New member, with brand new vinyl liner...

and hoping to be smarter about all of this going forward! We just filled our pool this weekend (just had a new liner installed), using municipal water (two days via hose). This is our 2013 opening. As I write, I've just started the pump and it is filtering. I assume our water has no CYA/stabilizer, since there is no treated water in it.

For 20+ years we've operated with pool store advice as our guide, then relegated the pool store to "troubleshooter" status (after we became reasonably competent and confident managing our pool "without" them). We have never had a really good home test kit, however, and continued to use chemicals purchased at the pool store (until the past four years, where we've used primarily 3" chlorine tabs/pucks purchased online, which are administered via an inline chorinator which we installed). We've had decent success, but believe the use of pool store and/or online "shock" products and inadequate knowledge/tracking of the CYA build-up in our pool may have contributed to the early expiration of our previous liner, which showed a lot of fading and, after about 10 years of use became brittle and cracked and leaked out after we closed the pool last fall.

As a user of online forums the past years with regard to a couple of other recreational pursuits, I took a look online and found this pool owners forum and read some descriptions of the BBB method, which makes sense to me.

My present sense of things is that I will need to get a good test kit. In the meantime, with the water circulating and filtering, I know I need to get some CYA (pool store stabilizer) into the pool, so I'm waiting for them to open tomorrow so I can go do that. I've shut "off" my chorinator, although it stands at the ready in case I'm not up and running with the entire switch to BBB right away.

The water in my pool is green (expected, as we recall "metals" issues from previous "fills", but I have no test results). I would like to add chlorine, but my understanding is that about all I can do safely right now is to get teh CYA into the pool as job #1, to minimize the potential for staining if there is a metals issue. I should also order a test kit ASAP, I suppose.

I obviously waited pretty long here before this 11th hour discovery that the BBB method existed and am in a position of having to get up and running pretty quick. Anybody care to give me some direction on proceeding/approaching this "opening"?

Maybe I should go ahead with my previously planned approach of getting a pool store water test, obtaining and adding some stabilizer tomorrow when the pool store opens, then starting with the chlorinator (pucks). In this way, I guess I could essentially get it up and running, then switch over to the BBB once I get my test kit and am equipped to make some decisions?

Sorry for the stream of consciousness...I'll shut up now and listen. Thanks!

Lee

22500 gal., 18'x36' IG vinyl (built 1991), with sand filter, 1 HP Hayward Super Pump
Near Kalamazoo, Michigan

1. Run your pump/filter 24/7
2. Go to the pool store and get your water tested.
3. Get the minimum amount of chlorine and stabilizer recommended.
4. Buy a cheap local OTO/phenol red (yellow/red) drops kit, and use it to keep your chlorine high and your pH in range.
5. Get 2 quarts of polyquat 60 ( http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/polyquat.html ) locally.
6. Check your pool for algae by feeling the sides: slippery = algae; not slippery and your color may be metals.
7. Dose with the polyquat according to the 'algae-test' in #4 -- maintenance dose for no algae.
8. Get your pH in range, and your stabilizer high enough to keep your from losing all chlorine the first time the sun comes out. Use borax to RAISE your pH and muriatic acid to LOWER your pH.
9. After adding the polyquat and getting the pH in range, slowly raise your chlorine, not more than 1 ppm per day. Bleach is excellent for this -- add 1/2 gallon at a time via the skimmer.

10. Do NOT buy, or add, algaecide, calcium, alkalinity increaser, flocculant, phosphate remover or clarifier. T

11. BUT ALSO, order a K2006 test kit (see Amazon link in my signature)
12. Post test results as soon as you have them

Explanation:
The polyquat will help you control the algae (if any) without causing the metals (if any) to drop out and stain anything. Polyquat is ALSO a very effective clarifier, and will help you remove any small particles of metals, etc. that may form. Adjusting the pH will prevent any further damage (if any) and bring the pool water into range to began removing the metals. Adding chlorine will tend to cause any metals to begin dropping out (and possibly staining) adding bleach via the skimmer will tend to make the metals come out on the filter, rather than in the pool.

