Hopefully...minor clarity issue

[buki5]

New to having a pool. Started out surprisingly well now have cloudy water. Sorry for the long post....trying to include all the right details.

Through last Sunday the water has been clear, a little "dirty" as I was having pump problems but looked rather good. The pump has been running 24/7 for the last 7 days.

Tonight when I opened the pool it was cloudy. Still clear enough that I could see the water outlet at the bottom but it is definitely cloudy.

Here's the background:

16x32 vinyl inground
Hayward DE filter
1hp super pump (New)
RayPak heater at 82deg f
Pentair 300 Chlorinator with Tri pucks. (has been set to off until tonight...now on 2.5 (0-5 scale)
Power vinyl cover (covered anytime pool is not being used)
Taylor K-2005 (Will get 2006 or the proper Chlorine test when I get a chance)

Water tests (consistent from 5/30-6/6)

FC-5
TC-5
CC-0

PH-7.3
TA-190
CH 130
Temp-82deg

CYA-150+ (Have been reading here and discussing with Pool store, I understand this is quite high)

Last Sunday 6/6 and over the last week the pool got a pretty decent workout including our dog...I added 2lbs of Potassium Monopersulfate-44.7% to Shock.


This evening I opened the pool and Chlorine had dropped to maybe .5 Here are the readings

FC-.5
TC-.5
CC-0
PH-7.3
TA-190
CH-150
Temp-82deg

Tonight I've added approximately

1 lb of 45% cal-hypo
16oz of algeacide (di-methyl benzyl ammonium chloride-9.4%, Methyl ben amm-chl .04%)

Have "cycled" the DE filter about 4 times since adding the cal-hypo. (gauge goes from 18 to 22 within 5 minutes each time. Last time only to 21) About 14 seconds after cycling a 3-5 second jet of cloudy water comes from the near jet...haven't watched the far jet.

Any suggestions or changes recommended?

Thanks. This is a great resource.

[aylad]

If it were my pool, I would drain about 1/2 the water and refill to get that CYA down. With it that high, your shock level is 25+ ppm of chlorine, and even when you get it clear, you have to maintain 8-15 ppm of Cl just to keep the algae blooms at bay. Unless you drop the CYA level to something more manageable, I don't know how you'll be able to keep the pool clear, let alone clean, all summer. I'm sure that the cloudiness is an impending algae bloom. After you added the cal-hypo, how high did your Chlorine level go? And are you able to sustain that? Did you add it through the skimmer, which would explain the cloudy water coming from the jet, or did you broadcast it into the pool?

Also, the only algaecide that we recommend on this forum is polyquat 60, and it's usually better as an algae preventative than it is in killing an active algae bloom.

Welcome to the forum....

Janet

[Watermom]

Let me also add my welcome to you and glad to have you on the forum.

Seems like you have been adding a lot of things to try and help clear your pool. Sometimes (actually more like oftentimes) the more you add, the worse you make it. I would go with Janet's advice above and do a partial drain and refill and then shock your pool.

Don't use any more trichlor pucks. They are contributing to your cya problem. Even if you drain half of your water, your cya level is still gonna be pretty high at 75 but much more manageable. But, even at that level, you still don't want to use any more trichlor. (No dichlor shock powder, either.)

Cal-hypo is known for causing cloudy water problems. I'd probably just stick with liquid chlorine in this pool; either plain bleach or pool store liquid chlorine as they won't contribute to cloudy water problems.

I would also work on lowering the alk. You can see how to do this in the sticky at the top of the alkalinity forum called "How to Lower your Alk."

One last question --- why the Potassium Monopersulfate? More info about that can be found in the thread at this link. (Note post #2 within that thread.)

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=3217

Again, welcome. Keep us posted how it is going and let us know if you have further questions!

[buki5]

Thanks for the quick responses.

Here is some follow-up.

Aylad
Considering the water drain and fill this weekend.

1) Can't say how high CL went didn't run a diluted test last night. Do know it is at 5ppm this AM
(DPD test- Ran diluted and it came out at 5 when adjusted)

2) Broadcast the Cal-Hypo. Also, cycled the filter this AM and got the 3-5 seconds of cloudy water from both jets.

Watermom

1) Hasn't seemed like I've had to do much. I've only added what I've noted since opening the pool at the end of May...but I'm new to this so I don't have any perspective.

2) The Pot Mon was here and marked algeacide...I don't know any better :)

Today's plan
1) Add another 1lb of cal-hypo this morning then measure tonight to see where it is.
2) Pick up liquid Chlorine.

