Help Deciphering My Taylor Test Results

[labdi01]

I just moved to a house that has a pool. I'd never had a pool before - so I'm new to pools and the forum.

We opened the pool 3 weeks ago and had been battling iron. We seem to have won that battle.

Based on the advise of the experts here, I purchased a Taylor 2006 test kit. I had been depending on the pool store for my water results and acted based on their numbers (and the advice of the forum). I went to the store this morning and have those results. I also received my Taylor kit this afternoon, and just performed all the testing. They don't come close to the pool store - but I trust my Taylor more.

Here are the comparisons:

Taylor Pool Store
FC - 15 CL - 3
CC - 4.5 TC - 3
pH - 7.2 pH - 7.2
TA - 60 TA - 130
CA - 50 CA - 50
CYA - 50 CYA - 100

I'm fairly confident I used the Taylor test correctly. Sometimes their descriptions of color isn't exactly what I got. In those cases, adding more of the reagent that was to change the color didn't make a difference. (The chlorine diff makes sense to me because I shocked w/ 2# cal hypo after I got their numbers - the rest doesn't make sense)

Anyway - based on these numbers, it looks like I have a FC/CC issue?

Based on other posts I'd read, I'm guessing I have to keep adding bleach until the level holds (with a 1-2 ppm buffer) overnight and CC goes down to 0.5?

I'm just not sure how to approach this. Do I try to keep it at it's current level of 15? How often throughout the day should I test the level? How much bleach vs. ppms lost should I add? Will my other numbers fluctuate because of this process?

Any help for this ignoramous would be greatly appreciated!

[Poconos]

As you found out the CYA test is very subjective. I usually use a white fluorescent desk lamp to illuminate a white piece of paper, look through the column of liquid in the tube. Add solution until the black dot just disappears. This usually agrees pretty close with doing it in direct sunlight but is more consistant. If it is 50 that's a good number. I'd ignore the TA for now and test that later after you bring the FC down to maintenance level after you've gotten the CC down to zero. You're CA is low enough so keep using the cal-hypo.
Al

[labdi01]

So keep using cal hypo until I maintain a 15 overnight and CYA is 0?

How often during the day should I be testing/adding - and do you have rough dosage/ppm lost?

Thank you so much for your time and advice.

[AnnaK]

What kind of pool do you have and how many gallons?

If your Taylor results are correct you do seem to have a nascent algae bloom happening. That would be the most obvious reason for the high CC. How does your water look?

In a non-SWCG pool with 50 ppm CYA your minimum FC should be 4, target 6, shock 20. This means you should add enough bleach for your volume of water to reach and stay at 20 ppm FC until your overnight FC loss is 1 ppm or less. The Pool Calculator (http://www.poolcalculator.com) can help you figure out how much bleach you'll need to add.

With which of the color tests did you have a problem?

The FC test is a color/no color test process: you add the DPD powder to your sample, which will turn pink, then add the FAS reagent until the color clears completely. To test CC you add 5 drops of reagent to the sample you've just tested for FC. If it goes pink, you add a second reagent dropwise until it becomes colorless again.

The pH test does require color comparison which can be tricky depending on your light source. It's best done in indirect light (not bright sun) while holding the comparator tube against a white background. Your pH of 7.2 is a smidgen low. If it were my pool I would add some borax or washing soda to bring it to 7.5

The TA test titrates a treated sample toward a color change. You'll go from a rich green to a grey and move toward red. It's "red" when the red doesn't change with the addition of another drop—you'll know it when you see it. You record the last drop which produced a color change. In reality, whether you counted 7 drops or 8 drops is not all that critical. My pool, for instance, is just as happy with TA at 70 as it is with TA at 100.

Can't address the calcium test since I don't do it with my vinyl pool.

I would run the CYA test again because the difference is significant and the issue could be critical. If it's 50, you're on the upper end of the scale and need to stop using products which contain CYA, such as stabilized chlorine pucks or granules. If it's 100 we need to talk about ways to reduce that concentration.