BUT, till you have the K2006, we are all operating by guess-timate -- even dealer read strips are not accurate enough to trust.

Thanks, Ben. I'll be back!

Ben:

The Post Office had a little mixup and my test kit only arrived today. In the interim, I added the minimum CYA and bleach for the recommendations of the pool calculator, and have been adding bleach here and there to keep the level up. Things have cleared up (pool looks good visually). Since startup, I've filtered 24/7, and have for the past week run a couple of round of acid & aeration (using my spa jets). I decided to do this, in an attempt to lower the total alkalinity, which showed 270 at the pool store (and has consistently shown over 300 with my old home test kit). I was away for the weekend, so this morning, I found the pH over 7.8 using my old kit, so I added a quart of MA.

After going to the post office this morning, and equipped with new TF-100 test kit in hand (I had ordered before you told me to order the K2006), I tested a few things at lunch and here's what we know today about my 22,500 gallon vinyl pool:

Free Chlorine - 3.5
Total Chlorine - 3.5
Cyanuric acid - 20
Total alkalinity - 380
pH - 7.5

Based on these results, I went ahead and added two more pounds of CYA to a nylon sock and it is presently in my skimmer. I'll add another sock with one more pound of CYA (three pounds total) tonight.

I am planning on adding a quart of MA tonight to bring the pH down in another cycle of acid and aeration per the articles here on the forum, and will probably also add a pint of 10% bleach, based on the pool calculator.

Any thoughts?

Lee

Just maintain chlorine levels, and keep your pH below 7.2.

Do that, and you don't have to worry about aeration or lowering the alkalinity. Just don't raise it (no soda ash or bicarb) and don't add calcium, and let it come down on it's own over time. Check every week or so, so you don't get it too low.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PoolDoc

Just maintain chlorine levels, and keep your pH below 7.2.

Do that, and you don't have to worry about aeration or lowering the alkalinity. Just don't raise it (no soda ash or bicarb) and don't add calcium, and let it come down on it's own over time. Check every week or so, so you don't get it too low.

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Well, that sounds simple, so I'm on it. However, it raises a couple of questions for me:

1. I thought I'd read on here where the acid/aeration approach was really the only way to reduce the TA. You are saying that just maintaining low pH will reduce the TA over time, right?

2. Is a pH of 7.0 or 6.8 "swimmable"? Does it represent any hazard to our new liner?

3. What problems does the high TA present until reduced?

Thanks, Ben.

Lee

Aeration occurs continuously, if you just use the pool and don't cover it. You can increase aeration rates, through a variety of means. For example, a pool party of middle school boys provides very effective aeration!

But it's not necessary in your case.

6.8 - 7.0 is fine for people and liners. The problem is that, with phenol red testing, 6.8 is about the lowest (most yellow) color. If the pH is 6.8, the solution will be yellow, but if it's 4.0, it will STILL be yellow, with only a small visual difference. What we tell people is that, when they test their pool, 6.8 *really* means 6.8 or LESS, and 8.2 *really* means 8.2 or MORE.

But, in your case, if you use small acid doses to lower the pH, you won't overshoot much, and the high alkalinity (and accompanying off-gassing of carbon dioxide) will naturally cause the pH to rise.

High TA can reduce the efficacy of some algaecides -- but you shouldn't be using any, so that's not really an issue. And, high TA can make it impossible to use cal hypo to sanitize, without clouding the pool . . . so don't use cal hypo.

Got it. Thanks. I'll report back after giving this some time to work.

Ben:

With the water clear and seemingly under control, do I still need to run my filter 24-7 as we reduce the TA by holding down the pH?

It seems like the "aeration" associated with running the system will tend to drive the pH up unnecessarily and, if that is not helpful, I'd like to return to a more standard "daytime" pump & filter operating schedule (like 12 hours per day).

Thanks.

Lee

Driving pH up is what 'uses up' the alkalinity; it's not unnecessary if you want to reduce carbonate alkalinity.

When you are lowering alkalinity, the ONLY way to avoid "driving pH up" is a continuous trickle acid feed. This is what happens on a commercial pool with acid feed controlled by a pH meter.