CYA/crystal clear green water

[purplegirl]

Hello all, I am new to this forum; this is my first post.

I have been having A LOT of issues with my brand new 16' intex SWG pool. I just put it up two weeks ago and from the moment I finished filling it I've had green water. Since the water was brand new I didn't think it was algae (it didn't have any of the algae characteristics, plus it was BRAND new water)

First I used 2 different products to treat metals. The first did nothing the second turned the water from a dark greenish-brown to a light crystal clear green. I've tried shocking but later had no chlorine reading. I tried an algaecide and that didn't work either.

My PH is 7.6, Alk is 80

I was also told I had high phosphates, which now I know (from reading on this forum) doesn't matter. So I tried using a phosphate remover (which still has my water cloudy).

I then learned I have a CYA reading of 0 which no one bothered testing (I've had the water tested by 3 pool stores). This is the reason I have a chlorine reading of 0 (not the phosphates, which is what the pool store told me).

I put dry stabilizer into the pool but of course had a problem there too. The instructions said to mix the granules with warm water and then pour into the skimmer. I did this but immediately had a clog (intex pool!!) So instead I dumped the granules into the pool. I am now afraid the stabilizer granules will be stuck at the bottom of the pool and will not disolve. I was hoping to shock the pool tonight after I was able to raise the CYA level, but if the granules don't disolve I'm not sure what I'm going to do.

Do you think I have a problem with the stabilizers and does anyone have a clue to why my pool is a CRYSTAL CLEAR green? I am so frustrated and so are my kids!

Sorry about the long post. Thanks in advance!

[Watermom]

Did you by any chance fill from a well? Your description of your water sounds like a metals issue.

Re: CYA -- it is an acid and you don't really want it laying on your liner floor. If you vacuum it up and send it the filter it will clog the filter up? If that is the case, can you vacuum to waste meaning throw the vacuumed water out of the pool? If so, then it would probably be better to put the cya granules in an old sock and tie it in front of a return jet. It does take awhile to dissolve. Actually, you should probably test your cya level before adding the sock to see how much actually has already dissolved. You do NOT want too much cya in there.

Can you list exactly what all you have put in this pool --- meaning ingredients?

BTW -- welcome to the forum!

[purplegirl]

The manufacturers instrustions said to split the recommended amount by 4 hours. The first half, for the most part, has surprisingly disolved; so I put the other half in. The application should raise CYA to 30ppm, and since I'm at 0 I figured I should be good at that. I am hoping to take a sample to the pool store tonight to make sure the pool is ready for a shock.

I do not have well water, just really bad tap water. Sometimes when I fill my bathtub with water it comes out a brownish orange color.

What really surprises me, in-retrospect, is that the water was greenish-brown without any chlorine present. From my readings the water doesn't change color until chlorine is introduced to the metals.

I used Metalfree by Natural Chemistry, (I'm sorry I can't find the bottle) which did not help. I emailed the manufacturer and they said that Metalfree would not work with trace metals or copper, but that I should use their Stainfree to get out heavy metals and iron. Before I got that response I purchased Liquid Magnet, manufactured by a local pool chain, they do not list their ingredients. This turned the water from dark green (but still translucent) to a light green. I did a second application of the liquid magnet about 4 days later but the color did not change at all. Metal testing resulted in a 0.10ppm reading.

The algeacide I used was black algaecide treatment, which I clearly do not have but since I knew even less than I do now I purchased it, according to the pool stores recommendation. (I hate those places!) I don't know what was in that because I gave it away, disgusted.

I have no idea what is causing this green color. The walls are not slimy and I don't see any algae. Please help!

[Watermom]

A few questions:
-- What is your chlorine level?
-- What is the volume of your pool?
-- Who tested for metals and how recently? If not recent, ask the pool store to test it for you.
-- What source are using for your chlorine?

Get a complete set of water testing results and post them. (You need to get a good test kit like the Taylor K-2006 so you can do your own testing daily.)

Do NOT add a bunch of stuff from the pool store unless you ask about it here. Do NOT shock the pool yet.

[purplegirl]

My chlorine level is 0 and has been since I started running my SWG, which I was running for 12 hours a day for over a week. My salt levels are normal (I don't know the number)

My metals were tested yesterday when they read 0.10ppm.

