Metal in pool

[doriec]

I recently added 2 qts. of metal out to my 27,000 gal. pool. It cleared up the stains beautifully. Then the water clouded up and turned green so I shocked the pool. The ph fell to 6.8, the water turned green, and it took 27 gal of bleach before the FC remained steady. The ph fell to very low levels. After reading the posts, I can see my mistakes. My questions are these:
1. I need to pour in more metal out after lowering the ph and FC levels. How much more can I add? Keep in mind that I already added 2 qts before my problems occurred.
2. Does the filter expel the old metal out and sequestered metals when I backwash? Or do they stay suspended in the water as the filters returns the water to the pool?
3. Do I always have to keep my water's ph low to keep the metals from "dropping" out?
4. Will the metals "drop" out again whenever if I have to shock the pool to get rid of CC?
I have a salt pool. I fill with 1/2 well water (with lots of iron, I am sure) and I/2 with softened water because of hard well water.
My FC is 5
CC 0
ph 7.4
TA 150
hardness 250
I use bleach to shock, borax to raise ph, and acid to lower the ph.
Thanks for your help.
Dorie

[aylad]

I'm not the metals expert around here, but I can tell you that high pH and high Chlorine are going to cause the metals to start staining. You do need to keep the pH fairly low, but if it's a vinyl pool you don't want it to be below 7.0, because that's TOO low and can cause damage to the liner. If you need to shock the pool, watch it as the chlorine rises, and if you start seeing discoloration, add the metal out then.

I'm sorry I don't know how much to add or the answer to your other questions, but Marie (Mbar-- the resident metals expert other than Pooldoc) should be by soon and can help you further. IN the meantime, I encourage you to read through the other posts in the metals forum, and particularly the stickies, because you'll probably find some of the information you need to understand metals in there.

Welcome back to the forum!!

Janet

[doriec]

Thanks, Janet. It is nice to be back.
I forgot to mention that when I used metal out last time, aside from the cloudy pool, algae, and screwy chemical levels, my CYA level fell to 0. Why is that?
I am going to try the metal out again. This time I am going to be sure that I have low ph and FC levels before I add it. I hope someone out there can tell me if sequestering these metals will the filter to get rid of them. If not, it will be a game to keep the chemicals perfect to avoid the staining again.
Dorie

[aylad]

It's always going to be a game to keep the chems right. The metal sequestrants hold the iron in suspension in the water, but they don't actually remove them. There is a thread started by a new user, labdi01 where she talks about some sort of filter she made that actually removed the iron from her water. It apparently worked for her, but I don't have enough experience with it to know whether to recommend it or not. You can read through it at http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=9706 and it might give you some insight. Also, read through Pooldoc's post (#22) at this thread http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=9660&page=3 and see if it helps.

Janet

[doriec]

Janet,
I read the last post you mentioned--very good. It answered some of my questions. Apparently, sequestered metals will filter out. That is good news. I still don't understand why the metal out drops the ph and eats up chlorine. Maybe someone can help with that one.
Thanks,
Doris

[doriec]

I am still having problems with staining. This is what I have been doing to correct the problem.

I lowered my ph to 7.2, allowed the chlorine to drop to .5, and then poured in the specified dose of metal out. The stains dissappeared almost immediately. For two days I ran the filter and backwashed each day. Then I allowed the chlorine level from the salt generator to rise to 1.5. and the ph to 7.4. Within hours, the stains came back. I lowered the ph and chlorine again, and the stains disappeared again. I am now running the pool and backwashing again. How long will this process take before the stains stay away? My pool numbers are good, except for the alkalinity which is 135. I am trying to get that down through lowering the ph and aeration.
Thanks for helping me.
Dorie

[waterbear]

Janet,
I read the last post you mentioned--very good. It answered some of my questions. Apparently, sequestered metals will filter out. That is good news. I still don't understand why the metal out drops the ph and eats up chlorine. Maybe someone can help with that one.
Thanks,
Doris

No, sequestered metals do not filter out. They are dissolved in the water and in an ionic form. Being sequestered means that they are not chemically reactive so they won't be oxidized and either color the water, deposit as stain, or precipitate out. Remember, the definition of sequester is to 'set apart' or 'put into seclusion'. Metals that have PRECIPITATED out of solution are filterable but they usually just redeposit on the pool as stain again.
If you are referring to my post about chitosan, remember I said that I do not know how effective it is, just that it has been documented that it can combine with metal ions and then filter them out. I do not believe it is a very effective process or someone would have already marketed it as a metal remover.

