Need Help!

[wxwmn02]

I first opened my pool and it looked like a pond because the tarp fell off. I immediately added shock, algaecide and brushed the bottom. It took about 4 days for the pool to start looking more like a pool, however, the water is still pretty cloudy. The chemicals seem to be at the right levels according to the pool store so I am at a loss as to what to do now.

I was thinking part of the problem was getting the leaves off the bottom, but I did finally manage to do that, however, I can see tiny pieces of dirt/leaves floating around along with something that appears fibrous in nature. I put in Clarifier 3 times hoping it would help with the suspended particles, but apparently it didn't.

Yesterday I added shock and some more algaecide hoping that would help, it didn't. Any suggestions on what to do next.

[Watermom]

Welcome to the forum. I think we can probably help you but a couple of things we will need first:
1. We need current water testing results taken with a drops-based kit (no test strips). It is best if you test your own water rather than relying on a pool store because most pool stores do not always give accurate readings. The kit we recommend is the Taylor K-2006 or 2006C.

2. Please tell us exactly what all you have put in your pool --- ingredients -- not just "shock."

3. Tell us what type and size (volume) your pool is.

4. Don't add any more algaecide or clarifier or anything else right now until you give us some readings to look at.

5. Run your pump 24/7 while you are trying to clear the water. Watch your filter pressure and backwash whenever the pressure rises 8-10 psi over clean filter pressure.

Repost with the needed info and somebody here can help you. Again, welcome!

[AnnaK]

Welcome to the Pool Forum!

It would help us to better advise you if we knew a few things about your pool and the water test results.

How many gallons? Vinyl/plaster/fiberglass? Type of filtration system?

From the pool store's test: FC, TC, Alk, pH, CH, CYA (stabilizer) ?

You need to get all the debris off the bottom. You can scoop up the larger pieces with a leaf net and you can vacuum the smaller debris. You'll also want to brush the floor to help the fine particles stay in solution so they can be filtered out. Your pump needs to run 24/7.

We advocate the BBB Method here which uses regular household bleach rather than pool store "Shock" products, and we use clarifiers and algaecides only under some very specific circumstances. We can help you get the pool cleaned up but it'll take some time and work on your part.

You may want to read the "Stickies". They pretty much contain all the information you'll need to make your water sparkle.

[wxwmn02]

1. We need current water testing results taken with a drops-based kit (no test strips). It is best if you test your own water rather than relying on a pool store because most pool stores do not always give accurate readings. The kit we recommend is the Taylor K-2006 or 2006C.

Sorry don't have this and I have been using the strips, but I see now that those are a no no. :-(


2. Please tell us exactly what all you have put in your pool --- ingredients -- not just "shock."

This is what I used to shock my pool...Dry chlorinating granules for swimming pools. 73% Calcium Hypochlorite. or...http://www.lesliespool.com/browse/Home/Pool-Chemicals/Pool-Shock/Power-Powder-Pro-50-lbs/D/30100/P/1:100:1000:100010/I/14181


3. Tell us what type and size (volume) your pool is. The pool is a circular, 10K gallons with a sand filter.


4. Don't add any more algaecide or clarifier or anything else right now until you give us some readings to look at.

I'll have readings tomorrow...was going to have those today, but hubby couldn't make it to the store. :-( so stay tuned.

5. Run your pump 24/7 while you are trying to clear the water. Watch your filter pressure and backwash whenever the pressure rises 8-10 psi over clean filter pressure.

I have been running the pump since the first day. The psi is just over 10 and when I back wash it's near 20. Not sure if that's normal or not, but it is of concern to me since I am not sure if it's backwashing correctly.

I have vacuumed everything off the bottom which happened about a week ago. I did read some of the stickies (I think that is what they were) and didn't find exactly what I was looking for. I think more than anything I am concerned about the filter/backwash. I pulled off the multiport valve to see if there was any obstruction, but couldn't see any. I just know that that when I back wash, the water doesn't have much strength to it.

Thank you for your help, I look forward to your words of wisdom when I have my chemical levels. :-)

[wxwmn02]

One more question...why is the Taylor K-2006 better than strips? I have only been a pool owner for 2 years (this being my 2nd summer) so I am a newbie.

[Watermom]

Hi again!

We like readings from drops based kits because they are more accurate than the strips. Also, pool stores will give you widely varying results. That is why we recommend doing your own testing with a good kit.

