pool store ethics?

[henssguitars]

Hi there, new to the forum.
I am a bit embarassed to admit that I am a baquacil user, worked great the first year, nothing but problems so far this season.
I will be converting soon.
I have a 24 round above ground pool with a deep end (15000 gal ) , and have been fighting algae and cloudy water for the last three weeks. after spending $600 on baquacil products - and floc my water was about 90% clear this morning.
I took a sample to be tested that indicated TA - 0 after adding 25 lbs of alkalinity increase this week,
also my calcium hardness - 46 after adding 20 lbs of calcium hardness increaser this week, ph - 7.2
my pinpoint analysis recomended adding 26 lbs of alkalinity increase, and 25 lbs of calcium hardness increaser both divided into three applications.
So I did just that, and five minutes later I have a giant bowl of milk!
would have been nice if the pool store would have told me not to add these two chemicals on the same day!
So I guess my question is, does anybody have experience with this sort of thing, and how long does this ussually take to clear up?

Thanks for your help

[CarlD]

Hi there, new to the forum.
I am a bit embarassed to admit that I am a baquacil user, worked great the first year, nothing but problems so far this season.
I will be converting soon.
I have a 24 round above ground pool with a deep end (15000 gal ) , and have been fighting algae and cloudy water for the last three weeks. after spending $600 on baquacil products - and floc my water was about 90% clear this morning.
I took a sample to be tested that indicated TA - 0 after adding 25 lbs of alkalinity increase this week,
also my calcium hardness - 46 after adding 20 lbs of calcium hardness increaser this week, ph - 7.2
my pinpoint analysis recomended adding 26 lbs of alkalinity increase, and 25 lbs of calcium hardness increaser both divided into three applications.
So I did just that, and five minutes later I have a giant bowl of milk!
would have been nice if the pool store would have told me not to add these two chemicals on the same day!
So I guess my question is, does anybody have experience with this sort of thing, and how long does this ussually take to clear up?

Thanks for your help

Oh, No! You have been "Pool Stored"! None of those chemicals will address your problems and will just make it worse. But we can help. Before I begin, please understand that you are not at fault. You are a VICTIM! If I seem to criticize, please don't take it personally. It is not directed at you. It just infuriates me and many others here whenever a new victim comes to us, upset, hurting, and out a lot of wasted money.

First of: NEVER add a calcium increaser again. Calcium is solely for concrete or plaster pools, to protect the calcium in the mortar and plaster. You have a vinyl pool. At best the calcium does nothing and empties your wallet. At worst it turns your water cloudy and contributes to scaling. Pool stores sell unsuspecting victims calcium all the time.

Second: Total Alkalinity increase is nothing but baking soda, NO MATTER WHAT THEY TELL YOU! It's the same chemical Arm&Hammer sells in the orange box. Plus, when fighting an algae bloom it is NOT going to help. Combine THAT with lots of calcium and...VOILA! A milky pool.

Next they will try to sell you a phosphate remover--that's their latest scam. It won't help.

Fourth: You have two choices. You fight algae with Baq products and I don't have much expertise on that, or you can begin the conversion to chlorine now (Might as well--your pool's already in a bad state) which will make your pool look WORSE for a while.

Fifth: Go back to the pool store and get them to re-test your water. Don't buy anything, but say something like "I want to see what progress I'm making" or some such. Do not take their recommendations--they have already shown they sell you what they think they can con you into buying.

Sixth: Insist they give you the following results:

Level of Baq in the water (Should be equivalent to Free Chlorine and Combined Chlorine--somebody who knows Baq can lay that out)

pH

Total Alkalinity (now very high)

Total or Calcium Hardness (also very high)

Stabilizer (if such a thing is used in Baq).

Seventh: Get your own test kit. If you are converting you will need it, and when you are done it will be worth every penny. We recommend either the Taylor Technologies K-2006 or K-2006C, or from Leslies on-line the FAS-DPD Service Test Kit (same as the K-2006). There are other FAS-DPD test kits available on-line, but not too many. You can't find them in pool stores. This kit will repay you many, many times over.

Eigth: In this section, read up on PHMB conversions. It's going to take lots and lots of chlorine. Depending on where you live, it may be easiest to use bleach--unscented, regular bleach, either normal (5.25%) or ultra (6%). Some pool stores sell 12% Liquid Chlorine, sometimes labeled "Liquid Shock"--if it costs more than double the 6%, don't buy it. Many sell 5 gallon blue carboys of the stuff. If they do, you can use it but be sure to buy a re-usable nozzle for--about $4. You will use a LOT of chlorine!