[mbar]

When I am dealing with staining I never lower the chlorine when putting in a sequestering agent. One of the reasons the stains are disappearing is because the chlorine level is so low:rolleyes: You have to get the pool to a level where you can maintain a sanitized pool and keep the metals sequestered. You just don't have enough sequestering agent in the water. The problem is that chlorine eats the sequestering agent, which makes the chlorine levels go low, which can lead to algae, which leads to needing to shock, which leads to more stains:eek::eek: That is one of the reasons that I don't let the chlorine drop to add the stain treat. You can add some algaecide, which will help when the chlorine does go down. Here is what I would do, Get your chlorine where you want it by slowly adding it - keeping the ph low. Add more sequestering agent, if you see the stain start to come back, add more agent. Keep checking the chlorine and add it slowly to keep it at the level you need for your cya. It can take a while to get it right, but once you do, you just need to add the maintenance dose of the sequestering agent on a weekly basis. Remember you want the water sanitized first - that is the most important, this way you can swim - you can swim with stains, but not with water that has aglae;)

Waterbear is right, you can't really filter out the metals, the only thing you can do is to keep them sequestered, or get them to stain on the filter, as PoolDoc explains in his post. Hope this helps, and feel free to ask any other questions you may have.

[newpoolgirl]

I don't mean to barge in, but what they are telling you is correct. if your levels go out of wack. you will be back to square 1. I was having this issue since may. Tried metal out, but what my pool store wasn't telling me was to keep my levels balanced. I did find a product to clear my brown water since i have a small cartridge filter with my 5,000gal intex pool that doesn't do much. It's called pool stain treat. it's a sequestrant and chelator. Don't ask me what that means, but after 2 days of using this my water cleared,and the cartridge filter actually caught all the brown(washed it out 4 times). I bought this product on my own as a last resort before I took down the pool. Called the company that makes it(united chemical corp.) And just like the above posts the company told me that even with this, if my levels are off, bam, back to brown water. They said for this chemical to work you levels have to be balanced. This site is the best one that I have found out there. Thank you and keep up the good work.

[waterbear]

Pool stain treat is just oxalic acid. It works exactly the same as ascorbic acid but is more toxic. (Citric acid also works the same.) You are just lucky the stain reformed in your filter and not in the pool. A sequestrant is still needed.

United chemical sell a lot of different products and makes a lot of claims for them. When you realize that the majority of their products are just soduim bromide (Pool stain Treat and the stain spotting bags being an exception since they are oxalic acid) and you look at the nonsense they call the Hamilton Index that they used to promote (and still do with their water balance recommendations) then you have to look at their claims for the products with a grain of salt.

I am not saying these products do not work, in fact they do (some better than others). It's just the marketing hype does not quite agree with the reality of what is really happening.

[newpoolgirl]

so even though this product(oxalic acid) states that it is a sequestrant, it is not? i know nothing about pool lingo. The only thing i do know is that i used 32 oz of metal treat(tricurboxylic acid/phophonbutane) , and also 32 oz of metal out(not sure what's in this). With both of these i've had no luck. since i used the oxalic acid product do i still have to add more of a metal out product?
since i've added the oxilic acid my #'s are:
TH:100 (this never changed since beginning)
FC: 0
pH:7.2
TA: 240(highest strip goes) can't seem to get down
CYA: 30 -can't get this up. used 4lbs of stabilizer and cond. last week.

5,000 gal pool

[waterbear]

First thing, get rid of the strips and get a decent test kit. I would recommend investing in a Taylor K-2006. It will be money well spent in the long run.
As far as the Pool Stain Treat, it is actually a reducing agent. I chemically transforms the insoluble colored metal stains into colorless and soluble metal ions that go into solution.
The metal is still in your pool and can redeposit as stains if your water chemistry gets a bit out of line or your water can become colored if you shock the pool.
Adding a metal sequestrant such as the metal out makes the metal ions in solution non reactive chemically so they are much less likely to deposit back as stain or color the water. However, sequestrants do break down and need to be reapplied on a regular (usually monthly) basis. If not your stains are very likely to return.