[labdi01]

Hi Anna -

Wow - great info.

I suppose I should have given pool stats to start - I'm sorry about that.

I have a 24' AG (13.5+K gals) with a vinyl liner. I utilize a sand filter with DE in it (in addition to sand, not instead of).

The water is clear with no color whatsoever (other than staining on the liner from iron issue we started with).

The tests that had the color variations were TA and CA. Red vs. Magenta and indigo/purple vs. blue. More drops did not change it.

I did CYA twice here today the first was 40 (couldn't see dot at all); second was 50 (could see dot if you really tried).

I haven't used pucks in 3 days. I used cal hypo today to shock (pool store said I had 5 ppm iron - so I shocked to shake them out of hiding in order to filter them out). Prior to that was bleach, while we filtered iron (homemade filter and DE - worked magically).

[AnnaK]

Thanks for the pool stats. If you have the ability to create a signature block (via the UserCP in the left corner of the forum menu bar) it's always helpful to put pool specs in it. That way we won't have to ask all the time. Me, I have a very short memory.

You can skip the CA tests. You don't need to worry about CA in a vinyl pool unless your fill water is very hard. But, since you reported CA=50, it isn't, so you're good without testing for that.

Your CYA test results confuse me. At 40 you couldn't see the dot but at 50 you could, a little? It ought to be the other way around. Next time you test, start the CYA process first and be as precise with your sample size as you can be. Pour the sample in, add the reagent, shake for 30 seconds. Let it sit 3 minutes, shake it up real good again, then do the spot test. The melamine takes a while to react with all the CYA to produce the cloudiness.

On the TA test, when you get magenta you're almost there. With TA=60 you'd be just one drop away from red. Don't count the drops that produced no further color change, and be sure you swirl between each drop until you get the hang of testing. I'll admit to not swirling until after the 4th drop, bad bad BAD! But then again, I know pretty much what my water chemistry is and so I tend to get a little lackadaisical.

Homemade filter? Tell! Or have you posted about that already?

[labdi01]

You're so funny!

About the CYA test, the more water you pour into the comparison vial, the lower your CYA is. So, at 40 I saw no dot - at 50 I could make it out if my life depended on it.

I didn't let it sit 3 mins. Just followed directions and shook for 30 seconds. I'll do another CYA with the 3 min-wait. Lordy I hope it's not 100! We have iron like the Navy! Would hate to battle THAT again!

With TA - I added 3 more drops - no change. I'll add more next time (too dark outside now).

Just did new FC/CC (flashlight). FC=15.5/CC=4 (added another # 52% cal hypo - will check before bed in 1 hr - is that sufficient? one hour after adding)

Homemade iron filter is described under Metals forum from "New Pool Owner with High Iron Manually Removing Iron" - but I'll save you the trouble of reading it all.

Opened pool, previous owner left 1.5' of water, we filled with well - it's FREE (knowing there was iron - but not knowing it would muck up a pool). Hired someone to come show us how to open/operate a pool. She shocked. Swimming pool-turned-cesspool. Didn't know about Pool Forum. Went to Pool store. Bought $140 in sequestrants. Got pool clear with green tinge (residual iron). Followed advice on PF and sanitized with 6 gals of bleach. Opaque brown again. Ready to tear it down (seriously)!!!!!! Made a homemade filter out of FreshStep cat litter bucket with lid. Drilled holes all over bucket (if you use this idea, don't drill holes in bottom like we did). Get a sump pump. Take a short section of hose (12-16") with an end that will fit snugly on the output of the pump (we used a section of our pool vac. The hose comes in short sections). Fill your bucket with quilt batting. I got it from Walmart in the craft section. It is packaged similarly to your Sunday paper on a rainy day - and looks similar, where it's rolled. When you open the package, take the batting out and unravel it It spreads out like a queen-sized blanket. Bunch it up and 'swirl' it around your bucket. Then make a well in the center. Make a hole in the lid of your cat litter bucket (we cut an X and pushed down the sides). Now force the other end of the hose that's on your sump pump into the lid of the bucket. Put the lid back on the bucket (make sure it's tight). Lower both into the pool - turn the pump on and let it run for at least 12 hours (no matter how brown your water is). It captures all particulate iron (even when your pool looks clear, it continues to collect iron). We had to run it for 72 hours. Hosed down the batting every 12 hrs and backwashed the sand filter when required (when output was weak). We hung the batting over the side of the deck to clean Start cleaning at the top of the batting, and you can see the iron run through the batting, easily out the bottom. It's crazy! Someone else read my post and used it and rallied for it as well. SO much easier than sequestrants - they're NOT cheap! $20/quart and I needed 6 to start, not to mention every time I have to fill or shock. No thanks.

