Frustrated

[staclear]

OK, I read a lot about the BBB, I want to try it. this is the 1st year my pool does not clear up after 7 days 24/7 running the filter sand.
I have 23000 Gls, in-ground Gunite pool. Water analysis: TAC 5, PH 7.4, TA 90, CH 200, CYA 55.
Brushed and vacuumed twice daily, but the water still milky. What I also noticed this year, every time i pour Granulate chlorine, 2 minutes later, white stuff surfaces to the top of the water and stay there for good half hour, what causing this? also how many gallons of bleach and how many box of borax I should use for 23000 gallons of water. Help Please . Thank you

[CarlD]

OK:

With your CYA you need to shock to 20ppm, and maintain your water at 5-10ppm--you are at the bottom of that.

Don't add Borax--your pH is 7.4 and that's perfect.

What is "Granulite" chlorine? Is it Cal-Hypo or Di-Chlor? The former could WELL leave white crystals that take a long time to dissolve. The latter adds CYA and you have more than enough.

Stick with bleach/Liquid Chlorine. Do not add anything else--your numbers are FINE!

[staclear]

Thanks Carl for quick reply. I'm using HTH Cal- Hypo. If the numbers are fine than why the water is still murky?. How many gallon of bleach i need to bring up the level to 10 ppm?

[CarlD]

Is it milky or murky? There's a big difference. Milky is due to suspended particles. Cal-Hypo is notorious for causing that. It actually should not affect the swim-ability of the water.

But if it's murky you are fighting something and you need to shock your pool as specified.

If it's milky, try using skimmer socks and adding some PolyQuat which can act as a clarifier as well as an algaecide.

[aylad]

also how many gallons of bleach should use for 23000 gallons of water.

In a 23000 gallon pool, it takes 1/2 gallon of 6% bleach to raise your Chlorine by 1 ppm...so if you wanted to go from 5 ppm to 20 (shock)you would add 7 1/2 gallons of bleach.

Janet

[staclear]

I guess I used the wrong terminology. Water hazel green and milky, can not see the bottom even in the shallow area. I used Fiber Clear, is that the same as PolyQuat?

[aylad]

Since the water has a greenish tint, that's a sure sign it needs to be shocked. