Hayward Pump and Sand Filter Issue

[kevev99]

Hi all. I'm new to the forums, but have a question on an issue that's been driving me nuts since I opened my pool about 2 weeks ago. I'll detail it all out:

Pool and Equipment: 18'x34'x52" with Hayward S230T sand filter with Vari-Flo 6 position valve and Hayward SP1593 Power-Flo Matrix 1.5hp pump - 6th season of use

Problem: Water leaking out backwash connection when filter in "FILTER" position

So I opened my pool up and got everything hooked up. The sand filter stays outside year round and I put the pump in the garage during winter time. However, 2 years ago I did not so it was out all winter (which could be a contributing issue now). Everything is hooked up, I turn on the pump with the filter valve in "FILTER" position and I get water leaking out the backwash connection. I set it to "BACKWASH" and have almost no pressure with water flowing out significantly slower than expected. The only setting that works with no leaking is "RECIRCULATE". I investigate the issue and think I need to put a new Vari-Flo valve on the filter. I order a new one and replace it, as well as replacing 250 lbs of sand, reconnect everything, start the pump, and have no leaking in "FITLER" position for the first 24-30 hours. After that it starts leaking again. I do more investigating and find that it could be the pump. So I take the pump apart as best I can and clean/lubricate the o-rings, but I can't get the impeller off. No screws, but it was stuck. Keep in mind I have heard some sort of a hum hear and there, and I have the same issue of almost no pressure for "BACKWASH" with the new valve.

So my question is: Is the pump going bad? I'm thinking that from the impeller on back to the motor it is possibly rusted/corroded/gunked up, and as a result not rotating at the proper RPMs to push the water through, causing the leak when in "FILTER" and the lack of flow when in "BACKWASH". I've tried smacking the casing with a rubber mallet to loosen any particles up, but no luck. Can somebody help me out with some suggestions before I drop $300 on a new pump?

Thanks.

[waste]

Welcome to the forum!

Sorry you're having this trouble :(

My first thought, on reading your story, would be that the wagon wheel A/K/A spider gasket in the multiport was bad.

However, is the water still coming out the backwash port with the new Vari-Flo valve?

Does the impeller turn easily by hand? (if yes, read on - if no, the shaft is seized and we can tell you how to fix that :))

I'm having a little trouble figuring this one out, but suspect a clogged impeller - have you been vacuuming a bunch of 'crud' (especially the leafy pollen string type)? Or perhaps a leak from the discharge port on the pump itself (rather than the multiport). Or maybe a seal assembly issue, water would leak from underneath the pump, where the motor meets the housing.

Any chance of giving us a picture of the system/ where the water is leaking (photobucket is how I post pics - but you might be able to do it without their service) We may have a simple terminology issue (you call it "X" and I call it "Y") - if we can get on the same page, I'll most likely be able to help you :cool:

[Watermom]

Ted --- Unfortunately, temporary members are not able to post pictures. If Kevin wants to bump up to the "subscriber" level, he would be able to though. Just an FYI.

[waste]

Thanks Lisa, I pray all is well with you/ your health and your family! :)

Could a photobucket link be a 'work-around'? (a link to an outside source to view the pic)

(No! I have no connection to photobucket but, I can use it, despite the fact I'm 'technologically challenged' :D)

[Watermom]

Sorry. Live links aren't allowed either for temporary subscribers.

[Poconos]

Reading your post several times I have to agree with Ted in that the multiport valve seems to have a problem. Doesn't explain the new one doing the same thing though. Ted is also questioning the source of the leak if I read it right. Valve or pump. That should be easy to determine. As for the pump not running up to speed, unlikely. These motors will run at a pretty constant RPM and if you load them to the point of slowing them down then they would overheat quickly. Another point, the pump has nothing to do with a leaking multiport.
Al

[kevev99]

Hi all. Thanks for the thoughts. To answer Ted's questions:

Yes the leak is still happening with the new valve. It started about 24 hours after install of new valve. When I took pump apart the impeller was able to be moved counter and clockwise albeit slowly and couldn't just be spun. The pump motor also sounds more like it is humming versus the usual sound.

I don't notice water leaking underneath the pump. Maybe from the connection from the pump to filter although it's not a flow leak more of a drip.

I can take photos and email if need be.

