Considering these upgrades...new VS pump and salt system....few questions

Hi...I have a 13500 gal IG concrete pool that came with the house...Currently have an old (noisy) single speed pump and a Hayward chlorine tablet feeder. I just put in a new Hayward cartridge filter as the old one had several cracks beyond repair. No attached spa or water features. There is a single main drain in the deep end, a skimmer topside and one suction point for the automatic pool cleaner, a Baracuda MX8.

For years Ive been wanting to convert to a salt system mostly because the chlorine irritates my eyes and salt pool water just feels softer to me. In doing my research, it seems that a salt system needs a little less day to day maintenance. I travel alot and often forget to tell the rest of the family to check the tabs in the pool, not to mention that I dont like the kids handling those tabs in the first place. As a result, the pool often gets green and takes days to clear up along with $$$ for swamp away and other stuff I have to go buy. Its been pretty frustrating.

I am thinking of the Pentair Intelliflow 3hp, (model 11018) or the Intelliflow VS or VF but am not quite clear on the differences other than the price??.. Looking on the website best I can tell is the higher end models have the safety feature and/or a GPM flow meter built in? My main concern is the variable speed as I am really interested in saving money on my elec bill but wondering if the GPM meter is worth it. Any other major features with the more expensive pumps in that line? Are these pumps HP overkill for my pool size and setup?

The salt generator I plan is the Pentair IC20 along with the right power supply module...From what I understand there is a flow sensor built in to these that only turns on the generator when there is enough flow. I suppose I could just dial up the RPM till I see the salt system indicate its working as set that as my low speed to run for most of the day but what about when I want the Baracuda MX8 to run? Do most people just leave the pool robot plugged in all the time and when it gets enough suction to run it goes about and then when the pump ramps back down it sits idle?

Am I correct in assuming that if the pump is turning water at lower speed all (or most of the day) and the salt system is working at that flow rate, the pool should, in theory stay cleaner with less time checking in on it every day?

Another main question I have is what about the mechanical timer I have there now to run the old single speed? Does that stay in and I still use that or does the new pump get constant power and let its own computer turn it on and off?

In summary, Id like to be able to have the pump run at a low speed just enough to have the top skimmer and bottom drain pulling water thru the system and leave the Baracuda MX8 attached and then when it ramps up to a high speed it provides enough suction to make the robot move for an hour or two and then go back to lower speed. All without having to touch the valves. Is this a realistic expectation or am I dreaming and just not understanding this right?

I forgot to mention that I will be installing all this myself. I am pretty handy and pretty much take on all my home improvement projects on my own. I just want to have a clear idea before I order these things and realize that the two products (new variable speed pump and Intelliclor IC20) are not a good system together.

You've got a lot of good questions, some of which I can answer, some of which others can answer, but what you DON'T have, which I will answer, is the right FIRST question:

"How do I maintain my pool simply and comfortably without driving myself crazy?" That's because ALL your questions are circling around this but not hitting it.

Your problems stem from beginning and end due to (sorry to say this) your NOT understanding how to balance your water's chemistry. From the chlorine irritation of your eyes to the almost instantaneous emergence of algae if you are going nuts with maintenance all stem, and I mean ALL from NOT understanding water chemistry and balance. You need to learn this FIRST.

That's the bad news.

The good news is it's really, really easy, not expensive and may, just may make your desire for a SWCG unnecessary. (nothing wrong with an SWCG--I just put one in for last season--and I love having it--but more on that later).

At the end of this "rant" ;) will be the 4 Things I want you to take away from this....

Since you've come here looking for answers the first two things YOU need to do is get a GOOD test kit, and learn how our B-B-B system of pool maintenance works. The quick thing to do, is go to our sister site: www.poolsolutions.com and start reading. "B-B-B" stands for "Bleach, Borax and Baking Soda"--three of the 5 key ingredients anyone needs to maintain their pool. The other two are Muriatic Acid (Dry Acid can be substituted) and Stabilizer, aka, CYA, aka Cyanuric or Isocyanuric Acid. Since you own a concrete pool, you'll need Calcium Carbonate (or some other calcium additive).

Notice that only two of these require a pool store or a pool section of a Walmart/K-Mart type store. The rest are in your local supermarket's laundry section.
Yeah.
Bleach: Regular, unscented, in any strength (5.25%, 60%, 8.3%, or higher) This is your chlorine source. ALL chlorine is the same in the water, whether from bleach, tablets, powder, or an SWCG. But only Bleach and the SWCG add simply chlorine, and not other ingredients. Pool stores DO sell higher concentrations of bleach as "Liquid Chlorine" (LC). It's a simple calculation as to which is cheaper to use. I use LC because the one store I get it from has very high quality stuff and the price is more than competitive. But 12% LC is merely double-strength 6% bleach.