[CarlD]

I've heard about the Potassium Monpersulfate...it's not going to help you. Neither is ammonia based algaecide.

You are OK using the Cal-hypo but only OK. As you were told, without diluting the CYA down to a manageable level you won't get your pool clear unless you reach and hold an FC level of 25ppm and thereafter have to maintain it between 8 and 15. Until you get your FC to the appropriate shock level for the amount of CYA, you are fighting a losing battle.

The Cal-Hypo may make your water cloudy but it will be a milky cloudy as opposed to a green cloudy--and it's better than algae.

But do not despair! The fix is not complicated, just takes patience and persistence. You can read up on the same advice we are giving you in the Algae section here at PF. It actually works and it's not magic or mystical.

It's simple. You have to kill the algae and keep making sure it and its capability of starting up again is dead. You do that with lots of chlorine maintained at a continuous high level so the algae cannot "regroup". There is no magic cure, magic bullet or "special" trick. Just lots of chlorine.

[aylad]

Just a quick note--brush your pool well to make sure that you don't have undissolved cal-hypo sitting on your liner, which will fade it. Cal-hypo is notorious for not dissolving well, and you don't want a bunch of it sitting on your pool floor. You might want to consider pre-dissolving it in a bucket of water and pouring it slowly into the return stream to help it dissipate better and to make sure you don't have clumps left.

Janet

[buki5]

Ok, before work added Cal-hypo to about 15ppm. Tonight I got home rechecked then added 3 gal 6% Bleach. Measuring around 25ppm (DPD test diluted and adjusted). I did flush my DE filter tonight and added 5lbs DE back in also cleaned out skimmers and checked pump basked (looks good since adding skimmer socks). Pressure holding steady at around 18 rather than quickly climbing to 23.

Now if I recall it's time for PPP. Will do another full round of tests later and monitor clarity and add bleach as needed. Also, I turned the eyes as straight up as I can. Will leave them that way while monitoring TA.

Two questions. Have I missed anything, and water looks good other than cloudy. With the high chlorine when can everyone go swimming?

[aylad]

I wouldn't swim unless the Cl is under 10, and even then I'd wear an old suit, just in case of fading.....Keep at it, filter until no longer cloudy, hold chlorine at shock level until you don't lose any overnight!!

Janet

[buki5]

Ran through a full set of tests, checked filter and pressure is slowly climbing, up to 20 now, brushed the floor and walls. Not doing anything else till morning, then likely only chlorine. Keeping pool open tonight. I think that I will close it tomorrow as we're expecting a bright sunny day.?

Scores:
FC-25
TC-25
CC-0
PH-7.4
TA-200
CH-130



Only this forum may understand this next piece. Laid down at the skimmer with a flashlight and just watched for a bit...actually kind of relaxing...except for the crud in the water.

Noticed a powdery like substance on the water surface in the skimmer. First thought was pollen but with the cover pretty much always on there shouldn't be all that much. Next thought is that the chlorine is working and it is the algae coming out...? Also notice along the skimmer wall a "build up" line of this stuff...a very slight yellow color with possibly hint of green (green is very faint, could be caused by lighting).


One other question. When might I get out of purgatory and be able to post without getting approval? :)

[buki5]

This morning Update.

Tested CL measured +/-25. Looks like its held so far.

Water was "lightly" coming out of returns so checked filter, up to 25 from 20. Recharged and dropped to 18 and the return water was back up to normal velocity.

With lighting changes couldn't tell if the water was clearer. Can easily see bottom of shallow end but not deep end (about the same as lst night).

This morning, planning on closing cover and waiting. Will check filter and Chlorine when I get home this evening.

Home stretch?

[Watermom]

You probably shouldn't close the cover with cl level that high. The fumes may damage your cover.

Hope you are in the home stretch. Keep an eye on your filter pressure, backwash as needed. You might want to try using some skimmer socks.

I assume you are now just using bleach and no more cal-hypo?

[buki5]

Home for lunch opened pool, checked chlorine holding around 25. Filter holding at 19. Water seems to be clearing though can't see the return at the bottom...again lighting makes it hard to tell.

[buki5]

Couple more things.
Have had skimmer socks on for a week or so now. Really like them. Also, just saw the bottom. Barely, but it's there.

I haven't added anything since the 3 gal of bleach but the plan is yes to continue with bleach. I have a little Cal-hypo left so may try to use it up at some point.

[buki5]

Water is clearing, can see the bottom even after sweeping. However, the best I can describe it the water looks "thick".

Was out of town this evening so wife tested and chlorine had dropped. added 1.5 gal of 6%. Chlorine back up. pressure in filter slightly above 20.

At this point I think I'm going to go easy on additional chlorine and let it fall to around 10 then try to maintain and watch the water. Let me know if you have any additional thoughts. Will also clean the socks tomorrow.

[buki5]

This morning's update

Skimmer socks cleaned
Filter pressure 21
Vacuumed the floor and walls
Pool open
Raining

Numbers
FC-25
TC-25
CC-0
Ph-7.4
TA-210
CH-140

Numbers seem to be climbing a little? Why?

Questions
1) Best way to stay ahead of Chlorine draw?
2) How best to clean crud from within the skimmer walls (they're black, sticky and oily).
3) How best to go about the various adjustments for my numbers:
a) Lower TA by about half
b) Lower CYA by about half
c) Lower Chlorine by a little over half
I've read the forum and understand the aeration/low ph process for TA, the drain and fill for CYA, seems to be keep the pool open for Cl. However, looking for a systematic process to work through all these without sending everything amuck....

[aylad]

If you're going to drain and refill to lower the CYA, do that first--it does not do much good to adjust all your other numbers to where you want them, and then mess them all up again when you refill. Do your draining first, then we can go from there to adjust the other stuff.

The sun and refilling will take care of lowering the chlorine, you don't have to do anything for that.

There are vinyl cleaners you can use for the skimmer walls--some people have had success with Magic Erasers, but I've just used a kitchen pot scrubber with a baking soda/water paste and it works fine for me.

And the best way to stay ahead of the chlorine draw is to add most of your chlorine at night--that way it spends all night working on the stuff in the water, and hopefully will reduce the chlorine load during the day.

Janet

[buki5]

Thank you all again for the help. Water is looking great! Tested with some additional help on the forum and CL is down to 10. keeping the pool open tomorrow to see how much it drops. Targeting a maintenance level of 8-10ppm due to the high CYA (well over 100) until I drain and fill. Would like to get some swim time in first.

[Watermom]

You are very welcome, Brian. Let us know if we can help again! Go swim and have fun!

[buki5]

Correction to my last post on the test readings.

Question at the bottom...
Tested CL tonight and I get 4.5, down from last nights 11. Here are all of the numbers.

FC- 4.5
CC- 0
TC- 4.5
PH- 7.4
TA- 190
CH- 140
CYA-150+

Sunny hot day, cover off. No swimmers, the dog did make it in and right out a couple of times but no duration of time in the water (He's also primarily an indoor dog).

As a reminder the numbers above have been pretty steady outside of the Chlorine. Last night CL measured 11

Question?
Does this drop in Chlorine, 6.5 points, seem reasonable? I tested once FAS-DPD then twice at varying multiples using DPD and the number seems correct.

If so, my plan is to add 2.5 gal of 6% bleach to get it back to a little over 10ppm.

Suggestions?

[Watermom]

Yes, on a really hot sunny day, you can easily lose that much chlorine. CYA of 150+? Wow. So, you decided not to do a partial drain but just live with it? You're gonna have a hard time keeping algae at bay, I'm afraid. Just look at today's levels. You're down to 4.5. Dropping that low is an invitation to algae. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm afraid you're gonna have a tough summer keeping cl levels up high enough to avoid an algae bloom. I think you better plan on taking the cl level up to 15 tonight instead of just 10 so maybe by evening tomorrow, you won't have dropped below 8.

[buki5]

Thanks Watermom.

One difference from today to tomorrow is that I will cover the pool (power cover). I just did a calc. and I show that adding 2.84 gal (2 bottles) would take me up to a little over 11.....

I can go more but want to be able to use the pool tomorrow (or any day for that matter) and am concerned about everyone swimming with too high a chlorine level. My wife wants me to talk to the "Experts"....I've been holding her at bay. Of course I don't want the algae to return either.

As for the CYA. I'll do a drain but want to get a few days in first. I do have a nice stockpile of bleach :) .

[Watermom]

I deleted your other post with the incorrect numbers. BTW -- when you realize soon after you make a post that you need to correct something, instead of posting another post, you can go in and EDIT it. Just click on the blue edit button in the lower right corner of the post. There is a time frame where you can do this, but I can't remember how long it is.

[buki5]

So, I think my basic question is what is my chlorine level range where everyone is able to swim and Algae is being held off (water clear)?