[polyvue]

With TA - I added 3 more drops - no change. I'll add more next time (too dark outside now).

I responded to your concerns about CH and TA end-point colors in the following thread

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=9765&page=2

Magenta may indeed be the appropriate end-point for the TA test.

[labdi01]

Thank you all so much for the fabulous, detailed information.

Anna - I did the CYA test again this am. I filled the bottle with water and solution, shook it for 30 secs and set it aside. Then, unfortunately, I was pulled away and the solution sat for 13 minutes. ugh. I did the test anyway - and now CYA reads 30. Think that's reliable after 13 mins?

On the FC/CC front, the Pool Calc you lead me to (thank you so much - that thing is COOL) suggested I add another # of cal hypo last night (so I did) - fell asleep before I could test levels after that application. This am, FC was 19.5 (vs 15.5 prior to cal hypo last night) and CC is 3.5 (vs 4.5 last night). Hopefully, that's a sign toward progress, but I know how these numbers can fluctuate. Thankfully, today is going to be somewhat cloudy, so I'll check again around Noon and then again at dinner, then just before bed.

[AnnaK]

Dianna wrote:
About the CYA test, the more water you pour into the comparison vial, the lower your CYA is. So, at 40 I saw no dot - at 50 I could make it out if my life depended on it.


Yes, of course! You're right. I screwed up. Can I please use the excuse of a pulled wisdom tooth and Darvocet to explain my confusion and error?


I did the test anyway - and now CYA reads 30. Think that's reliable after 13 mins?


IMO, yes. If I understand the chemistry of the CYA test correctly the suspension is not going to go clear in time. Just make sure you shake it before pouring it into the test tube.


With TA - I added 3 more drops - no change. I'll add more next time (too dark outside now).


Once there is no change, you're done. Adding more drops won't produce a change. Polyvue's reference to magenta is good. I see the endpoint as red but in practical terms it doesn't matter. The endpoint is when you cannot produce any further color changes with the addition of more reagent.

Keep testing and keep adding enough chlorine to maintain the shock level; eventually your CCs will disappear.

That batting filter is very creative!

[labdi01]

Wisdom teeth - ick! You can blame anything and everything on that! I'm so sorry you have to endure that experience. Me - I have no excuse! Just a dim-lit dim-wit. At least all this pool stuff is making me feel that way!

Thank you for bearing with my ignorance. I really appreciate it. As you know, pool stores are a crap-shoot.

Think testing 3-4x a day is OK - should I test more on a sunny day (today is overcast)?

Thank you again for your help - it is very much appreciated!

[labdi01]

Update: Tested FC and CC again (4 hours after initial test this am). Good news. FC up to 22 and CC down to (barely) 1.5 - pH holding strong at 7.2 - surprisingly with all that FC.

Questions: Let's say hypothetically, my CC gets down to 0 today, what do I do next? Just let the CL levels come down on their own? Should I do a maintenance dose of polyquat 60 and if so, when (now, or when CL is down)? And should I do that weekly? Once all numbers are in check, how often should I be testing/balancing my pool in 'maintenance mode'? How do I know I need to shock (I know after considerable rains)? Whenever CC is above .5?