Did you also use cal-hypo as your source of chlorine last year? Getting a calcium hardness reading for us will be important as well as the other things -- pH, alk, cya, and at least two of the following three: FC, CC, TC.

Your filter pressures sound about right. My clean pressure is around 10-12 usually and I typically backwash when it hits around 20 or so.

I am thinking this is probably a vinyl pool, probably above ground. Is that right?

We'll be looking for your test results and then we'll help you get this pool sparkling!

[wxwmn02]

Yes, it's a vinyl, above ground pool. Sorry forgot to mention that.
Ok here's the #s...
FC = 5
TC = 5
PH = 7.4
Alk = 90
CYA = 50
CH = did not test for.

Yes, the shock I mentioned in my first post is the same stuff we used last summer.

Look forward to hearing from you.

BTW...bought bleach for the next time I need to shock and also purchased the test kit you recommended.

[Watermom]

Ok. Your numbers don't look too bad at all, but we really need that Calcium hardness reading. I suspect that maybe using cal-hypo exclusively for an extended period of time may have built up your calcium level quite a bit and that could possibly be the reason for your cloudy water. That may or may not be true. Also, the cal-hypo itself can cause cloudy water. I'd suggest no more cal-hypo and just use bleach. Glad you bought some.

Since your pool is still cloudy, I'm going to suggest that you go ahead and shock the pool with bleach. With a cya reading of 50, (which is a good level, by the way) you will need to shock up to a cl level of 15 and try and hold it there for a bit. Try and test a couple of times today and each time, add enough bleach to get the cl back up to 15. Do this sometime during the day today and then this evening when the sun is off the pool. Then, in the morning before the sun is on the pool, test again and see if you lost any chlorine overnight. If you lose no more than 1ppm from sundown to sunup, then it will tell us that you water probably doesn't contain any algae and you should be able to let the cl level drift down. With cya of 50, you'll want to always keep your chlorine between 3-5 ppm. If you go below 3, you'll risk another algae bloom.

In a 10,000 gallon pool, each quart of 6% bleach will raise the cl level by 1.5ppm.

Another thing that could be clouding your water is just the dead algae from your previous algae bloom that just needs to filter out. Continue running your pump/filter 24/7 while clearing your pool.

Another thing you can do that may help is to buy some skimmer socks to help catch the small particulate in the water. You may also want to try adding a little DE to your sand filter. Some of us do that and it helps. You can read about that here:

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=3742

I've given you several things to try. Keep us posted how it is going and also repost with your calcium hardness reading.

[wxwmn02]

I won't have my test kit for awhile since I ordered it on amazon so I'll just have to wing it with the cl (assuming that stands for chlorine level?) I am going to go add bleach to my pool now. How long after I add it, can I swim in the pool? Just curious since I know with shock you have to wait awhile.

[Watermom]

If it is just a maintenance dose of bleach you can swim maybe 15-30 minutes later. Just want to give it time to disperse in the water so you don't swim through a "hot pocket" of bleach. It is actually ok to swim in higher cl levels than you think but you just don't want to wear a new suit. Better to wear an old one that you won't care if it fades. There is no magic number to swim in. I probably wouldn't swim if it was higher than 10 in my pool but there is no set cutoff number.

What kit did you buy from Amazon and what price? I have always had really fast service any time I have ordered things from Amazon so hopefully your kit will be here soon.

[wxwmn02]

This is the kit I bought...
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002IXIIG/ref=oss_product

I added 1.42 gallon bottle of bleach to the pool. I added a little bit at first and then a couple of hours later I checked the level (with a strip), but the color wasn't a bright purple for a high level so I added the entire bottle. I will check it in the morning to see what the level is.

[Watermom]

Yep, that's the right kit, but not as good a price as we've seen at other places. At any rate, hope you get it soon so you can start playing chemist!:p

[wxwmn02]

Here is the tool kit I bought.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002IXIIG/ref=oss_product

I added about 3/4 of a 1.42 gallon bottle of bleach and then tested the water about 2 hours later and the strip didn't show enough in there so I added a little more. I will go out this morning and see how much is in there.

I thought of something over night. When I first started shocking the pool I added the shock to skimmer forgetting that I needed to add it to water first to let it dissolve. Could that have something to do with it?

[CarlD]

That's the right kit, the Taylor K-2006. You MIGHT have been able to get it for $20 cheaper but over this year alone it will save you that many times over. The main tests you'll use are:
FAS-DPD for FC and CC
pH
T/A (total Alk)
CYA (Stabilizer)
CH (hardness)

I think they have an acid and base demand tests as well but you won't need to worry about them much, if at all.