So to deal with metal stains you need two products:

1) a reducing agent such as ascorbic, citric , or oxalic acid to reduce the metal to a colorless, soluble form (Ascorbic is the least toxic, oxalic is the most toxic but relatively cheap.)

2) a sequestrant to keep the metal in solution and inactivated chemically so it does not react with pool chemicals to deposit as stain, precipitate out (rusty water) or oxidize into a colored form (green water for copper, yellow water for iron, purple water for manganese). Most of the sequestrantss on the market are based on HEDP (phophonates or phosphonic acid derivatives) and are the most effective. There are also ones based on EDTA that do not raise phosphate levels (really a non issue anyway!) but they don't work as well as the first type. However there are other chemicals used as sequestrants and chelating agents in pools so YMMV. (Also all chelating agents are sequestrants but not all sequestrants are chelating agents. The difference lies in the shape of the molecule and nothing more.)

Also, stain removal is more effective at lower pH so you might need acid and since most stain removers destroy chlorine (and you cannnot shock because that will bring the stains back) you will most likely need some polyquat 60 to keep algae at bay until the chlorine is holding again.

Don't forget that calcium is also a metal so sequestrants are also useful when there is very high calcium levels in the water.

Hope this info is useful.

[newpoolgirl]

thank you !

[newpoolgirl]

hello again. i hate to bother you but since i have added the pool stain treat, until yesterday, my water has been clear. My chlorine level has not been showing on my test kit. bought a different kind and it was showing FC at 1. I was using 3" chlorine tab in floater. I was happy with that since my water was clear. My husband decided to listen to someone at work about if our chlorine was low we could have bacteria and all get sick. Without me knowing he added shock, then the next day chlorine granules to our pool. I have no clue how much. Needless to say, brown water again. I took my water to get tested since the colors that showed on my strips didn't match some of the colors on the container.
pH 8
FC 5.1
TC 5.1
Alk 140
CYA 60
Copper 0.13
Iron 0.17(was 0.9 last time got it tested)
Hardness 140
Phosphate 300

My question is that if my Iron level is 0.17 would that be the cause of my brown water or something else? My water is the darkest it has ever been, but i'm assuming that's b/c my chlorine level and pH is the highest it's ever been, right? Also, I did add calcium. The pool store told me that i should add it b/c they told me that over time being low my liner could become brittle. They told me to add 2Lbs for my 5000gals. I don't even think I added a pound b/c i wanted to go slow with that. Could that have added to the brown, also? I was doing so good. I kept my pH at 7.2 and chlorine at 1 with that floater. I have never added any more cya to my water since i setup my pool. Why did my pH rise to 8, and cya go up to 60 since he added the shock and chlorine? The only cya i added was when i opened my pool a month ago, and my shock or chlorine does not contain anything like that.I did add the pool stain treat again last night. I guess since my water is real dark it will take longer to clear? Also, I know this could bring my pH down. If it doesn't bring it back close to 7.2 how long should I wait before I buy something to bring it down?

[mbar]

What kind of pucks are you using? If they are tri-chlor then they contain cya and will bring your cya up pretty fast. With a cya of 60 you want your chlorine to be at 5ppm for your low number, so your chlorine level is good. The high ph will cause the metals to fall out of solution. Just taking your ph down should help. What I don't understand is if he put in a lot of chlorine, then it should have come in at higher than 5.1. Maybe you were fighting the beginning of an algae break, but you don't measure any combined chlorine, so I don't know if he put in all that much. I don't understand how your ph is so high unless the pucks you are using contain calcium instead of cya. In order to have a puck the chlorine has to have something to bind on to, so it is either cyanuric acid (cya) or calcium (calhypo). The only way to get chlorine without these is plain bleach which only has salt in it. If there is no chlorine in the water, then you will not have any stains, because there will be nothing to make the metals fall out of solution, but I am afraid your husband is right - you need chlorine at a level to get rid of bacteria (which you can have with clear water). You don't even see an algae break out until there is enough to make the water cloudy. You will find the balance with your pool - you may just need some more sequestering agent to hold the metals in suspension. Sequestering agents should lower the ph, if not then add some acid. You are better off to keep your ph on the low side. Chlorine levels can be kept on the low side, but for a cya of 60 you need a minimum of 5. Your shock level would be 20 - if you keep up with the water you should not have to shock. It is a matter of keeping the right amount of sequestering agent in the water for the levels of chlorine you need. Feel free to ask any questions, I know it's frustrating, but it is doable (is that a word?).:)

