Brown water in pool- from Iron

[newguyjosh]

I purchased an 15' by 48" (4400 gallons) Intex metal frame pool this year and filled it up with well water. It looked ok at first but once it got about 1/4 of the way the water started looking brown. Not knowing any better I went ahead and filled it the rest of the way up and it is very brown. Started running the filter and it is continually changed to rust orange. I added some liquid cholirine (just under 1 gallon) and ran the filter which didn't help. I also have the intex saltwater system so I added salt but havent started running the saltwater system yet. At this point it sounds like the problem was iron from the well water. I really want to be able to swim in this thing as soon as possible but don't know what to do. I bought some HTH metal treatment stuff from walmart today. My plan was to drain about 1/4 to 1/2 the water out of the pool and refill it from a hose hooked to my kitchen faucet (has been through water softener) instead of the hose outside. I will also use the HTM metal stuff or soemthing else if you guys can recommend something?

The pool was only 250 dollars so I don't want to spend all summer and a ton of money on getting clear water..Does a partial drainage and adding HTH metal sound like a good plan? If not what else should I do? Will I have to continue to use metal stuff all year?

This is my first pool so I also need to know at what point if any I should add more cholorine and when I should turn the saltwater system on.

I have the strip chemical tests and it looks like my ph is over 8 and my alkalinity is off the scale on the high end.

[Watermom]

Until Marie (our metals expert) gets a look at your post, I would suggest that you go and read some of the other threads in this section. You will learn a lot from hearing what she has told some of the others to do. She'll be along shortly to help, although by then, you may have read enough that you can go ahead on your own. Also read the stickies at the top of the forum. I would also suggest that you go buy the $15 (or thereabouts) 5 or 6-Way test kit at Walmart that is a drops-based kit and use that instead of test strips. You'll get more accurate results. Good luck.

[mbar]

It does certainly sound like you have metals from your well water. You can try the drain and refill, however I would add the sequestering agent (metal out) before you start to add the water from your faucet. You also need to have your other chemistry numbers because if the ph is high - then when you add chlorine, the combination of high chlorine and high ph is what causes the metals to fall out of solution. The sequestering agent is what binds with the metals to keep them in suspension. Some people who have had really badly colored water added a flocculant, turned off the filter and then let the rust fall to the bottom of the pool and then vacuum it out. I have never tried this, but I have not ever had discolored water, just stains. I'm sorry I don't have a better answer for you, but I would try the metal out and the drain first. Let me know how you do, so we can all learn from each other.:)

[newguyjosh]

So HTH told me I had to wait until the the free chlorine level was below 1 to add the metal control...is this correct?

My chlorine is measuring around 10 ppm from the intiall shock dose I added I guess...I do not have any stabilizer in there...how long should this take to return to a low enough level?

Also waht level of chlorine is safe to swim in?

Thanks

[newguyjosh]

actually as I look at it more closely it appears the iron/rust has actually collected on the bottom of the pool and walls making the water appear orange...if i brush the bottom of the pool the water below it looks fairly clear..so is there a wait to get this out...the vac that came with the pool sucks and not in a good way

[aylad]

The only way I know to get it out is to vacuum it out, which I would do if you've managed to get it to fall out in solid form. Without stabilizer in the water, by tomorrow afternoon your chlorine should be just about gone. Safe level for chlorine depends on your stabilizer level, but since you have none I'd say safe to swim at 3-5 ppm.

Welcome to the forum!!

Janet

[newguyjosh]

How long do I have to wait to swim after adding the metal control? How quickly should I see results?

[mbar]

You can swim anytime after using metal control. Just check the ph, some sequestering agents lower the ph and use up chlorine, so make sure both are in balance. You want your ph at the lower end no higher than 7.4 for the metal control to lift the recent stains off. High ph along with shock levels of chlorine will let any metals that are not sequestered to fall out of solution.

[newguyjosh]

So how long should I wait from the time I put the metal control in to put a ph minus in? The Ph is about 8.2 now. Whats the highest ph safe to swim?

HTH I was told to let the chlorine get below 1-2 at the highest before putting the metal control in which I did. I put just above the recommended dosage in about 4 hours ago...The water is less brown looking but is more greenish now and definately not clear.