[Watermom]

Once you go with losing no more than 1ppm of chlorine overnight and have no CC, I think I would maintain the high cl level for one additional day for insurance. Then, if all is still good, let it drift down.

It won't hurt to do a maintenance dose of polyquat once you are past this, but remember it will make your cl plummet. That is ok, but just be aware and be ready to add some bleach.

Once you are in maintenance mode, you need to test at least once a day. You shock when you have any CC above 0.5 and maybe after a heavy rain that may put a lot of organic debris in your pool or after an exceptionally heavy swimmer load.

[labdi01]

Thanks Watermom!

I just tested FC/CC again. My FC went down to 16 - but my CC is 0. I'll add more CL and get it back up to 20.

My CYA was still right around 30, so I put my CYA sock back in (there's maybe a 1/2 pound left in it). Was that wise? Is 50 the goal I'm reaching for with CYA?

(can kids swim while we're doing this?)

[labdi01]

Not sure what's going on. For about 8 or so hours yesterday, I got my CC to 0 and held on pretty-well to my FC levels around 22. It was overcast most of the day.

Suddenly, mid-day my FC dropped (by 8 ppms - twice) and my CC went back up (to 1.5). FC held at 25 overnight - but so didn't CC at 1.5.

I also did a polyquat treatment yesterday evening. The only other thing I did before the change, was brush part of the pool.

Question is - FC and CC are holding strong. Should I up the shock level?

[AnnaK]

Sure, the kids can swim while the CYA is in the sock, just don't let them go play with it and squish it around.

The recommendation in a non-SWCG pool is for CYA to be between 30 and 50.

Good job getting that CC down!

[Watermom]

Polyquat 60% will cause your cl to plummet. Shock it back up. You know the drill.

[labdi01]

CL didn't plummet, though - weird. Because CC is holding tight (as is CL), should I take shock level above 25 (where it's holding now)

[aylad]

If your CYa is still 50, I wouldn't take it above 25. Since this thread has gotten pretty long, can you please post a new, current set of numbers for us?

Janet

[labdi01]

Thanks for responding Aylad.

Just ran new tests:

FC - 19.5
CC - 1
pH - 7.2
TA - 130

[aylad]

Keep it at 20 for another day and see if you can knock out the rest of that CC. What is your current CYA?

Janet

[labdi01]

Hi Janet.

CYA is 50 - sorry forgot to post

[aylad]

yep, keep it at 20, no higher than 25 til the CC is burned out.

Janet

[AnnaK]

How is the pool, Dianna?

[labdi01]

Hi Anna - thanks for checking.

Unfortunately, I ran out of Chlorine reagent and won't have any for probably close to a week. Last I checked (yesterday morning), I still had 1 ppm combined chlorine. I'm operating in the dark, right now. I know my free chlorine was well above 7 ppm this am, because I ran out of reagent after 14 drops - but still had a very pink sample.

The closest pool store (30 mins away) only does CL and TC - and the last time they did it - it was way off from my Taylor test, so I"m not even going to bother.

My pH was 7.4 and my CYA was down to 35. My calcium was about 240 yesterday, so I switched to bleach (was using cal hypo because my calcium was down around 50 - I know it doesn't really matter in a vinyl pool - but figured I'd kill 2 birds with one stone).

I added about a half-gallon of 5.25% bleach this am, presuming my CL was down around 15-17 and may still have that 1 ppm cc.

I hate not knowing what's going on in there! ;oP

Is it OK for my kids to swim in it, you think?

[AnnaK]

Using cal-hypo in a vinyl pool makes very little sense. Your calcium level at 50 was just fine; at 240 it's total overkill (those poor birds, waste of a stone :) ) You could easily wind up with calcium scale along the water line and, worse, cloudy water and that could be a bear to get rid of.

It's curious that your CYA is dropping. If I remember correctly you had tested it at 50 ppm at one time. Do you have a lot of splash-out which requires refilling? That might account for the dilution. Or maybe your testing procedures are getting better.