Kevin

[Poconos]

Hi again,
Take a look at this thread.
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=9455

I still don't understand why a new valve would have that problem and really have no further advice at this point. Per that thread you can maybe diagnose the problem further. On the pump rotor not spinning freely......lot of friction somewhere. Only places are the impeller itself with something wrapped around the shaft or the bearings. I assume you broke things down far enough to rule out impeller issues. Bearings would tend to make a grinding noise when they're about to fail. You may want to take the motor apart further to isolate the problem(s). I should also mention that no part of the impeller should touch the pump housing. The clearance between moving parts is small but there should be no physical contact. I could imagine the pump chamber deforming a little due to overheating and causing the impeller to contact its housing but that's grasping at straws so to speak.
Al

[kevev99]

Thanks Al. I got down to the impeller but couldn't get it off. I didn't realize I had to remove the screws at the back of the motor and then put something in the shaft to keep it from moving to get it off. I'm going to give that a try and get the impeller off and take the whole motor apart to see if I notice anything. I'm going to clean it well because I'm guessing there is something in there impeding it from rotating properly.

I talked to a friend of mine who works on motors/generators/turbines and ran my thoughts by him on the impeller and it not rotating right would that cause the flow to be off. He asked about the normal psi and I said 15-20 but it's running about 8-10. It's half of what it should be. He said it could be that. Off to give it a try now and see if it works to fix the problem. Will report back in a bit.

Kevin

[kevev99]

So I just finished taking everything apart and putting it back together. Got the impeller off and there was a little gunk in the spring connected to it so I cleaned it out. Found the hose from the pool to the pump had a leak so I replaced that. I also took the Vari-Flo valve off and cleaned that area out. Put that back together when it was all dry.

It's filtering now but there is still a trickle coming out the backwash connection. I made sure to redo all connections with plumber's tape. Thoughts? Let me know if you still need me to post some photos.

Kevin

[kevev99]

Hi all. So I wanted to update as to the status of my pesky backwash overflow while filtering. It continued to get worse yesterday. The trickle turned into a full on flow. So in the words of Gordon Ramsay I "Shut it down!" At that point I was full on frustrated and not sure what to do.

I went back and re-read posts from you all to see if I could "see through the cloudy water" so to speak. I kept coming back to one thing: the spider gasket inside the Vari-Flo valve. My thought was this is the only plausible problem. I know that they are supposed to be sealed in place with some sort of adhesive. The reason why everyone says when you replace it to make sure you scrape the channel clean before putting in a new one with adhesive. Well don't you know the spider gasket inside the new Vari-Flo valve I installed wasn't sealed in place. I took the valve assembly off and the thing actually fell out. So I figured that was why there was a leak.

So last night my father-in-law called and offered his assistance to help diagnose the problem. I told him the above about the spider gasket and that at this stage I'm 99% sure it's the issue. He offered to come down and help, more for moral support than anything. We took it apart, took out the gasket, put in a silicone-based water approved sealant (approved for use inside aquariums) into the gasket channel, and reset the gasket. Guess I'll find out tomorrow if it worked.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and help. Greatly appreciated. I hope this is my solution.

Kevin

[kevev99]

Hi all. Back with an update. So after fixing the spider gasket the leak still occurred. I called a local pool repair guy and explained everything to him. He asked about my eyeball return and I indicated I had a light return in place the apst few years instead of an eyeball. he said it was possible there could be a pressure issue somewhere and that I should replace the light with the eyeball and see if that fixed the issue. I did this last night and it didn't work.

However, I did notice what I will call a pressure "kickback" from the return line to the pool back into the Vari-Flo valve. I started up the pump and it started going, about 5-10 seconds in the where a "kickback" of pressure from the pool through the return line into the Vari-Flo valve, causing the handle to unseat/adjust, which I believe lifted the spider gasket and the seal is then broken. Thoughts on how to figure out where the pressure leak could be so I can fix this?

Kevin

[Poconos]

I think what you're describing is a 'slamming' or 'hammer' effect. You get a mass of fluid moving then slam a valve shut or something to suddenly stop the flow. Fluid tries to keep moving and in your case the weakest point is the variflow valve and it lifts the spring loaded valve mechanism...the handle. I know you don't want to hear this but I never heard of something like this. Even with the return lines totally blocked there shouldn't be enough static pressure to lift that handle. Almost sounds like there is something in the return pipe that gets moving and jams to block the flow. Any kind of motor driven valves in the system that could be doing something unexpected? How about a heater? After this event do you still get flow from the returns? Whatever is causing this can definitely unseat that gasket no matter how well it is glued in. You have one heck of a pressure spike. I think BP may be trying to figure out something like this too.

To summarize:
-- Any chance of some object in the plumbing?
-- Do you still get flow out the returns after the event?
-- Any motor driven valves in the system?
-- How about a heater?

Just think of the satiisfaction you'll have when you solve this problem.
Al

Edit: Thought of something else. Remove your eyeballs to open up the returns and see if anything changes.