[aylad]

The fact that the chlorine and pH were raised is probably what caused the iron to precipitate and give you brown water. We know how the chlorine got that high....but also keep in mind that high chlorine tends to give falsely high pH results, so I don't really trust your pH result until the chlorine comes back down some.

What is the ingredient in the "shock" and the "chlorine granules" that he added? If it was dichlor, which I think it probably was, it added some CYA. Also, the trichlor pucks that you are using add a great deal of CYA over time, plus you added a huge dose of CYA from startup, so that's why your CYA is suddenly so high. With a CYA that high, you do normally need to run higher chlorine levels to keep the water clean.

You don't need to increase your calcium in a vinyl pool, so if you haven't added the other pound, I wouldn't. Calcium is necessary in plaster/gunite/concrete pools to keep the water from leaching calcium out of the concrete and making it brittle. In a vinyl pool, there is no concrete to protect. Brittleness in a liner is normally a result of sun damage, and/or out of whack water chemistry, not calcium deficiency. Mbar recommends a little calcium in her pool to help with the metals staining the water, but you do not need to raise it any higher than it is. That's a pool store thing--I think they tell you that you need calcium in a vinyl pool because that's what they've been told....and it doesn't normally make any discernable difference, but it's not needed.

Janet

Edit: I see that Marie was typing at the same time I was--I will always defer to her on the metals front!!

[newpoolgirl]

Hi,
my pucks,shock and chlorine granules were all calhypo. (i do not have trichlor pucks.) I have been adding weekly dose of algecide the whole time since mem. day. it's hth algae guard 3x concentrate. the only cya i added was in beginning. the pool stain treat cleared my water quickly last time, but not really seeing any difference yet? i know to get my pH around 7.2, but where do i go next for my chlorine level to show. I was told not to shock unless i really need to so how can i get my FC at 5 w/o shocking and turning my water brown again?(if it ever clears) I am now mad since i wasted another $15 on calcium, lol. (keep in mind since mem day i have added 32 oz of metal out, 32 oz of hth metal control, and 32 ozs of united chemical's metal treat. this all went into my 5000 gals of water. then on top of that a whole bottle of pool stain treat.) do i need more sequestering agent? and with my iron level so low why does it still turn brown? please bare with me. every time i think i'm one step ahead, i fall 10 behind.

[mbar]

5 ppms of chlorine in your pool is not shock level. To take your pool up to shock level with a cya of 60 would be 20ppms. The only thing I can think of is that your cya didn't register right away at the beginning, or the test is wrong. That is why we recommend you have a really good test kit. This way you can test your own water and the results will be consistent. I think you need a little POP (pool owners patience) You are putting in too much stuff. It takes chemicals a while to work, and sometimes if you put too much in a small amount of water it will all react against each other, and then you won't know what is working, and what is not. I know that it is very frustrating:(. Just check your ph, I think when it comes down, and the chorine is at 5 the iron will go back into solution. Your chlorine level should consistently be no lower than 5 with your cya level or you risk getting an algae attack. You don't need anymore sequestering agent as far as I can see. What is your calcium level? Calcium is a metal itself, if the level is too high now with the calhypo and the calcium you added, it could be a problem. You may have to drain and refill a third of the water to get rid of the calcium - Let me know how you do, I am pullin for you:D

[newpoolgirl]

If my calcium in normal should i just go to using bleach? if so, please direct me. also, stopped at this other pool store today on my way to work to check out their prices on sequestering agents. I did not spend any money this time. How long do you think i should wait before i try another sequesterant if the water doesn't clear? they had this 1/2 hp sand filter made for intex pools for $239. do you think that would be worth the investment if i ever get this water under control? Patience, what is that, lol.