Most of the CYA has disolved and I hope to get to the pool store soon to have them test the CYA level. (I plan on buying a kit soon)

I was really hoping to shock tonight since I will be away for the weekend. I haven't run my SWG since I found out I had no CYA in the water (a couple of days).

Thanks again for all your help

[purplegirl]

I forgot to include the volume, which is 5000 gallons

[mbar]

I am not really sure of what is going on in your pool. It does sound like there may be a metal problem. I would not do anything else to the water now except get chlorine and cya in it. Once the water is sanitized, then we can treat the metals. Just work on getting the water ready to swim in first. You can swim in a pool that is stained, but not in water that is not sanitized. If you can get your water tested and post some numbers again we can help. Remember the stabilizer will not show up for a while, so you will have to keep up with the chlorine demand. One way to test if your water is holding chlorine is to test the water after the sun has gone down, and again in the morning before the sun hits the pool. Once the chlorine holds with 1 ppms, then you are good to go. It means that it isn't fighting anything in your water. Sometimes the metal out you put in will use up chlorine too. Once the water is sanitized, then we can work on the metals.

[purplegirl]

I was unable to get to the pool store so I don't know what the CYA reading is. When I get back I will try to get all of my levels and then I will post. Thanks again and have a good weekend!

[purplegirl]

okay so the pool is still green and cloudy (from the phosphate remover, even though it's been 4 days since i put it in)

i had the water tested at the pool store and the readings were:
ph: 7.2
Alk: 110
TC: 2.0
CYA: 30-50 range

so the pool is sanitized, but still green?
i clean the cartridge everyday, and everyday it is brown and has some gook on it? nobody is swimming in the pool, how can it be so dirty?
should i try a metal remover again to get the green out? and which one?

how can i get the cloudy water to be clear without adding another pool store product?

[PoolDoc]

Hi Purple Girl;

(Why purple?)

Anyhow, sorry I didn't look in sooner. Green water on first fill is often iron from bacterially mediated corrosion of steel pipes or containers. I know from more experience than I care to remember that in such cases:
Iron tests will show little or no iron.
Chelants and metal treats have little affect.
It will EVENTUALLY dissipate with chlorine, sunshine and filtration.
It's perfectly safe to swim in, if your chlorine level is good and your water clear.


But, I'm afraid you've been "poolstored", to use Carl's word. Phosphate removers work by precipitating phosphorous in one of two forms, one of which is hard to filter out. The other form is REALLY hard to filter out. (To be fair: the pool store staff probably doesn't know ANY of this.)

With a DE filter, it's not too bad. With a sand filter, my experience is a week plus. I've never tried to remove with an undersized Intex cartridge filter, and I'd never want to do so. My guess is that with an Intex filter it might take forever, or at least till fall. :(

Basically, AG pool filters come in two flavors: those that don't work very well, because they are too small, and those that work really badly because they are WAY too small. Intex pools fall into the second category.

IF you fill with clean water, and IF you never let it get cloudy, THEN it's possible to keep the water in an Intex pool clear. Otherwise, not so much.

So, it looks to me like you've got two choices.

First, you could just live with it. So long as you keep the chlorine up, and everything else OK, the iron will eventually filter or settle out. Then, you'll have a blue cloudy pool, instead of a green cloudy pool. Of course, you'll need to be careful: you'll have no warning when algae is starting, so you'll want to keep the chlorine high-ish.

Or, second, you could drain and refill. Your pool will STILL be green when you start, but you won't add the phosphate remover this time, and it will be ONLY green, instead of green and cloudy.

Do NOT waste your money on metal removers: they don't. They just help the metals stay IN the water; they do nothing to get the metals OUT of your water and pool. Besides, they often don't work with biologically sourced iron.

PoolDoc

[purplegirl]

Wow Pool Doc that was a thorough analysis!

Purplegirl because I like purple, no other reason - pretty boring actually :)

One of the metal removers I used seemed to work in the beginning but then leveled off and then obviously still left my pool green.

Could I use a clarifier to get the cloudy out?

I hate having two problems now!

I wonder if I could call my water company to fix the corrosion. Of course that wouldn't help me right now.