Ninth: We are here to help. Your pool store is clearly out to separate you from your money and will NOT help. They will never recommend simple, clear steps, but it will always be some other wonder chemical--that won't work.

Tenth and last: You will need one final, crucial ingredient: P.O.P.P. This stands for Pool Owner Patience and Persistence.

[aylad]

Two of the cheapest online sites I have found for the Taylor kit are http://www.amatoind.com and http://www.spspools-spas.com. I've never ordered from the first one, but I've ordered lots of times from the second one and never had a problem.

Welcome to the forum!! Guess you've seen by now that "pool store" and "ethics" is kind of an oxymoron, most of the time--there are a few honest, ethical ones out there, but they're hard to time sometimes. We can help you fix the pool, but Carl has laid out the steps and what it'll take to get there. Let us know when you're ready!

Janet

[Watermom]

And, there are probably pool stores who aren't deliberately being dishonest, but they just don't really know about pool chemistry. Usually hiring people to work there who have no knowledge about pools.

[henssguitars]

thanks so much for the help!
I just had a heated arguement over the phone with the pool store, and ended up "firing" them to put it politely.
They told me that the issue is completely my fault, after following every instruction they gave me to the T! - not very good buisness in my eyes.
So I have severed my ties with them,(probabally banned from the store ) the only problem is that they are the only store in my area capable of accurate baquacill testing, so I can only test with strips now.
I put a call into a private pool guy that I know and trust to help me with converting asap, and hope to hear from him soon.
I will certainly order or pick up a chlorine test kit, and start the conversion soon.
I am glad to have found this forum, and realize I am not alone.
Any tips or tricks on the conversion would be muc appreciated.

[henssguitars]

Hi Janet, this is a little embarasing, but the second link you provided for the test kit is the exact store I just fired! (small world)

[Watermom]

Have you read through some of the older threads where people have shared their experience with the conversion process? I vote to go ahead and start the conversion. That way you don't need any more baq products. Plus, you are gonna be so glad you did it once you get it completed. Go ahead and start. It isn't hard, just takes persistence. Besides, it will make your pool all kinds of pretty shades of green! ;);) but after it is over, your water is gonna sparkle!

[aylad]

Hi Janet, this is a little embarasing, but the second link you provided for the test kit is the exact store I just fired! (small world)

Wow, sure is!! I order almost all of my test kit reagents from them, have used them for a few years, and have never had a problem with them. :confused: In fact, when I screwed up on an online order a few months ago and called them, they fixed it over the phone. However, I've never asked them for advice--I just order what I need. Sorry to hear you had that experience with them...

Janet

[henssguitars]

ok enough screwing around, I am headed to my local leslies store to pick up liquid cl and a test kit, any idea on amount of liquid cl i should pick up to have on hand?
lots I'm sure!
I am sure there is a good bit of baq products still in the pool.
I have been checking out other conversion threads, but I just don"t want to do anything wrong, I feel like I have allready wasted lots of time and money and don't want to take any more steps backwards.

Thanks for your help,

Bill

[aylad]

It's not uncommon for people to go through 25-30 gallons or more of 6% chlorine (bleach) to get through the conversion. You will definitely need a test kit that measures FC and CC (or FC and TC).

You won't regret it, I promise!!

Janet

[henssguitars]

picked up test kit and 24 gallons of 12.5% liqiud cl
just added 3 gallons and we have brown! - its working!
I am getting ready to dive into the test kit instructions so I can test accuratally, looks a little overwhelming at first but I am sure I'll get the hang of it.
Anybody else who has gone through this in the past, please chime in with any tips or suggestions.

Thanks again!

[aylad]

Just know when you go into this that your pool is going to turn some very different, sometimes scary colors. Just stick with it, keep it at shock level (15 ppm) as consistently as you can, and it will all be over soon!!

The pressure on your filter will probably rise pretty often due to the bacqua-goo that collects, so keep an eye on it and backwash it as needed. Also keep in mind that your pH readings will be off with the high amounts of chlorine you're using--usually read falsely high, so I wouldn't do any adjusting until later on, as long as it's above 7.0. Keep the pool at shock level until you're not losing any chlorine overnight and the pool is clear--then add your stabilizer, let your Cl drift back down, and change your filter media, and then you'll be in business!!!!

Janet

[henssguitars]

thanks for the ecouraging words! Ill have to run to the hardware store to pick up a new pressure guage, as mine has been toast for two years now.
I plan on testing every two hours and adjusting as needed.
Now I just need to find a magnafying glass to read these test kit instructions.
Can you add too much liquid cl in the begining?
Not that I plan on it, just curious.

Thanks

[aylad]

I think that the Baq pretty much uses up the chlorine in the beginning as fast as you put it in the pool--but just to be on the safe side for your liner's sake, I think I'd keep it at no higher than 15-20 ppm.

Janet

[henssguitars]

thanks, I think I may need more liquid cl before monday when the pool store opens, can I use the liquid bleach in the meantime if needed?
just tested after adding 3 gallons of liquid cl no trace of cl, I must have lots of baq junk in the pool that the cl is attacking.
I added 4 more gallons and will test in an hour or so.
Again I am very greatfull for everybodys help, it makes this a lot less stressfull.
Thanks,

Bill

[aylad]

Bleach is the same thing as liquid chlorine, just don't get the stuff that's scented or with extra additives. Pool store liquid chlorine is 12.5 %, regular bleach is 5.25%, and ultra is 6%. I use the generic bleach from WalMart almost exclusively in my pool.

Janet

[henssguitars]

thanks again!
I am going through cl like it is going out of style!
after adding a total of 18 gallons of 12.5 I still can't get a reading above 1.5 fc with the test kit.
I hope I am reading it right, I will certainly run to wall mart in the a.m to fill my pick up full of bleach.
I know my baq oxidizer level was high when I started, so I am sure that is the culprit.
The water turns deep brown right after I add the cl, than fades to light green.
I have back washed several times and will keep testing every hour, adding cl until I go to bed.
Hope this is the proper procedure.

[CarlD]

Unless your pressure is rising and the force at your return falling, don't bother backwashing. I don't think you need to test more than 3x/day.

But you're going to use a lot of chlorine!

[Watermom]

Don't forget to take pictures along the way.

[henssguitars]

Hi all ~ this is Bill's wife...thanks so much for all your help so far. Bill has splashed CL in his eye so I'm doing the typing :)

We have been taking pictures...our neighbors thought our pool was filled with chocolate milk. Very funny!

So far we have added 18 gallons of 12.5% liquid CL. We just took a reading that indicated 3 FC. Our test kit only goes to 5 FC. How do I know when FC levels are at the recommended 15ppm with our test kit? I'm worried we are going to add too much too fast.

Thanks again for all of you input ....we would be lost without you!

[Watermom]

You can use a dilution method to make your test kit read higher. It does lose accuracy but will at least give you a ballpark figure. Take one part pool water and an equal part distilled water. Mix, pour some into the test vial. Then, multiply the result by 2. If that doesn't go as high as you need, take one part pool water and two parts distilled water, then multiply results by 3, etc.

Hope Bill's eye is ok.

[CarlD]

Yes, remember it MUST be distilled water--"Steam Distilled Water" is available in gallon jugs at supermarkets and discount drug chains.

Usually we warn people to wear eye protection when using Muriatic Acid, but obviously, due to Bill's accident, it's clear we should recommend it when using Liquid Chlorine, especially the stronger strengths.

I, too, hope Bill is OK. That's a scary thing to have happen.

Please remember P.O.P.P. is critical!

[henssguitars]

my eye is doing just fine after some antibiotic drops.
I tested at 7 this morning at 5ppm fc and added 3 gallons of 12.5 % cl, and have maintained 15 + ppm for the last three hours.
the pool is starting to clear up around the edges, still have pea soup in the middle.
I believe we are on the right track!
I will continue to test every hour or so and add cl as needed
So we went from solid white milk to dark brown chocolate milk to pea soup and now we are moving to the mountain dew! - pretty interesting to watch.
I will keep updating the progress, and add photo's when my wife shows me how that is done.

Thanks again for the support!

p.s why do they sell test kits that are only capable of reading fc to 5ppm?

[CarlD]

"p.s why do they sell test kits that are only capable of reading fc to 5ppm? "

We're lucky they sell THEM! Most OTO kits stop at 3ppm.

According to an archaic ruling by either the EPA or FDA (I think FDA), pool water wasn't safe to swim in at greater than 3ppm.

This is ironic because they ruled DRINKING water could be as much as 4ppm, and under rare circumstances as much as 10ppm.

In other words you could safely drink water you couldn't swim in!:confused:

Somewhere along the line (and others know this better than me) it became a TEKTAT that the ideal chlorine level was between 1.5 and 3ppm--which ain't bad if you don't have any stabilizer.

TEKTAT: Things Everybody Knows That Ain't True.

(Wasn't it Will Rogers who said something about not being worried about what people didn't know, but rather about what they knew that wasn't so?)