Using test strips I get Free Chlorine at ~1, Ph 8.0-8.4, total alkalinity 240 or more thats as high as it goes, cya at 0...

What do I do next? Is this water safe for myself and girlfriend to get in...had it for a week and would love to get in it. When do I add more cholorine HTH people told me to wait 3 days before adding any more chlorine then another 3 days before shocking..seems like ill end up with algae...

I have had the pump runnning non stop all week

[newguyjosh]

Thanks for the post...I had not recieved any more replies on this thread in awhile and thought maybe people had considered it dead and stopped looking at it..here is a copy of the new day from the other post..Thanks again...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
added HTH Ph minus because the Ph was testing at 8.4 or above on my strips.

On saturday morning the water no longer looked brown but now looked green and I could see to the bottom of the pool. I continued to clean the cartridge filter 2-3 times per day and it was always orange and rusty looking. When I scooped water out in a bottle for a sample it looked clear!?

I took a sample of the water in to the pool place and got the following numbers:
Free Chlorine:0
Cya: 0
Total hardenss: 279
Ph: 7.5
Total alkalinity: 369
iron 1.5 ppm
Salt 1700

The pool place told me the iron may continue to decrease over the next few days with the metal control only being added the day before. They also advised me to wait a while longer on adding any chlorine. They said the biggest thing I needed to do was lower the alkalinity and they advised using muratic acid. 1/4 gallon then 1/4 gallon 4 hours later. If still high add more the next day up to another 1/2 gallon. Based on my readings on here I realized i would need to aerate to keep the Ph from dropping too much. My return valve from the filter/pump is angled slightly upward and the total water level for the pool is slightly low so water is splashing quite a bit which I think is doing the job of aeration?

Well at this point I have added 3/4 gallons of muratic acid and the pool still loooks greenish but mostly clear (meaning I can see the bottom of the pool). When I test using test strips the Ph still looks to be around 7.2 and the alkalinity looks just slightly darker then the max on my test strips of 240. I have still not added any more chlorine and I hae not started running the salt water system to generate any chlorine. I plan to take another sample to the pool place tomorrow.

So what should I do now? Keep addint muratic acid? When should I put some liquid chlorine or start the salt system? I'm afraid I'm gonna end up with algae soon (it has been cloudy and raining here the last several days so hopefully that keeps the algage at bay. I have been running the filter pump 24/7 except for cleanings.

Is the green water safe to swim in? I feel like this is never going to clear up. Why is the water in the bottle clear but the pool definately not?

Please help...

[aylad]

The brownish-orange color that you see is definitely your iron falling out of suspension. Now that you have sequestrant in the water, I would definitely start bringing the Cl up, a little at a time, to at least 3-5 ppm. If you start seeing the brown/orange color again, add more sequestrant. If you don't get some chlorine in the water soon, you are right that you will start an algae bloom, and you don't need that to complicate things!

You need to be very, very careful when adding that amount of acid to the pool. When you add the acid, it drops TA and pH, and then you aerate to raise pH--your aeration method sounds pretty good to me. When the pH gets back up to the 7.6-7.8 range, you can again add another dose of acid to bring the TA down a little further, then aerate to raise pH again. At no time do you want your pH below 7.0. That is acidic and can damage your pool. Lowering the TA is a gradual, ratcheting process (read the "lowering alk" sticky at the top of the "Dealing with Calcium and Alkalinity" forum). You can't do it all at once without trashing your pool.

Pool water without chlorine is not safe to swim in. You do need to get the chlorine in there, but again , you're going to have to do it slowly in order not to drop the metals back out. While you're at it, you need to get some stabilizer in the water--in your case I would put it in an old sock and hang it in front of a return. YOu'll need that to help keep the sun from eating up your chlorine, but remember that it takes several days for it to register in the water, so you'll need to make frequent chlorine additions until then. YOu want to target 20 ppm CYA in your pool, but only put in about half as much as the label recommends, because it's much easier to add more later than to overshoot it and have to drain/refill, especially with metals in the water that you're having to deal with.

Janet

Edit: I'm going to lock and delete the other thread. It is much, much easier for people trying to help you if you'll keep all your info for one problem in one thread!

