teach the text, even when it's wrong!)
5. Don't expect me to respond to your posts quickly. I've got good ideas, but bad follow through, sometimes, and I've done a very poor job of shipping kits in a timely manner this year. I'm about to get caught up, but till I do, that's my priority, except for moderation problems that only I can deal with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by katw78

Ileaving your chlorine above 15 ppm for a long number of days can also cause larger problems in the long run, stabilizer or not.

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Just to start the ball rolling . . . I'll bite: what larger problems?


Sincerely,

Ben
"PoolDoc"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CarlD

Kat, you have just been given the hook! You now go to the Hall of Shame.

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Carl, I've moved it to the China Shop. Maybe I've missed something, but I didn't see him selling anything.

I'll PM you as well.

Thanks,

Ben

Quote:

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Originally Posted by katw78

I suggest that you look outside your narrow-minded box and do more research of your own.

We've been doing all sorts of research here for years, from empirical testing by thousands of homeowners, to finding and de-bunking the pool chem industry's mis-use of research, to checking the LEGITIMATE scientific studies. Most people have come to rely on PoolDoc as the leader of an army of swimming pool "MythBusters". We also frown on personal attacks like "Narrow minded" which is usually used when we de-bunk the latest electro-magnet scam.

I've had a vinyl pool for years. We have used both Baquacil and chlorine. There may be tried and true ways of getting rid of algae without algecides, but leaving your chlorine above 15 ppm for a long number of days can also cause larger problems in the long run, stabilizer or not.

Like Ben, I say WHAT PROBLEMS? I do not understand why so-called "pool professionals" don't recognize that chlorine IS an algaecide--the best there is! Perhaps a perusal of this site will reveal hundreds and even THOUSANDS of people who followed pool store/pool maint. company advice, got algae, spent hundreds with no results or with relapses, came here, followed our simple, logical and EFFECTIVE methods and never had a problem again.

Using an algaecide is also a tried and true method of dealing with algae. Almost all regular maintainance programs have you use one.

So? They also insist that vinyl pool owners need to add massive amounts of calcium to their water, despite the fact that calcium's SOLE purpose is to prevent calcium leaching from the walls--which is not possible in a vinyl pool. My point? They are wrong about SO many things, that they are wrong about this one, too. Most algaecides other than Chlorine have horrible side effects--like foaming, ammonia and high copper levels. Only polyquat doesn't and that mostly works as a preventative.

I have dealt with more than one pool care specialist and swimming pool chemical company and have done a lot of research about pool problems on webssites other than this (believe it or not there are other ones out there just as reputable and as useful as you).

I find this hilarious. Pool chem companies have been engaging in a campaign for YEARS to disburse mis-information about pool care and their products. If you trust them, that's your business, but don't ask ME to! Why, oh WHY would a trust a company that sells 12# of "total alkaline raiser" for $30 when I can buy 12# of the same stuff at CostCo for $3.50? Why trust a company that adds copper to its tri-chlor tabs JUST so it can say "Double Acting"? Why trust a company that lowers its active chlorine from 68% to 48% in calcium hypochlorite just so the largest retailer in the world will stock it? How much do they charge per pound for Sodium Carbonate, the ingredient in pH Up and other pool chems company products? I see the same stuff in my supermarket called Arm&Hammer Washing Soda for $0.69/lb. I can go on and on about ALL the ways they try to separate us from our money.

Why would I trust their tame shills? Our methods WORK, and we have the evidence to back that up.

All other research and discussion that I have had with ppl care specialists for the last 10+ year agree that high PH can lead to algae blooms and once you get an algae bloom it is harder to bring the PH down. (I have had many algae problems in the past.) Lowering the PH to the normal range actually helps make it easier for the chlorine to work more efficiently, does less damage to your pool, and weakens the algae...to a degree...thus making it easier to kill off. If you don't believe me, maybe you should do more research.

Buried in this is a GRAIN of truth: High pH DOES make chlorine less effective and therefore the LOGICAL conclusion is that algae in high pH situations may be harder to kill. Lowering it will make the chlorine more effective and then the algae will be easier to kill. How hard is it to bring pH down? I've never heard of ANYONE having this problem unless they had other chem problems. Weakens the algae? I suppose if you dunk algae in low pH water it will kill it--and melt your vinyl liner too. But lowering pH to the low 7's makes the chlorine more effective at metabolizing EVERYTHING, including algae.

I also thought that the point of this forum was to share information, from person to person, about methods that have worked for us. I know that this algaecide, whatever the ingredients, have knocked down our algae bloom quicker than any other sanitizer or other product out there, have kept it down, and have allowed us to balance our pool more quickly and efficiently than in past years. Which is obviously better for the pool in the long run or there wouldn't be basic guidlines for your levels. If you don't believe in my methods, check out the information copied from a few other websites.