[aylad]

If you're moving to Mountain Dew, then you're moving in the right directions!! Glad the eye is better--that hurts like crazy, I know from experience!!

Janet

[henssguitars]

Hi all. sorry I haven't posted in a few days, we have had rain for the begining of the week which made dealing with the pool difficult.
So we have blue water with some cloudyness, and lots of white powder like stuff on the bottom. I have vacuumed the white stuff to waste twice, each time stirring it up a bit making the water cloudy again.
FC has been holding at 15ppm overnight for two days now ( after 60 gallons of 6% liquid chlorine) - not complaining, just seemed like a lot, but far less than what I have spent on baq crap allready this season!
So I guess I need to ask what my next move should be?
When should I worry about the PH,ALK,ect. , and also changing my sand out.

Thanks for all your help!

[henssguitars]

Just an update, the pool has held 15 ppm overnight for the last two nights, the water is slightly cloudy, with white powder deposits on the floor.
I have vacuumed two waste twice which has stirred up the deposits, and left the water cloudy again.
My question is what is my next step, should I worry about PH, ALK, and changing my sand?
The pool looks better after 4 or so days ( $100 worth of bleach ) than it did for three weeks ( $600 of baq crap ), I am very happy, and just want to make sure I do everything I need to to keep it up.

Thanks for all the help!

[aylad]

Great, you're almost through!!!!! Now that you're holding at 15 for two nights, it's time to measure pH, and TA. While you're at it, go ahead and get a calcium reading too, just for a baseline. You can go ahead and change out the sand now. Once you put the new sand in(Note: START THE FILTER UP IN BACKWASH MODE TO RINSE ALL THE DUST OUT OF THE SAND BEFORE SWITCHING IT TO FILTER MODE--please forgive the yelling, but see my post in the "pool lessons learned the hard way" forum). then you can go ahead and add your stabilizer. You can get it at WalMart, Lowe's, Home Depot, or the pool store. It's also labeled sometimes as balancer, but the active ingredient will be cyanuric or isocyanuric acid. Note how much is needed according to the label to get your pool to about 20 ppm, then only add about 1/2 that amount either through the skimmer (but then you can't backwash for at least a week) or better yet, put it in an old tube sock and hang it in front of a return in your pool until it dissolves. Post your readings for pH and TA, and we'll help you get it finished.

Janet

Note: Since pH tends to read falsely high with Cl levels above 10 ppm, I'd let it drift down a little before testing for pH and TA...maybe to around 6-8 ppm

[henssguitars]

sorry for the double post, the first one did't seem to register.
The water is crystal clear this a.m with more deposits on the floor, I will vacuum to waste once more and pick up new sand, and stabalizer, cl levels are high, so I will wait for the sun to pop out and bring them down before posting ph test.
So I take it that the stabalizer will help maintain the fc levels during sunny days?
Also what are my target numbers for ph, alk,fc,tc, I am sure there is a thread here if you could point me to it I would appreciate it.
I am not sure what to do with my unused baq products, I would almost feel guilty selling them to another pool owner, maybe I will throw them in the trash and take a photo and e-mail it to the baq website-ha!

Thanks again for all your help, I will post updates, and photos soon.

Bill

[Watermom]

The reason that your post didn't seem to register at first is that Ben is updating the privileges for the various user groups. Restricted users will have to have their posts "moderated" which means that after you post, it won't show up immediately. Not until after one of the moderators validates it. If you go ahead and subscribe or become a supporter, your posts will not need to be moderated and you'll also have several other features enabled that restricted users don't have. (Including the ability to post photos which you currently don't have.) More info about this can be found here:

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=9755

Hopefully, you have found our forum really helpful and will want to either become a subscriber or a supporter and stick around here with us! ;)

At any rate, glad you are doing so well with your conversion. Aren't you glad you went ahead and did it? You are going to be much happier with a chlorine pool than a baq pool.

Yes, stabilizer helps to protect your chlorine from the sun. I would advise you to go and read the stickies at the top of each of the "Pool Water Treatment: Testing and Problems" sections of the forum. There you will find most of the pool care chemistry basics information. After reading, if you still have specific questions, let us know.

[henssguitars]

Hi All....just an update :)

All levels are testing correctly except for CYA which is a given. I picked up stabilizer and plan on adding it in the a.m. I also replaced the sand in the filter, after back-washing several times sand is still coming through the returns in the pool. Any suggestions?

Thanks again for all the help!!!


Bill

[Watermom]

After you backwash, are you putting it on rinse for a few seconds before back to filter? That is an important step in the backwash routine.