8-10 or 8-something higher? I believe I've seen on here at my CYA levels I need to stay at 8 or above to keep algae at bay? But how high is still safe for swimming?

[Watermom]

Take a look at this version of the "best Guess CYA chart." You must maintain cl between 8-15 all the time with your cya level. Swimming in a higher chlorine level pool is less of an issue if the cya is also high. I don't think there is a magical "cut-off" number. But, I'd probably wear an old swimsuit.

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/faq.php?faq=pool_faq#faq_bg_chlorine

[buki5]

Perfect. Thanks. I've referred to the Best guess table a number of times. So, I think I can do that. And yes will likely drain sooner rather than later....then I get to start the chemistry all over again.

[Watermom]

then I get to start the chemistry all over again.
We'll be in your back pocket helping then, too! Have fun swimming this weekend!

[chem geek]

Losing more than 50% of the FC in a day with a very high CYA level means you've got more than just loss from sunlight. You could check the overnight chlorine loss, but I suspect you've got nascent algae growth even if it isn't visible -- again, if the CYA reading is truly as high as reported.

Usually even in very hot sunny weather the chlorine loss will be around 15% in a day when the CYA is 100 ppm or so. At 60-80 ppm it may be around 20-25% FC drop while at 40-50 ppm it may be up to 50% and at 20-30 ppm it could be up to 60%. Higher CYA levels have lower chlorine loss rates even when proportionately keeping the FC higher. It may have to do with some direct CYA shielding effect protecting lower depths from sunlight.

[buki5]

Thanks again all.

I've been testing CL levels at least 2 times a day to understand what is happening. The run down of the last 20 hours or so is this. Weather is Sunny and warm.

Last night added the extra bleach suggested by Watermom. I was at 11.05 plus another bottle which should have taken me to around 14.5. Checked this morning before work (left pool open overnight) and measured around 14. Covered the pool for the day, came home and measured again (about 11 hours) and got a 12.5. Kids swam, dog swam, I swam (2.5 hours passed, I checked CL again and measured 8.5. Added 2.84 gal 6% and leaving open overnight. Will measure before I go to bed later and expect a 14.5 to 15 reading. Will check again in the morning. My money says it will be in range of 13 to 13.5 then when I get home am expecting around 11.

Will keep you posted.

[Watermom]

Sounds like you are getting control of this pool! I still think, if it were me, that I would do a partial drain and refill, but glad you are getting to swim some. After all, that is what having a pool is all about! Have a great weekend!

[buki5]

Couple more things...
Do I understand correctly that the belief of the BBB method is that you only need to shock if you are having or starting an algae or known pathogen problem? I'm referring to the PS statement of shocking weekly?

Also, RE: CYA testing I've tested using the add 7oz water then add 7oz regent shake like hell then drop until you can't see the black dot enough to go through a little over 2 bottles (.75oz) of regent. Every single time I don't get half way to the 100 mark before I can't see the dot. basically the fluid drops out almost white. The first couple of times I thought for sure I was doing something wrong but in reading I haven't seen anything to have me do any different and my tests have been consistent.

For background this is a pool with a power cover and the Pentair 300 3" tab chlorinator adn when I moved in the valve on the Pentair was set at the max setting. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the water is years old and the prior owners were struggling to keep the water clear. Based on what I'm seeing on here Regarding the tabs I'm not real surprised...now. (although I was the first few times).

Brian

[aylad]

As far as shocking goes, there is no need to shock weekly just on principle--you need to shock the water if 1) it's cloudy, 2) you have a CC of more than 0.5, or 3)you start seeing indications of impending algae bloom. There are some people who never shock the pools except when getting ready for closing--and then there are those who shock more frequently "just because".

It doesn't surprise me that your CYA is that high, if tabs are all the previous owners used with this pool. It doesn't matter that the water is "old", but lowering that CYA will definitely make the pool easier to manage! Can you imagine what nightmares the previous owners had trying to get/keep it clear?

Janet

[smileitsachoice]

I know this reply is a little late, but I just went through the same problem. I drained about 10k gallons out and got my cya down between 60-70. This was the best thing I could have done. Water is really easier to manage, and cheaper.

[buki5]

Update and pretty much all good news. Have been checking the water pretty much twice daily to monitor cl usage. Had a close call on the 1 36 or 48 hour period that I didn't check cl as it dropped to about 4 and looked like algae was getting ready to go two days before a pool event for one of my kids. Hopped up the cl and managed to get us through the night. Cleaned up and has been good since. Had a good weekend in the pool over the 4th.