Borax: 20 Mule Team Borax is the best chem for raising pH when it's too low. Pool stores sell "ph Up!" and other similar stuff. Ironically, that's just Washing Soda, Sodium Carbonate.

Baking Soda: The old Arm&Hammer in the orange box (or orange bag from Costco) is how you raise your "Total Alkalinity" if you need to. Pool stores sell it with all kinds of fancy labels, and list the ingredients as "Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate" or "Sodium Acid Carbonate" but don't be fooled....those are merely alternate names for good old Sodium Bicarbonate (not to be confused with Sodium Carbonate--Washing Soda or Soda Ash).

Muriatic Acid: The regular stuff, used for etching glass and cleaning stone or concrete. It's Hydrochloric Acid and while EXTREMELY corrosive, in the water it adds nothing harmful. Be VERY careful with this stuff. Wear goggle and gloves, and I always pour it into a 5-gallon bucket of pool water before putting it in the pool. ALWAYS ADD THE ACID TO THE WATER, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND! Alternatively, you can use Dry Acid which comes in various names from pool stores. It's a lot easier to handle but you must STILL be careful with it.

Stabilizer/CYA: Cyanuric or Isocyanuric Acid. It's a slow-dissolving white powder. Stabilizer protects your chlorine from breaking down too fast, but also slows its actions. If it gets too high, it becomes difficult to adequately chlorinate your water. This is why you get algae so quickly. Most of your tablets and powders add CYA. Bleach and SWCGs don't.

Calcium: Needed in concrete pools to prevent the water from leeching calcium from the walls.

Algaecide: Nasty, useless stuff that almost always does more harm than good. Chlorine is the best algaecide. The ONLY one we recommend as a preventative, is "Polyquat 60%". If the algaecide bottle has its only active ingredient, "Poly...<something long and incomprehensible>... 60%", that's the stuff. EVERYTHING ELSE WILL MESS UP YOUR POOL!!!!

Clarifier, Flocculents, metal removers etc: Generally useless crud you will NEVER need UNLESS one of our chem whizzes here says use it. Then follow their directions, exactly.

TEST KIT!!!!!: CRUCIAL! Without a proper test kit EVERYTHING else is just wasting your money and you might as well hire a pool service to mess it up for you. The good news is the BEST kit is available for between $50 and $80 on-line and it WILL be the BEST investment you make in your pool, (besides the time reading poolsolutions.com).

We recommend the Taylor K-2006 or K-2006C kit available from various sites. If you look at PoolDoctor's signature, he has a link to a good source (that helps support the Pool Forum as well). But there are other places, including Taylor itself. Leslies sells the same kit online as their own brand and calls it "Chlorine FAS-DPD Service Test Kit" IMHO, it is seriously over-priced at $85, but is the K-2006 in a Leslies box--same Taylor tools and chems. There IS a huge difference between an FAS-DPD chlorine test and a DPD chlorine test. Don't be fooled. The FAS-DPD test is the best.

All this comes back to pool chemistry: And that is Chlorine and pH control. The rest is ancillary to it.
Free Chlorine (FC) sanitizes your pool and results in Combined Chloramines (CC). CCs smell like chlorine, irritate your skin and eyes and are only good for telling you that you need MORE chlorine, of the FC variety (from bleach, powder, tablets or an SWCG). Chlorine kills stuff. Bad stuff. Like the fecal bacteria every human has when they enter your pool that if not instantly killed can make you sick. It also kills algae, breaks down skin and various oils, including sun tan lotion. You NEED chlorine to keep your water sanitary. National standards and pool store suggestions of NEVER going over 3ppm are worse than useless. They are dangerous.

pH is how acidic or alkaline your water is. Labs say pH of 7 is neutral, but for complicated reasons I don't understand or care about, in pools, that range is really 7.2 to 7.8. Sometimes the 7.6 to 7.8 range can also help make water less irritating.

Stabilizer levels protect chlorine, but your ideal chlorine level must match your stabilizer level. Pool stores and general guidance are WORSE than useless on this. To give you the idea of how STUPID the guidance is, the Government suggested maximum level for swimming pool chlorine is 3 parts per million. Yet for drinking water it's 4 parts per million, with acceptable levels up to 10 parts per million! Water you can drink isn't safe to swim in?????????????????????????? We have our Best Guess Table to help with that.