I completely sympathize with the longish drive to the pool store. The Leslie's nearest to me is about 30 minutes away. They do carry Taylor reagents and I've bought refills there in a pinch. For the most part I stock up by shopping online at Amato Industries (http://www.amatoind.com/taylor-testing-reagents-c-30_35.html). There are, of course, many other online sources for Taylor refills.

You can work "blind" for a few days, especially since your pH looks good. Be aware though that the accuracy of pH measurements decreases at FC concentrations above 10 ppm.

According to the Pool Calculator (http://www.poolcalculator.com) you need to add 160 oz of 5.25% bleach to raise the FC from 15 to 20 or from 10 to 15. That 1/2 gallon you poured in will keep chlorine in the water but not at the levels needed to knock out the CC you're fighting.

Stock up on your DPD and FAS test reagents and make it a point not to run out again. Oh, and stock up on bleach and never mind the cal-hypo. We want to get you swimming in a clear, clean and sparkling pool, not be out there killing birds :)

[labdi01]

Hi Anna.

Someone mentioned to me in an earlier post to keep using cal-hypo - so I did. I've since switched to bleach. Hopefully, I don't get scaling!!! I don't need anymore headaches!

I was testing around 50 for CYA. I'm not sure why it's dropping either. No one's been in the pool at all until today (hoped it was OK), so it's not splash-out. I'll test what I can again and repost.

I ordered lots more reagents today!

I have 4 gals of bleach on hand. I'll pour more in when the boys get out.

[Watermom]

I skimmed back through this thread and Al did say early in the thread to use cal-hypo. But, I don't think he was suggesting that cal-hypo SHOULD be used but rather that your CH reading was low enough that you COULD use it. I'd stick with bleach. No chance of the bleach clouding the water up like cal-hypo might.

[labdi01]

Switched back to bleach on Sunday! I'm just blindly adding it right now, until I get more reagent (it's on its way).

But I did finally swim in it last night for the first time.

[labdi01]

Finally got my reagents today. I was nervous about what might be going on in there, while I couldn't spy.

My chlorine is really high (42.5)!!! I haven't added any bleach since Monday - 1.5 gals. The rest of my numbers look OK

pH - 7.2
CYA - 35
CC - 0

So I finally got rid of the CC - but what can I do about the high chlorine, other than leave it and hope for a sunny day? I haven't been using pucks, either.

[Watermom]

I bet you got rid of your CC if your cl really is 42.5!!!! You might want to double check that test again. There really isn't anything you can do to lower cl. Lots of sunny days will drop it.

[labdi01]

I hope my reagent isn't bad - I just got it today (the CL reagent was what I had to order). I'll use the other container of 0871 that I got (I ordered 2). I'll repost as soon as I retest.

Yeah, I'm thinking a FC level of 42.5 will kill just about anything!!! But CC is down to 0 :oP

[labdi01]

Well, I just tested the water again (5 hrs since last test). I used the second bottle of 0871 I just received today.

NOW my FC is 41 and CC is 1 - - how is that even possible?

What to do now...

I ordered the reagents from The Pool Source - but it IS Taylor brand.

Should I presume at this point that the reagent is bad? Is it possible to go from just under 20 ppm FC to 41+ w/ 2 gals of 5.25% bleach? And if so, is it possible it held for over 48 hours?

I'm no mathemagician - but that just doesn't add-up to me!

[Watermom]

2 gallons of 5.25% bleach in a pool your size (12,500 - 13.000 gallons) would raise your cl by approximately 8ppm.

[labdi01]

The pool is 24' round AG. So, we're 13.5+K gals.

This doesn't make sense. What's your initial instinct?

I put 1/2 gal in on Monday am. We had 6 people in the pool for several hours Monday afternoon. That evening, I put 1.5 gals in. I haven't put any more in since. We had 3 more kids on Tuesday.

We back washed, added DE and vacuumed to waste this am prior to receiving reagents.

And then to get a CC chlorine reading tonight? Is it me - or does this sound wonky?