[kevev99]

I think what you're describing is a 'slamming' or 'hammer' effect. You get a mass of fluid moving then slam a valve shut or something to suddenly stop the flow. Fluid tries to keep moving and in your case the weakest point is the variflow valve and it lifts the spring loaded valve mechanism...the handle. I know you don't want to hear this but I never heard of something like this. Even with the return lines totally blocked there shouldn't be enough static pressure to lift that handle. Almost sounds like there is something in the return pipe that gets moving and jams to block the flow. Any kind of motor driven valves in the system that could be doing something unexpected? How about a heater? After this event do you still get flow from the returns? Whatever is causing this can definitely unseat that gasket no matter how well it is glued in. You have one heck of a pressure spike. I think BP may be trying to figure out something like this too.

To summarize:
-- Any chance of some object in the plumbing?
-- Do you still get flow out the returns after the event?
-- Any motor driven valves in the system?
-- How about a heater?

Just think of the satiisfaction you'll have when you solve this problem.
Al

Edit: Thought of something else. Remove your eyeballs to open up the returns and see if anything changes.

Hi Al,

To answer - No object in the plumbing. It's a brand new return hose from the filter to the pool. Yes there is flow out of the return (I only have one) and it is excessively strong. No motor driven valves. The only motor is the pump itself that's only 1.5hp. No heater either. It's the hose from the skimmer (brand new) to the pump. The hose from the pump to the valve, and the hose from the valve to the return/eyeball. I have an inline chlorinator to install but haven't done so yet as I want to solve the filtering issue first. I agree it will be very satisfying to solve this. I'll try removing the eyeball tomorrow. Thanks!

Kevin

[kevev99]

Hi all. I have an update: THE FILTER IS WORKING! I talked to another pool guy today. He wasn't sure, but gave me the # for a place in the area that specializes in above ground pools and filters. I called them. The guy I spoke to said he thought the new valve I bought may be defective and they had another in stock. So I go up there tonight to pick it up. Another guy was there and I told him what was up. He said Hayward in the last 2-3 years switched the PUMP and RETURN connections on the Vari Flo valves. So even though the valve looks identical to my old valve, the connections could be reversed. He said before I open the new valve and install it to check the connections. I did, it was connected backwards, I reversed them and now there is no leak and the filter is filtering. So I'll return the unopened valve tomorrow.

Thanks to all for your input, suggestions, feedback, and encouragement. It was very welcome, and I know I can rely on the folks here at the Pool Forum if I have future issues. I know the next thing on my agenda after I use up all the chemicals I have is to figure out how to chlorinate, level ph, and maintain everything using bleach, borax, etc so I can save $$$ on that.

Thanks again - Kevin

[waste]

Kevin, I am so very happy you got this fixed!!

I hadn't heard about that problem, but will keep it in mind, next time I run into a similar issue - thank you!


I really hope the pool won't give you any more trouble, but would like to see you around here anyway :cool:

[Poconos]

Glad to hear you solved the problem Kevin. Somewhere buried in the bowels of this forum I vaguely remember something about a variflow being plumbed backwards. Don't remember any other detail. Must have been a Hayward. Why do they do this stuff?
Al

[kevev99]

I know the whole being plumbed backwards thing is odd. The guy at the pool store said it caught him off guard a few years ago. He'd did an install the day before and everything hooked up as expected. Did another install the next, hooked it up as he normally did, and the customer called a day later about a leak. He went back and noticed that the intake/outtake were switched. Swapped the connections and all was good.

Glad he told me about it so I didn't open the box with the new Vari Flo I bought tonight and can return it tomorrow for a full refund.

I'll be around as I'm sure others will post questions about things I've encountered in the past. And I definitely want to wean myself off of pool chemicals and use everyday things to save money. Everyone here is great and I'll be sure to pop in every so often.

Kevin

[Alemeg]

New to the site. Don't know if I am asking this question in the right place but here goes. I'm a rookie at below ground pools but have been able to figure things out so far. My current problem is getting my pool crystal clear. Yesterday, I noticed after asking my wife to turn on the pump. That clouds burst from my two returns in the shallow end of the pool. Pretty sure I have a filter problem. I bought the pool with the house so I don't know how old the filter is. It could be theoriginal (aka over 20 yrs old). It is a Heyward Sand Filter. Pump is working fine. Just looking where to start trouble shooting....or do I just replace the old filter?

Any thoughts where to start?

[aylad]

Alemeg,

The best thing for you to do would be to cut and paste your above post into a brand new thread. Just go to the main page for the AG pool equipment and construction forum, and look for the "new thread" button on the top left of the screen. You'll get more views and helpful information that way. The original poster of this thread pretty much has his problem solved, so this thread isn't going to be getting very much attention from those that can help.

Welcome to the forum!!
Janet