I have to think about what I want to do, but you've given me a lot of good insight.

Thank you!!

[PoolDoc]

Clarifiers only help the filter filter by making the particles clump together -- if the filter sux, clarifiers don't help much. Besides that, clarifiers can only make certain types of particles clump -- I'm not certain, but I don't think the phosphate particles are the 'right' kind.

Ironically, if the particles aren't the 'right' kind, clarifiers actually make things worse!

Regarding the corrosion -- the "corrosion" is probably just normal 'inside of the iron pipe' corrosion; the water company wouldn't consider it anything that needed fixing. In any case, the 'fix' is to replace the water mains entirely, and in this economy, that will NOT happen till it has to happen!

PoolDoc

[purplegirl]

Thanks again Pool Doc, you've shed a lot of light on the situation. We are thinking about draining and then asking a neighbor, who has a crystal clear pool, if we could pay to use their water. My only concern with that is when I need to top the pool off after swimming and such. Do you think the amount of water over the course of the summer will turn the water green?

[PoolDoc]

Might. Probably won't. Can't tell for sure. :rolleyes:

PoolDoc


PS:
There were some comments about the safety of draining a vinyl pool. IG (inground) vinyl pools can almost never be safely drained -- you'll often loose your liner if you do. AG (above ground) pools can be drained safely, depending on size and liner type. Little ones almost always can be drained. Large ones, may not be able to be drained.

But Intex type pools can always be drained.

[CarlD]

Especially the donuts--you have to drain them every season.

[purplegirl]

I drained my pool and started refilling it using a different water source (my neighbor's hose, whith permission of course :) ) the pool is not quite filled 1/4 of the way and already we are have tinted green water. The liner is a checkered blue print. i have no idea what could be causing this discoloration. could it be metals even though i haven't introduced chlorine into the pool yet. i am almost positive it isn't algea. please help!

[PoolDoc]

Every single time I've seen water that was immediately green on fill, it was iron from corroded pipes or tanks. It's easy to remove with time, chlorine and good filters.

Not so easy on Intex type AGs. It will probably be converted into red Iron(II) oxide and form an orange (rust colored) dust sitting on the bottom of the pool each morning.

Now, if it's taken you several days to fill . . . it still could be algae. But, on a vinyl pool algae is almost always accompanied (usually, preceded) by a slimy feel to the vinyl surface (biofilm).

PoolDoc

[purplegirl]

Thanks again Pool Doc, this is just so frustrating because our neighbor has always had a clear pool, it's starting to feel like it's our bad luck.

You say chlorine is part of the battle, we have a SWG, which I know makes chlorine but will this "type" of chlorine be suitable for our purposes? Sorry if this sounds like a silly question - I only barely understand the salt conversion process.

[Watermom]

Chlorine is chlorine regardless of the source. SWCG will produce chlorine; however whenever you need to shock or superchlorinate it is usually better to use another source (like bleach or liquid chlorine) and save the wear and tear on your cell and thus extend its life.

[CarlD]

Having had an Intex 15' donut for 3 years I can assure that if you keep your water properly maintained the filter should be sufficient. But I can also assure you that if you run into problems you will be washing down that cartridge every 24 hours and it STILL may take weeks to clear up. About the only thing you can do with confidence is sanitize the pool with lots and lots of chlorine--but clearing cloudy water or constant precipitation? VERY hard to do.

But if it's sanitary and you check your chlorine levels every single day, you CAN keep it safe enough to swim in.

[purplegirl]

how high should i keep the chlorine to help nix the iron problem? I'm curious does CYA usually occur naturally or does it always need to be added? When I filled the first time I had a 0 CYA reading, should I expect I will I have this same problem?

[aylad]

CYA doies not occur naturally, you're going to have to add it each time you start the pool up. However, once you get it up to your target, the only way to lower it is drain/refill, so be careful when adding it not to overshoot.

As far as managing water with iron in it, read through the metals forums, particularly any thread/post by mbar, to get an idea of what you'll need to do. High chlorine levels and high pH levels are going to make the iron tend to drop out of solution, so it's going to requre regular doses of metal sequestrant to keep the metals suspended in the water and not discoloring your pool.

Janet