Our goal is to rid the pool of algae, and not give it a chance to return. We know of no algaecide that does this effectively without serious side effects. The guidelines you quote are the VERY guidelines published by the pool industry, which WE DO NOT TRUST BECAUSE WE HAVE HARD EVIDENCE THEY ARE WRONG!

Once algae has been allowed to bloom, it is quite tiresome to destroy. The common steps to get rid of an algae problem are:

Shock treat the pool. If you are using chlorine, aim for at least 10ppm free chlorine (10 times the recommended minimum level).

This statement is simply wrong. CYA levels determine the minimum, maximum and shock levels. 1ppm is the minimum and 10ppm is the shock level ONLY for 0 CYA.

Circulate the water round the clock if possible.
Brush the pool and vacuum.

OK, we recommend this--filter 24/7 and brush and vacuum to waste daily.

Add a commercial algaecide prepared for the algae you have (green, mustard or black) according to the instructions.

Absurd instruction. The ONLY valid algaecide is polyquat and that works best as a preventative. Now you want to KILL the algae, and nothing works better than chlorine. Remember: In high enough concentrations, chlorine will kill ANYTHING. In World War I, Chlorine Gas was the first poison gas used, and the Central forces used it first against the Allies. In the earliest AIDS prevention program, prior to needle exchanges, addicts were given film cannisters of bleach and told to run it through the needle before each use. I don't know why you keep denying bleach's power as algaecide.

Repeat brushing and vacuuming daily if possible. Add more chlorine if the level falls below 5ppm.

Again, a well documented IN-correct instruction. Add more chlorine if the level falls below the SHOCK level for your CYA concentration. Why arbitrarily pick 5ppm? It's illogical. CYA determines the correct level.

Clean or backwash your filter regularly.

Nobody here will disagree with THAT!

www.poolwizard.net

This references yet another low-level copper/silver erosion system. Just another version of the Nature 2 system. Why, if you aren't selling it, are you referring us to it????

Select a Problem Green Algae Chlorine Odor Cloudy Water Corrosion of Metal Parts Discolored Water Eye & Skin Irritation Foaming Scale Scum Too Much Availabile Chlorine



Problem: Green Algae

Symptom
• Slippery pool surface
• Slimy walls
• Dull green water

Possible Causes
• Low free available chlorine
• High pH

Solution
1. Adjust pH to 7.2-7.4 with HTH® pH MinusTM or HTH® pH Plus® at least onehour before shocking.

I like this! What is SO special about HTH pHMinus that makes it better than Dry Acid (which it is) or Muriatic Acid? pH Plus is Sodium Carbonate--you can buy it at the supermarket for $.69/lb--I just saw it at that price last week.Now we see CLEARLY that you do not understand that the pool chem companies have NO interest in giving us facts, but in selling us more and more stuff. HTH is one of the worst perps.

I've already established that we agree with you that lower pH makes chlorine more effective, but there's nothing in that which gives credence to higher pH boosting algae growth.

2. Shock treat your pool water with an HTH Shock product.

Uh-huh...And that is???? Cal-hypo...Which is notorious for turning water cloudy temporarily, for raising calcium levels, possibly too high. Bleach or liquid chlorine is FAR better for this as it has fewer side effects (none that I know of). Again, it's a pool chem web site info pushing THEIR products. I don't blame them--they are in the biz of selling, but it's not what one thinks of as UN-biased authority.

3. Brush walls vigorously using the brush designed for your pool type.
4. Run filter for 24 hours or until water clears.
5. Vacuum.
6. Add an HTH® Algaecide.

And that is???? If it ain't polyquat, it ain't going in MY pool! And if I have a bloom, it's too late.

Preventative Maintenance
• Maintain free available chlorine at 1.0-4.0 ppm
• Maintain pH in the 7.2-7.8 range
• Shock treat pool weekly

Again, 2 clearly incorrect recommendations. FC residual levels depend on CYA levels. For 0 CYA, FC of 1 to 3 is recommend, but for 10-20ppm of CYA, an FC of 2 to 5ppm is necessary, and for 30-50ppm of CYA, your FC must be in the 3-6ppm range.

Why shock your pool weekly? Only do that if you are NEGLECTING your pool. If you maintain the residual levels of FC for your CYA, shocking should only be on an as-needed basis, when you have CC or when your FC drops below the minimum level for your CYA. Or, of course, if you are growing something.

Pool myths perpetrated by a pool chem company.

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Have to break this into 2 posts.