Since you have a vinyl pool you'll probably not need to run the CH test more than once or twice during and ONLY if you suspect your calcium levels are too high. I run it at the beginning of the season for a baseline, but only occasionally run it a second time during the summer.

So go ahead and use your new kit! BTW, the FAS-DPD needs only enough powder to turn the solution red. More does nothing. If one scoop is enough, it's enough.
Post results for:
FC
CC
pH
T/A
CYA
CH

[aylad]

I thought of something over night. When I first started shocking the pool I added the shock to skimmer forgetting that I needed to add it to water first to let it dissolve. Could that have something to do with it?

If you have backwashed the filter since you added the "shock", then it has been washed away and won't be available for your pool. If you have not backwashed the filter, then it will dissolve and eventually make it into your pool--after it finishes sanitizing anything that may be in your filter, if there's any left. If you use granular chlorine in the future, you might want to pre-dissolve it in a bucket of water and pour it in , very slowly, in front of a return so that you get the full benefit of it in the pool instead of in the filter.

Janet

[wxwmn02]

The kit has shipped so hopefully I'll get it in the next couple of days. I have kept the chlorine level high as you suggested, but still no change. I am beyond curious to know what the calcium level is so if that's the problem I can fix it.

[Watermom]

Be consistent with keeping the cl level high and don't let it yo-yo up and down. Sustain it which means you have to test multiple times a day and each time shock it back up.

[wxwmn02]

Just got my test kit and the Calcium level or CH is 690ppm. From what I have read in the book that is way too high. How do I bring that down?

[Watermom]

Yep. That is high alright -- just what i suspected. The only way to lower it unfortunately is to do a partial drain and refill. Retest it one more time to make sure you got it right. Actually, why don't you go ahead and post a current set of all testing numbers for everything for us to look at.

By the way, how does the water look today?

[wxwmn02]

I figured that would be your answer. We will have the other #s for you this afternoon.

[wxwmn02]

Here are the #s. They seem a bit off so I may need to get them again. However, the pool is being refilled now so I expect them to be different.
FAC = 9
TAC = 1
PH = 7.1
Alk = 80
CH = 500
CYA = 65

[Watermom]

I think you need to do a partial drain and refill. But, do NOT totally drain this pool! if you can drain about half, that should get your calcium level and your cya levels down to a more manageable reading. Then, I would not use any more cal-hypo. Stick with bleach. Watch your pH. It is pretty low. Don't want it below 7.0. or it can damage your pool. May want to add a cup of Borax to the skimmer slowly while the pump is running and see how high that will raise it. Anywhere from 7.2-7.8 is ok.

Your chlorine numbers are not quite right. FC + CC = TC. So, your FC can't be 9 and your TC 1. Maybe try that test again.

EDIT -- I just now reread your post and noticed you said it is being refilled. How much did you drain? After it is refilled, retest and repost with new numbers, but still -- keep an eye on that pH. It is pretty low.

[wxwmn02]

We only drained it to just pass the skimmer. It's now refilled so I will have to get the new readings tomorrow. I can always drain it again and refill it for a 2nd time if the new chem levels are high. I didn't think that chlorine levels were right. Hopefully I can figure them out tomorrow.

What is Borax? Where would I find that?

[aylad]

Borax is commonly found in the laundry aisle at WalMart, Target, grocery stores, or some have also seen it at Lowe's and some hardware stores. It's called 20-Mule Team Borax, and is still in a green box at our WalMart, although their website has it pictured in a new white box. It's used to raise pH without significantly raising TA.

Janet

[wxwmn02]

Here the chem levels.
CH = 230 or 540. The directions said wait for the color to turn from red to blue, however the water never really turned to a blue color. it did change from redish pink to a purple. I kept adding drops for it to change over to blue, but instead it kept getting to a lighter shade of purple. So the first # is when it changed over to a purple and the 2nd is when it got to a really light shade of purple.
CYA = 42
TA = 60
PH = 7.2
FC = 8.4
CC = 1
TC = 9.4

I don't feel very confident in my #s because their idea of red is my idea of pink and basically their color scheme was not what I was expecting.

I know that my TA is low and I can add baking soda to bring that and the PH up, right? Would you suggest doing that?

Also, the water is still cloudy so maybe the high CH is correct?