[chem geek]

Since it sounds like you are using the FAS-DPD chlorine test, I assume that if you are using a 25 ml sample size that you are multiplying the number of drop by 0.2 (or dividing the number of drops by 5) to get the FC reading. If you are using a 10 ml sample size, then you multiply by 0.5 (or divide by 2).

Since you reported 42.5 it sounds like you are using a 10 ml sample size and it took 83 drops to go from pink to clear, is that right? If so, then that's a high level of chlorine, but one day in sunlight should bring that down to the 20-30 range given your current CYA level. I think that will happen faster than it will take you to get some chlorine neutralizer which would be your other alternative.

[labdi01]

Hi Chem Geek

Thanks for checking in!

You're correct - I am using the FAS-DPD test system as you described (using the 10 ml mark and dividing by 2).

The math to get there just doesn't seem to be adding up to me (amt of bleach/bleach strength vs time lapse, etc). That's why I suspected weakened reagent - but don't know the science behind this particular reagent. Again, no mathemagician, like you. :oD

Is it safe for my kids to swim in? And how in the WORLD could I have a CC level? :oP

[Watermom]

If it really is that high, then I wouldn't let my kids in the pool.

[labdi01]

K. No one in the pool!

Tomorrow is going to be sunny and hot! (should I be keeping my filter on 24/7? I have been.

Don't you know, my daughter is feeling ill after swimming on Monday. Shoot! What did I do?

She woke up with a headache on Tue and "it hurt to try to GO..." She swam again on Tue and today...Montezuma's revenge AND a headache. Coincidence or should I take her to her pedi?

No one else that was in the pool appears to be ill. YET.

Some people shouldn't be allowed to have pools!

[chem geek]

If you have access to an inexpensive OTO chlorine test, then with the chlorine as high as you seem to be measuring, it will be well past yellow and even orange and probably red. Or, gulp, you can take it to a pool store to be measured, assuming they know about diluting the water to avoid bleaching out any DPD chlorine test they may use.

[labdi01]

I actually do have the cheap-o drop-test kit I picked up before opening the pool. I tried that chlorine test, and the test sample turned dark orange (and the comparator colors were shades of yellow). I don't trust the pool store that's closest to me (30 mins away). The day I received my Taylor test, they showed I had a FC of 3 and a TC of 3 and Taylor "told" me 3 hrs later that I had a FC of 15.5 and a CC of 4.5.

Today is supposed to be sunny most of the day - I'm hoping for a decent drop.

I'm a little leary of the rest of my test results, because I'm understanding that with a chlorine level this high, some test results will be unreliable.

And - to add to the issues that exist, it appears my sand filter is depositing sand into the pool.

[CarlD]

You are making it tougher on your self than you need to.

Fill the tube to the 10 ml line with pool water. Add your FAS-DPD powder--one scoop is enough if it turns a rich pink.

As I add each drop I swirl and count as follows:
".5, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0,.....15.5, 16.0" as need be.

I don't count the drops ("16.0" would be 32 drops), I count what the FC level is when it turns clear. No math, no dividing, no calculating. I just have to be able to add by .5.

Then, when I run the CC test, I count the same way, usually...".5" and I'm done.

It's possible your daughter has picked up a dose of Noro-Virus (what used to be called stomach flu till it hit the cruise ships and got the longer name "Norwalk Virus").
Getting her to a doctor would be wise.

[labdi01]

Good Morning, CarlD!

I'm going to start doing that (counting by .5). Me being me, I always have to do things the hard way! Not only do I count actual drops - I recheck my math using a calculator, cuz I don't trust myself!

I didn't even consider the pool when my daughter got ill, until Watermom (I think) advised not letting the kids in - then I panicked. But, I tend to overreact - in case you hadn't noticed yet! Catholic and a Mom - the guilt abounds!!

Thank you all so much for your wonderful advice, guidance, insight and patience!! You've all been this poor pool's saving grace! I've learned so much from all of you and I can't thank you enough for all your fantabulous help!

The pool would probably have been dismantled by now, had I not found this site.