[PoolDoc]

Hi,
my pucks,shock and chlorine granules were all calhypo.

Are you SURE? That's very unusual, but not impossible. Removing metals with cal hypo is different than with triclor, and can be more successful. But, I'm not sure if you could do it on an Intex with no skimmer.

PoolDoc

[newpoolgirl]

pool doc
that's what the bottles and bucket said was calcium hypochlor.... There is a skimmer on the pool. it hangs in water and screws to side(metal frame pool) then there is hose that goes from skimmer to liner adapter on inside of pool.

[PoolDoc]

I guess the one I'm really suspicious the container of "pucks" -- make SURE they are cal hypo. If they are, and if you are using ONLY cal hypo or bleach to chlorinate AND if you have a skimmer . . .

. . . then there may be a way to remove the iron.

But verify the pucks, first. Bad things happen with trichlor and cal hypo when they get close to each other.

PoolDoc

[newpoolgirl]

The chlorine pucks are made of:
calcium hypochlorite 47.6%
other ingredients 52.4%

last night when i talked to my husband from work around 730pm, he said the pool water was the worst it has ever been. i looked at it this morning and he was right. so dark that i can't even see bottom. this has never happened to me before where it has gotten worse. We are changing the filter cartridges constantly. Do you think i should just just go buy that sand filter?

[waterbear]

newpoolgirl,

What is the brand on the pucks and what color is the lid? some manufacturers use yellow lids on cal hypo and orange on trichlor.
Also, there are not that many cal hypo tabs on the market.

[newpoolgirl]

it's hth brand pucks. the lid is yellow. (their trichlor lid is orange)

i do have a breakthrough...lol...i was holding off of adding more sequestrant since our conversation yesterday, but since my water was looking worse, i bought some cheap brand and put it in this AM. now my water went from brown to cloudy greenish color :) there is alot of stuff settling on bottom. i made my own vac system out of intex vac head that came with pool. bought a cheap hose and stuck that on the end where the bag would go on vac head, and shoved other end of that hose into intake on inside of pool. it was sucking stuff up, but the cartridges didn't filter it. everything was going back into pool. Went out and bought sand filter made by AquaQuik, now i can vacuum and clean water goes back into pool. hoping that this filter clears the water for me so I can start over.

If this works should i continue with the pucks i have?
What is the real deal with shocking? Do I shock and continue to have brown water?
Bleach is the cheaper way to go?

[mbar]

I'm glad you are having some success! I would keep the filter running, and keep your chlorine at 5 (it is not shocking your water at that level). If you can give us a new set of numbers it would be good. The metal out you put in the water probably took your ph down. I would not add anything else for now. Just keep vacuuming and see how it looks tomorrow.:) I would go to regular bleach. You don't want to add anything but chlorine to your water. Your cya is already at 60, and you may already have a high calcium level. You just have to keep the chlorine up there. You don't have to shock for now if the pool is holding chlorine.

[newpoolgirl]

Day 2
water is no longer mint green, now it is just cloudy.
today's #'s
Hardness 150
TC 0
FC 0
pH 7.2
TA 140
CYA 50

do you think the cloudy water will clear on it's own?
Should I start adding the bleach now or should i add more sequestering agent before i do just in case?

[PoolDoc]

Please put some chlorine in ASAP -- whatever kind you've got.

Pools 'spoil' VERY quickly in hot sunny weather without chlorine. I will try to look at all that's gone on in your pool since I last posted, but can't do so right this minute. But I did want to encourage you to get some chlorine in before it's too late.

Ben
"PoolDoc"

[waterbear]

it's hth brand pucks. the lid is yellow. (their trichlor lid is orange)



Yes, these are cal hypo pucks for use in the skimmer BUT they do contain copper if they are the 'dual action' ones!!!!!!
The ones I sold did. (NOT my choice or my decision to make.)

[newpoolgirl]

ok I will add chlorine. just wasn't sure if i had to wait a day or 2 after the sequestering agent. Also, can someone paste that site for the bleach calculation per the water test. I know it's on here somewhere but I can't find it. thx

[mbar]

Do you mean this chart?