[CarlD]

No, I'd say the 230 is the real number. It's the CHANGE in color that matters, not the shade. It may be as high as 300, but once it changed to purple you were there.

With the FC, DEEP pink is more usual than true red, at most a scarlet.

I don't think the CH is your problem. With a TA of 60, moderately low pH and a vinyl pool, even if you were really at 500 for CH it shouldn't cloud up. But you've put in clarifier and other stuff that can make it worse.

Still, if the cloud is white and milky it's probably not algae, but if it's darker or green it is probably algae and I think it is.

So... you STILL need more chlorine. With your CYA level you need to boost your pool to 15ppm for your free chlorine and keep it there. My BEST clue is you are still showing a CC of over 1ppm--you are fighting something so you need to shock your pool up. Use only bleach or liquid chlorine--neither Tri-chlor tabs, Di-Chlor powder, or Cal-Hype powder are appropriate given your numbers.

Good luck!

[Watermom]

More information makes it easier to help. Now that we have a CC reading of 1 which you weren't able to report before, and are now reporting calcium hardness of 230 rather than the 690 noted above, it changes things. It does tell us that you are most likely fighting an algae bloom. Follow the advice Carl gave above. Try and keep your high cl sustained. Test at least twice (and 3 or more is even better) times per day and each time add enough bleach to get back to shock level. Also run the pump 24/7. If you can maintain that high cl without letting it yo-yo up and down, it should take care of killing the algae and the filter can filter it out. When you get to the point where the water is clearing up, you have no more measurable CC and you aren't losing more than 1ppm of chlorine overnight, then you can let the cl level drift down. Keep us posted how it is going.

(BTW -- another example of how having a good test kit will help you figure out what is going on. Otherwise it is just an educated guess, at best.)

[wxwmn02]

How long after I add bleach, can I check the #s again? We had rain here today which basically negated everything I did. Current #s are as follows...FC: 5.2, TC: 5.6, CC: .4, PH: 7.4, TA: 90, CH: 350, CYA: 45

[aylad]

I would let it circulate for an hour or so before you retest.

Janet

[CarlD]

If those numbers hold (CC of .4), then I think shocking your pool up to 15ppm (FC) and holding it there for 24-48 hours should show significant progress.

[wxwmn02]

Do I want an combined chlorine when I do my test?

[CarlD]

Do I want an combined chlorine when I do my test?

No, Zero CC is the best number. But you want to KNOW the CC when you test the water. You either need to test for it or for total chlorine since:

TC = FC +CC

So, if you know FC, then, if you have TC, you can compute CC.

[wxwmn02]

FC = 7.8
CC = 0

Still cloudy. Adding bleach now to get it back up to 15. Not sure what the level was yesterday...will have ask hubby and get back to you.

[Watermom]

Yay for 0 CC!!!! Keep it at shock level. How many times a day are you testing? Test and dose at least twice a day and more often will just speed up the process. It isn't possible to test and dose too often. The sustained high cl is what is needed. If it drops significantly before the next dose of bleach, it just slows everything down. IF your chlorine doesn't drop more than 1ppm overnight and you still show 0 CC in the morning, then it might be time to use our DE trick for helping sand filters trap the fine stuff. See this thread for info about that. You also might get some skimmer socks to use.

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=3742

You only gave two readings. You have the others?

Getting closer! Have you been reading any of the other threads where people have had a similar problem to yours who made it to the other side and now have sparkling, clear water? If not, do so. It will give you some hope that you're gonna get there, too! :)

[wxwmn02]

We are only testing once a day because my husband and I are out of town, but we have someone coming in the evening to do the test because they live a pretty good distance from our house.

The CC has been zero for a few days (since Sunday I think?), so should I do the DE now? Is that the same as Borax? If not, then when do I need to pu that in? What is DE?

[Watermom]

It is NOT the same as Borax. D.E. (Diatomaceous earth) powder is the filter media used in D.E. filters. It can actually filter out smaller stuff than a sand filter. Many of us with sand filters add a little to help it filter out the small stuff. You can read more info about it in the following thread:

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=3742

When will you be home? It would help to know if you are losing more than 1ppm of chlorine from sundown to sunup the next day. We recommend that people keep a high cl level until they aren't losing more than 1ppm of cl overnight.

How does the water look?

[wxwmn02]

Ok, that sounds good and it probably will help. I have heard that a "dirty" sand filter is a little better than a clean one because there is less open areas between the sand to filter the water.

As of yesterday the water was still cloudy.

I will be home tomorrow so I can get a ready Friday night and then again early Saturday morning.

[wxwmn02]

Just checked pool chem levels. TC = 8. I added bleach to bring it back up to 15. I will check tomorrow morning for new level. I am about out of test kit chemicals. Would a pool store have that?

Water is clearing. I can see down to 3rd step on ladder whereas before I could only see to 2nd step.

Can I get DE at pool store as well? Do I need to add Borax?

I will check for the other chem levels and get back to you.

[Watermom]

A pool store should have refills and DE. How many times a day are you testing and adding bleach? Since you are back in town, tomorrow, if I was you, I would test and add more bleach every 3-4 hours throughout the weekend until you get to where you are not losing more than 1ppm of cl overnight. And, run the pump 24/7. Are you watching your filter pressure?

I don't know if you need Borax or not. You didn't list your pH. Actually, post a whole set of current water testing results.

[wxwmn02]

I was planning on checking many times tomorrow. I plan on checking tomorrow morning before the sun hits the pool and then a couple more times during the day.

I need to check my pressure. I have only been home an hour so have only had time to check pool chemicals. I'll check the rest of the stuff when things calm down a little bit.

Current chem levels:
CH = 180
CYA = 52
TA = 90
PH = 7.2
FC = 8

I know the PH is low so I plan on adding stuff for that.

[Watermom]

You are actually ok with pH of 7.2 as long as it goes no lower. Sometimes, it seems that chlorine works better at clearing a pool when the pH is on the low end of the normal range.

[wxwmn02]

Things are on hold until I can get refills for the chemicals in my kit. Went to two pool stores yesterday and both were out of what I need. I have been adding bleach periodically to try and keep up the level even though I am unsure of what it is. I have a general idea of what it is because of the strips I have, but certainly don't know the exact level.

We've had a lot of rain lately so I am sure that it's affecting the Chlorine. Also, when I backwash, it doesn't appear to be working correctly so I am unsure how to fix that. Because of that I haven't put in D.E. because I'm afraid I won't be able to get it out by backwashing. I am hoping to take the valve in on Thursday to see what the problem is (if any) with that.

Any ideas on what could be wrong with the backwashing.

[Watermom]

Until you can get some refills, can you stop in at Walmart and pick up a 5-way test kit or at least an OTO kit? We can help you get by on one of those for a couple of days if necessary. You may have to order refills online.

Explain exactly what is going on with the backwashing and why you don't think it is working. To be able to help with that problem we need some more info.

[wxwmn02]

The amount of water that is coming out is pretty small. When I first opened the pool this year the water would gush out pretty fast, almost like a fire hose, but now it's not coming out much at all. Almost like at faucet speed.

It appears to be circulating correctly, but definitely not working correctly when it's backwashing. I took the valve head off to see if there was anything in there blocking the path of the water, but couldn't find anything. Then again, I wasn't able to get everything out that was under the valve head so maybe something is in there that's obscuring that path?

The nozzle that comes out of the valve head where the water comes out when backwashing is cracked so I have a new one to put on, but need a monkey wrench which I will get today.

I'll go by walmart today and pick up the 5 way kit.

[Watermom]

I put a link to this thread in the equipment section of the forum so maybe some of our equipment/filter people will see it and come take a look at this problem for you.

[wxwmn02]

I got the test kit from walmart, now what? Do I test for total chlorine/total Bromine? The level of that only goes up to 10, thought I need it up to 15?

[Watermom]

You don't have bromine in your pool.

Run all the tests. If your chlorine level is higher than the tester can go, you can use dilution to make it go higher. Take one part pool water and 1 part distilled water. Mix them together and fill your test vial with it. Then run the test and multiply the results by 2. If that doesn't read high enough, take 1 part pool water and 2 parts distilled, test and multiply by 3, etc.

Post all your numbers tomorrow and also tell us how the water looks.

[CarlD]

The OTO test is for both chlorine and bromine-based pools. If you have a bromine-based pool (and you don't) the scale goes to 10ppm. If you have a chlorine-based pool, the scale goes to 5ppm. That's why it's marked 5/10. Ignore the bromine scale.

[wxwmn02]

PROBLEM SOLVED!!! It helps to have the pool on the right setting. Had the pool on recirculate vs filter. Pool is clear.

[PoolDoc]

Amazing how that works. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I'd feel all superior here, except I've done that on a 240,000 gallon pool!

PoolDoc