[mbar]

Sorry I haven't answered sooner. I was in Texas, then flew to Philadelphia to attend my nephews graduation party, then today to my future daughter-in-law's bridal shower:eek: I am now home:)If it were my pool, this is what I would do:

Put a puck in the skimmer.
Start to add cya (stabilizer) - I am not sure how much you need for your salt system, but cya takes a while to register. I would put it in a sock and hang it by the skimmer. You don't want to put it in the skimmer because you will need to backwash often now, and you don't want to backwash any of the cya out. If you hang it by the skimmer, and squeeze the sock every now and then it will dissolve.
You have to continue to lower the alkalinity - just keep adding muriatic acid and keep the water aerating to raise the ph. Just make sure you don't let the ph to get too low - the puck in the skimmer will also lower ph. You can add borax if your ph goes too low. It will raise the ph without raising the alkalinity. (I know this is all confusing) The reason the pool store does not want you to add bleach right now is because the bleach will break down the metal out. So while I agree with this, a puck in the skimmer will add enough chlorine to keep the algae away while your cya is at 0. You can also add some polyquat 60 algaecide, but the algaecide also uses up chlorine. I know all of this is complicated, but once you get your water in balance it is very easy to maintain. You really have to get your alkalinity in check, because unbalanced alkalinity will cause a ph bounce and then it is hard to maintain a balanced pool. It all works together:D

I just read that Aylad answered your post - what she said:) It is the same advice.

[newguyjosh]

Thanks.

I turned the SWG on last night and added some cya. So far I have added 3/4 gallons of muriatic acid to lower the alkalinity. Water still green but can see bottom of pool. Havent had a chacne to get my own test kit (just have strips) but the pool store reported the following from todays sample. Haven't got a puck to put in yet either

Total chlorine 2, Free chlorine 2
Cya: 0
Ph: 7.4
Total alkalinty: 309- came down 60 but still way high
Total hardness 285

They advised continuing to add muraitic acid 1/4 gallon a time ove the next few days and seem to think if the alkalinity lowers the water will turn clear.

I have been cleaning the filter and reusing it several tiems per day but maybe I wil start replacing it more often.

Any other suggestions? Will lowering alkalinity actually clear it up or do I need to do something mroe about the iron? More metal control? Time with the fitler? thanks

[labdi01]

Hi Josh.

My name is Dianna, and I am a brand-new pool owner and have very high iron. I have an AG 24' pool (that I acquired with the house I just purchased).

We started, after initial-fill and shock - with "Cesspool, Opaque brown" water, and I spent $140 in sequestrants alone (not to mention all the balancing chems) to try to clear it (and daily trips to pool store for testing).

The sequestrants semi-cleared it over the course of 3 or so days - to a clear pool with a green tinge (which I think you're experiencing). Then I had to shock. Tried to do it slowly. Ended up at square 1 ("Cesspool Brown") and I was so disheartened (this happened this past Thu) and I was ready to either spend $300 to drain it and have it refilled - or rip the thing down. Lived this long without a pool, right?

Well, I found another way - and since Fri afternoon - not only is my pool CRYSTAL clear (no lie) - I did it without chemicals and worrying about that delicate balance of CL and pH because of metals. No more sequestrants, no bringing your CL down and risking a bloom (and more chems), etc.

Look under "New Pool Owner with High Iron Manually Removing Iron". I kid you not - it's crazy - and it works - and you're free of the "ball-and-chain" of having iron (you have to filter your fill water, tho). Our water has been 'to-the-eye' clear since 5:00 am today, and we've been running the homemade filter and still catching lots of brown (and my iron reading this am was ZERO at the STORE).

[newpoolgirl]

I have a 4'x16' round (5000gal) metal frame intex pool.The filter for that does nothing. At least your getting some help. My pool dealers around me told me to buy metal out and put it in. Well lets say it did nothing, and they didn't have any other advice. I ended up dumping my pool, and am now starting from scratch. Called HTH chemicals for their reccomendation. they said to fill, dump their metal out in pool with chlorine level at 0. Wait 4-5 days then it's ok to add chlorine. Also, I was reading online how to make a hose filter to try and catch most of the iron. I'll let you know how that goes.

[labdi01]

Hose filters help - but don't 'cure'. We used the Slime Bag too (captures particles as small as 1 micron).