Ben's 'best guess' FC/Stabilizer table for algae free operation of OUTDOOR pools -- as of July 2003 --

Use the info in this chart to help you figure out what levels of chlorine you need to maintain in your pool based on the amount of CYA (cyanuric acid, also called stabilizer) that you have in your pool. (FC = free chlorine)



Stabilizer . . . . . . Min. FC . . . . Max FC . . . 'Shock' FC
=> 0 ppm . . . . . . . 1 ppm . . . . . 3 ppm . . . . 10 ppm
=> 10 - 20 ppm . . . . 2 ppm . . . . . 5 ppm . . . . 12 ppm
=> 30 - 50 ppm . . . . 3 ppm . . . . . 6 ppm . . . . 15 ppm
=> 60 - 90 ppm . . . . 5 ppm . . . . . 10 ppm . . .. 20 ppm
=> 100 - 200 ppm . . . 8 ppm . . . . . 15 ppm . . .. 25 ppm

[newpoolgirl]

I found it not too long after i wrote my last post. It figures..lol. It was actually a site called "the pool calculator". Anyways at 3pm i added 5cups of bleach(6%), then went to party. came home at 1030pm and tested and my FC and TC are still 0. my other #'s didn't change. i added 1qt 2c. 4oz. as to what that site calculated. guess we will see in morning if it does anything. My water was still cloudy. I just hope i don't turn it brown again. wish me luck cause i need it. What do you think about a clarifier?

[mbar]

I would hold off on the clarifier. You already have a lot going on in your water. Keep up with the chlorine.

[PoolDoc]

OK, I scrolled back to find your gallons -- 5,000. So, a gallon of bleach in your pool is about 12 ppm.

Verify with a cheap OTO kit -- turns yellow to brown with chlorine and will NOT bleach out with high chlorine -- that your chlorine is LOW and not HIGH.

Once you've done so, start by adding 1 - 2 quart (3 - 6 ppm) doses every hour till you get a chlorine reading. If you add 3 doses and still no chlorine, start adding gallons.

But be SURE to use OTO to test, so you will show high chlorine if it goes high! Other test methods can read zero when it's really high, due to bleaching.

Green pools (from algae) are no fun to clean up, but I'm not sure what's going on in your pool. Normally, in a vinyl pool, any sort of algal growth will be accompanied by (and usually, preceded by) a biofilm on the liner. You can detect this as a slimy feel to the liner. As long as that slime is there, you're not done with the algae.

I see discussion of various sequestrants and stuff. Many, many 'pool chemicals' are not really chlorine compatible. Some will consume chlorine like crazy. But without knowing EXACTLY what you've put in, I can only guess. It's really hard to clean up a pool with metals AND algae AND unknown chemical soup.

But, ya gotta keep chlorine in the pool, or stuff will grow.

Ben
"PoolDoc"

[newpoolgirl]

Tested pool this morning after adding the bleach last night and strips showed it at 0 again. (If i dip a strip in pure bleach it shows color). Added more chlorine this am due to running out of bleach(will go buy more today). As soon as I dumped it around pool, I stuck strip in(for my own peace of mind) and it did show high chlorine level. It's going to be hot all week here in NE PA. I have been adding algecide as instructed on bottle, and I've never had a slimy liner. Can't find one with polyquat 60%(however you spell it) in it around here.

I have been running new sand filter all night. "I think" that it's less cloudy, but it could be just my imagination. Going to vacuum again today. When I did yesterday there was alot of what looked grey going into filter.

POOL DOC Chemicals ADDED:
32oz Metal out beginning of june
32oz Metal control middle june
32 oz Pool stain treat. (Used 16oz approx almost 3 wks ago (cleared water) got to swim finally for about 2 wks and then used other 16oz approx. on 6/30 when water turned brown. It did not clear this time with procuct.
16oz pool breeze metal treat on approx 7/2 water turned from brown to mint green on7/3, then just cloudy white on 7/4. This is where I am now trying to add bleach to get chlorine reading.

I know, a chemical bath.

[PoolDoc]

OK.