Am now in the process of draining. down about 13 inches. I have a hose running onto a lounger to minimize mixing of water and my skimmers are turned off to pull water from the bottom drain.

Have been "bumping" the filter as well figure we can start it new at the same time. Goal is to leave about 4-6 inches in the shallow end and then turn the pump off for the refill. Going camping next weekend so this will give us some time to stabilize the chemicals and cl demand before everyone wants to hop in again.

BTW, have probably gone through 20 1.42 gal jugs of cl keeping it in the 8-12 ppm range. (remember my CYA is so high I can't really measure it).

Thanks for the help. Going to test my fill water shortly.

Cheers

Brian

[buki5]

Frustration...
Drained 10,000 gallons from the pool and refilled....(actually, somewhat more than this as I was filling at the surface while I was draining.

Pool tests this morning
FC-3
CC-0.5
TC-3.5
Ph-7.4
TA-120
CH-120
CYA-100+ (a few drops below the 100 line). Tested (poured mix back in bottle and retested...3 times...went outside and checked temps,skimmers, etc to kill time and re-rean the test)

After testing I added 3, 1.42 gal of 6%. Water is clear and fine. Need to vacuum the bottom otherwise it looks in good shape.

However, I still am running a huge CYA number and need to use chlorine by the truckload.

[Watermom]

I am sorry to hear of the frustration, but I understand. I'm sure your high cya is probably from years of somebody using trichlor tabs in this pool. There should be some kind of note on the label alerting people to the fact that if they use trichlor for a long time, they will have significant cya buildup. It would save people from being in the situation you are in. A lot of other people have the same issues. But, then they wouldn't sell as much of their product, would they? The almighty dollar.

I don't know if you just want to bite the bullet and do another partial drain and try and get that cya down more or if you just want to live with it. I think if it were me, I'd just go ahead and keep doing partial drains/refills until I got it to a more manageable level. A big pain in the butt, yes, and the cost of the water. But, then, it will be done and as long as you stick with chlorinating with bleach or liquid chlorine, you'll never be in this situation again.

[CarlD]

You need to get your FC up into the maintenance range of 8 to 15ppm with your CYA. Once it's there, you should have no trouble maintaining it in that range and not be using bleach or LC by the boat-load. In fact, your chlorine usage should go down substantially--but you MUST maintain the higher levels--aim for 10ppm. If you still are using so much then shock it all the way up to 25ppm (as per the "Best Guess" table) and that should kill whatever's eating your FC.

You CAN live with the higher CYA but you cannot do it with an FC below 8, minimum.

Hope this helps.

[buki5]

I'm going to continue my thread from last year (my first with a pool). Year 2 here we go.

This year getting ready to go. If you look through the notes for last year you will see super high CYA. I drained and filled for 3 days and about 8 hours this year guessing around 18000 gallons.

Took my first full set of numbers and am concerned about the TA level. Here you go.

FC 7
CC 0
TC 7
PH 7.6
TA 60 **
CH 110
CYA something <30
Temp 64 deg F

From the Balance scale in my K-2006 it seems I'm way negative on my balance. Should I be concerned? If so what are the steps to correctly adjust. I'm planning on burning off the CL (Targeting 4) and will bring my CYA up to around 35 and raise temp to around 82 deg.

Fill water is City Tap.

For reference I was burning through around 1 large 6% bottle a day last year. Chemicals will be almost free this year in comparison :).

[buki5]

Two consecutive posts. While I'm at it...RE: CYA.

Looks like if I want to raise my CYA level 5 ppm. It will take about 1 lb disolved in the pool.

18x36 9' deep end 3.5 ish shallow end rectangle.

When I did my CYA test it was full a little past the 30 marker and I think I could faintly see the dot at the bottom.

Everyone concur with adding the 1 lb of CYA. I'm skitish since I was way off the charts all of last year.

[Watermom]

In an 18K pool, each pound of CYA should increase the reading by about 7ppm. I think you can add 1 to 1-1/2 lbs to start with. Wait a week to make sure it is dissolved and then retest and then you can decide if you need to add more.

Regarding your alk, you can add some baking soda to bump it up some. Add a couple of lbs. at a time. Gradually increase your alk to somewhere between 80-110 or so.

[madwil]

I can understand your concerns on CYA, but anywhere in the 30-50 range should be much more manageable...
You can add the CYA in stages, add half, retest next week, then add the other half if still needed!
the alk boost will help over time, just don't overdo it...