What I'm seeing everyone say when you have to keep CL levels very low for an extended period of time, is to also use polyquat 60 algaecide during that period.

It goes by diff names (mine is black algae treatment), but look for the main ingredient of poly-something-something-ethylene 60% (not sure where the "quat" comes in).

Good luck to you!! I was SO ready to dump our 13.5+ gal swimming pool before we decided to try the homemade filter - and it's been a savior!

Keep posting!

[newpoolgirl]

Well yesterday was day 5 after using hth metal control after i dumped and refilled my intex round 5,000gal pool. i balanced my ph and alkalinity. now today i added shock and no brown water. (I stuck with all hth chemicals from walmart for now.) the only problem now is that my ph dropped after i added shock.
HTH support told me not to add any chemicals when i'm waiting my 4-5 days after using metal control. i did ask about algecide and they said no, do not add anything. i wasn't arguing b/c i didn't want brown water. i will add it now though b/c i'm passed that window. the only part i didn't like was that they said if i'm going to add more well water to pool, i have to let chlorine level drop to 0 again to add metal control. The instructions on the bottle of their products are misleading b/c they don't tell you everything. The bottle didn't tell me to wait 4-5 days or not to add any other chemicals. i do have to contact them again to see if i need to keep adding metal control weekly like the instructions on bottle tell me to. they are easy to access on their web page to do a live chat. I hope this will help some people out.

[CarlD]

About the only thing HTH told you that was correct, IMHO, is not to add algaecide.

You will find that their advice differs from ours. You cannot split the difference or you WILL get a mess. You will need to either follow HTH's advice to clear your pool, or follow ours, but not both.

[mbar]

I never wait for my chlorine level to drop before adding the metal out. Metal out will use up chlorine, but I always keep my levels up so that I don't get an algae bloom, because then you are in a loop - algae bloom, shock then get stains, get rid of stains with low chlorine, and go around again:eek: I just keep up with the pool by adding sequestering agent and keeping the water balanced. Once you get the water cleared, and the water balanced I will help you with the stains. Remember the most important thing is to have a sanitized balanced pool. You can swim in a pool that has stains, but not in one that is not sanitized.:)

[newpoolgirl]

today i woke up to brown water again. Called HTH and they said i must not of added enough Metal Control for it to take care of all the iron in my water. I did add what they told me. They said that I should take my water to pool store and get it tested, then they can tell me how much to add. Does anyone know if this is the correct advice b/c i'm about finished with my pool. I have been trying to swim in it since memorial day and haven't been able to get it clear. Please help.

[CarlD]

I hate to tell you this again, but you can either follow HTH's advice and the pool store's advice, or you can follow our advice. You cannot "cherry pick" because they will tell you to do stuff we will tell you not to do.

I said in my last post:


You will find that their advice differs from ours. You cannot split the difference or you WILL get a mess.

[PoolDoc]

Hi NewPoolGirl;

I'm going to answer several of your questions, with slightly different answers than what you've received. I'll try to explain why.


If your pool is green, and it's not algae, you can safely swim if your chlorine is OK. BUT, it may stain suits and such. (Unlike copper, iron does not, as far as I know, ever stain hair.)
Sequestrants and chelants NEVER, EVER remove metals from your pool.
The ONLY way to actually remove metals from your pool is to remove them physically, usually by filtration.


Lemme go through these each a bit.

Safety: As long as you can maintain a stable chlorine residual AND are sure the green is iron, not algae, the water is chemically safe to swim in. Remember, iron in the water doesn't hurt people: if it did, they couldn't drink it. It it's too cloudy to see the bottom, that's another kind of hazard of course, but it has nothing to do with sanitation.

Sequestration and chelation are chemical terms for processes that keep metals dissolved in water. In some cases, they can help RE-dissolve metals that have formed fresh stains. But, they NEVER remove anything. Chelated iron is STILL in your pool. *Sometimes*, chelation can 'hold' the iron in the pool, so it can be gradually filtered out (as the chelant breaks down) and filtered out.

Again, chelation and sequestration are always and only a band-aid. Sometimes it's good to have a band-aid, though, while the injury heals.

The ONLY way to remove metals from water is to do so physically, which means the metal has be converted to a form that will no longer dissolve in the water. So . . . when you stain your pool, you ARE removing metals from your pool water (though not from your pool!). When you stain your pipes, same deal.