That's not so good.

Do you have exact brands and label names of the "Metal ...." products? Many of those products contain HEDP. Typically, a bottle will be an appropriate dose for a full size 20x40. If that's the case, you may have added a 7x overdose of HEDP to your pool . . . TWICE.

HEDP, in overdose conditions, can precipitate calcium phosphonate as an essentially un-filterable colloidal (really, really small particle) suspension. I did this once, to a 240,000 gallon pool, turning it into a pool filled with 'milk'. It took us two weeks with a massive vacuum DE filter to clean it up.

And, that's just the "Metal . . ." stuff.

Pool Stain Treat is a United Chemical product. Their products notoriously work like black magic: impressive results up front, with a horrible price at the end. They put sodium bromide in almost everything. In Pool Stain Treat, it would lower the oxidation potential of the sanitizer (by changing it to bromine) thus tending to reduce the staining. But bromide INSTANTLY changes your pool to stabilized bromine. They also like oxalic acid. But besides its toxicity (probably not a major risk, because of the way it's applied), oxalic acid has its own chlorine demand. I don't know how large the demand is (Chem Geek may), but it exists.

Honestly, at this point, I have no idea what's in your pool, or what it's doing.

If you have an above ground pool, the most straight forward thing would be to drain and refill. At least that way, we'd be working with a couple of known issues, rather than half a dozen unknown ones.

If you don't drain, we may find you can clean things up in a few days. Or, it may not clear all summer long.

Good luck,

PoolDoc

[waterbear]

Pool Stain Treat is a United Chemical product. Their products notoriously work like black magic: impressive results up front, with a horrible price at the end. They put sodium bromide in almost everything.

Ben,
Pool Stain Treat (and the the Pool Stain Treat spotting bags also) are oxalic acid. 1 lb treats 10k so in her 5k pool this is enough of an overdose to create problems It is a reducing agent just like ascorbic and also creates the same type of chlorine demand! This is one of their products from the short list that is NOT sodium bromide.

[newpoolgirl]

ummmm...figures.. Will I glow if I swim in it? lol

When my pool water turned brown this last time that's when it got cloudy. It turned brown cause my husband added shock and chlorine granules w/in a matter of a few hours.. That was before i added the rest of oxalic acid 16oz and 16oz of United chemicals Metal treat(Tricurboxylic Acid/Phophonbutane).

How do I not get my water to keep turning if I'm not adding a metal treat prevenative dose.( I know I over did it)

But I got my chlorine level to hold for 4 hours the 1st time of my pools life.:)
pH 7.2
TC 1
FC 4

[PoolDoc]

Hi NPG;

When you have iron in your water, turning brown is what it has to do before you can get it out. Brown iron is the filterable form!

What you could do is drain, refill, and add polyquat as you fill to prevent algae, etc. Then gradually chlorinate with calcium hypochlorite added to the skimmer (I can't remember, do you have a skimmer?) in small doses.

This while STILL cause it to turn brown, but hopefully, you can filter it out as it does.

If not, the other option is to chlorinate, let it all turn nice and brown, then turn the pump off and let it settle. Then, siphon vacuum it off the bottom and out of the pool. Of course, you'll have to refill some after you do, but you might be able to fill to flooding if you are planning to do this, and then vacuum down to normal levels.

Ben
"PoolDoc"

[newpoolgirl]

will the sand filter catch this brown?

[PoolDoc]

It should.

AG pool filters tend to be undersized, and the pumps oversized. Your filter will perform better if you can throttle the flow back some.

Ben
"PoolDoc"

[newpoolgirl]

i don't know what throttle the flow means, but wish me luck.

[newpoolgirl]

I just wanted to thank you all for your help. If it wasn't for all of the support and knowlege from this forum I would have never had a clear pool. It took a while and alot of vacuuming, but I am finally able to swim in a clear pool. I am even able to shock w/o dealing with brown water. I love the BBB method, and all of your other tips and tricks. This forum is amazing. Keep up the good work.
Thanks again,
Kristy

[aylad]

Thanks for the update!! We always like to hear about it when you finally reach the end of that long road and find out that you CAN have a clean, clear pool.

Happy Swimming!!

Janet