SWCG: I have one. I love it. It's great. What it does is take the salt in my water (which feels good, even if you do NOT have an SWCG) and breaks the salt into Sodium and Chlorine (NaCl is salt), using the Chlorine to chlorinate your pool. Same chlorine as bleach or anything else. But you STILL have to understand all the water chemistry I've talked about ^^^^ if it's to be effective. Mine (an AutoPilot) runs off the same clockwork timer as my pump. I COULD have wired the pump to it but...the manufacturer said this is just as good. I'm not using the SWCG's timer and pump control, but...that doesn't matter. It doesn't save me money, but I'm away a lot and it allows me to "neglect" my pool a bit safely. Alternatively, I would have someone add a gallon of bleach every other day regardless and that would keep the pool good for 2 weeks at a stretch with no problem. I did that with my first pool and for 10 years with my current pool.

So...if you follow up on the chemistry and learn how to take care of your pool, your decision making on expensive additions (like an SWCG) will be far better informed as to what it will bring you.

I've left off discussions of Total Alkalinity and Calcium Hardness, metal in the water, etc, because YOU can learn that on your own and it's not critical at this point.

Remember these 4 things as your take-away:

Chlorine = Sanitation
pH = Acidity/alkalinity
Stabilizer=determines ideal Chlorine levels.
Test Kits save you time, money and trouble

Hope this helps.

You sure do NOT need a 3HP pump for that pool. 3/4 should be plenty.

Thanks Carl for the info....I had actually already looked into the "BBB" system after seeing that while browsing these forums and although interesting, the chemistry part is not for me....Ill leave that to my wife who is a science teacher and loves dealing with that kind of thing. lol Me? Im more of the "mechanical tinkerer" type, hence all my questions on how my proposed system will operate. I will definitely go the SWCG route if only to not have to deal with replacing those tablets anymore. For me thats a huge plus. I just don't like handling them, just opening the bucket irritates my eyes. I will also try to get my wife more involved with checking the levels and look into a good test kit as well. Since we also have a detached spa, we have found a few times that we are wanting to use it on a night but the water is just not right and the cheap test kit we have now is either not very easy to use or not accurate.

Donny, I am aware that a 3hp pump is overkill..the one I have now is 1.5. I don't know if its the age of the pump or other parts of my system but it can hardly push the Baracuda MX8 around while having the skimmer on. I am comfortable with the price of the variable speed pumps and I really like the idea of precise control over the speeds and the programability they offer over say a simple 2 speed pump.

I visited a few local shops this weekend to ask some of these questions but I kept getting the same type of answer...."When our techs come out to install it they will set it up for you... don't worry...ect.." I really dislike when a business treats a potential customer like they are idiots and they have to dumb it down because this guy who walked in off the street cant possibly comprehend the technology of a water pump....I am a field application engineer with a video display manufacturer, integrated display systems costing nearly a million dollars in some of our government's top facilities yet somehow a simple water pump makes my head spin...lol...

All I want really want to know is, what do most people do during off hours like during the weekdays? Do they leave the pool cleaner (my Baracuda MX8) plugged in all the time with a combination of suction from the skimmer and/or main drain at low speed? Low speed turning water at least once a day and more efficient filtration, skimmer sucking in surface crap that lands on the water but the cleaner pretty much sitting idle ......ect....

THEN at a certain time, the pump ramps up to a faster speed giving the whole works a boost in suction and the MX8 would then run around like mad for an hour or two and grab all the crap that settled to the bottom?

Only reason why I ask it this way is that in my experience, with my current equipment. I have never been able to run both the MX8 and the skimmer at the same time. Its either had to be one or the other and as Im sure you can guess....involves switching valves or better said, FORGETTING to switch valves :)

. . . membership updated.

Looks like Carl covered most of your questions. I will add one note: VS pumps are essentially un-repairable when the electronics fail. The cost of replacing that module typically runs around 70% of the cost of a new pump. That's not a huge problem in areas with stable power, say Arizona. But, in areas with summer thunderstorms, it can be a major issue, since the pump electronics do not handle voltage surges well, much less nearby lightning strikes..

It is possible to install full blown protection ($400+) that will probably preserve the pump unless lightning strikes YOUR house or power-line. But that's a significant additional cost . . . and complication.

I'm also in central Florida. It sounds like you want the pump and SWCG to make maintenance "automatic". Using tabs (Tri-chlor) exclusively drives ph down and sends your stabilizer (CYA) higher and higher over time, unless you are replacing water from anything other than evaporation. Higher CYA requires higher chlorine levels to sanitize and keep algae away. Check out the best-guess chart under Doc's signature block. No matter how you chlorinate your pool, tabs, SWCG, bleach, etc. you need to test and monitor these levels. If your chlorine to CYA ratio drops below about 1 to 10, your going to continue to be frustrated. You need to know your CYA level.

You don't need a bunch of stuff if you do get algae - just chlorine to get to shock level in the best-guess chart time and patience.

Yeah, if you have a noisy pump, fix or replace it. If you run your pump at the minimum to just turn the SWCG on, will it make enough chlorine with your CYA?