But, when you stain your DE or the debris in your sand filter, or when you collect iron 'fluff' (precipitate) and then backwash it or clean it way . . . you have actually removed the metal from your water.

Filtration is ALWAYS part of any iron removal process. Unfortunately, the filters on Intex pools are seriously undersized and not well suited for this purpose. The 'pool pillow' idea is a good work around -- but see CAUTIONS below -- but all that's really being done is supplementing an inadequate filter. If you had an adequate DE filter, you could do the same job or better, with the pool filter. Unfortunately, "aboveground" filters are always undersized, and filters packaged with mini-pools like the Intex are the worst.

************* CAUTION!!****************
IT is NEVER safe to swim in a pool if a plugged in submersible pump is present!
************* CAUTION!!****************

Given the money you're spending on sequestrants, you may want to think about a different idea.

If you have the room, you might want to purchase a SECOND Intex pool (it can be smaller than the first) and use it to pre-treat your fill water. You can dump well water in it, circulate it, add chlorine (cal hypo OR bleach + baking soda) and raise the pH, wait, and then turn it off. If you keep the chlorine high (or dose it at night) you'll almost always force the iron into an insoluble form. If you turn the pump off, the iron will almost always settle out. Then, you can pump -- carefully -- the clear and metal free water into your swimming pool, while being careful not to disturb the mess on the bottom.

But, till you have that the pool pillow idea may help a lot. Just don't swim with a submerged pump.

PoolDoc

[newpoolgirl]

I did follow HTH's advice. Their final advice was to take my water to pool place to make sure I was adding enough Metal Control. Pool Doc, the pool place told me to upgrade to a sand filter. The 2 women working at the time said that they actually have intex pools(bought from walmart), but use sand filters for the same reasons you stated in previous post. None of them have iron in their water though.They sold me a product called Metal Treat. it contains: Tricurboxylic acid/Phophonbutane. My question is that if i actually add the correct amount will my water turn brown after I add my chlorine. I got my intex pool for free, so if I can't get it right soon, it's coming down. My other question is, if i start using a sand filter, will that take the brown that's in my water now out? If the filter is the trick, I'll go that route. For some odd reason, most of the pool places around me don't have a clue about what to tell me. I do come to this site for tips, then i was asking HtH about them. But, like I said, they didn't have any more advice for me.

[PoolDoc]

NewPoolGirl;

I realize that it's confusing when you first get a pool, to try to work out what to do. As is the case in other areas of life, the people who are genuinely trustworthy and knowledgeable don't walk around with a special halo that lets other folks distinguish them from the not so knowledgeable or trustworthy.

But, even so, you have to choose.

If you go to a two different doctors, with an small critter bite, and one says take doxycycline for a week and the other says to take aspirin for a week, you can't help yourself out by alternating with doxycycline one day and aspirin the next. You'll just end up with an untreated infection (if you have one) and intermittent analgesic relief from the aspirin.

But, that's sorta what you are doing here -- you are trying split the difference between HTH's advice and ours, even though they are not compatible. I'm sure it *feels* like doing this way gives you a better chance of success, but unfortunately that's not true.

It sounds like you've mostly followed HTH's advice, so, I would encourage you to stick that . . . and I would ask posters here including the mods to help her do so by not posting more advice in this thread, unless its directed to the ORIGINAL poster, "NewGuyJosh".

Sincerely,

PoolDoc

[Cardiac]

I had the same problem that Newguyjosh and Newpoolgirl had: cesspool brown water, as we have terrible well water. . We have an 18'x54" that holds approx 9,000gals. I have been reading everything in this forum, and it all worked! The water was brown right from the start, so I got busy filtering. Made up some filters out of old cotton towels and placed them in the skimmer. Used an iron and stain remover to isolate the iron. Kept changing the homemade filters and cleaning the cartridge on the Hayward filter. Did this for 24 hours and then shocked it with pool shock that came with the pool. Got a chlorine level of 15ppm. Added pH UP (Use Borax now), and Baking soda to get the pH and alkalinity in the ballpark. Hung a sock full of CYA next to the skimmer, and now my levels are awesome and the pool is crystal clear. Couldn't have done it with these folks.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.....

Bob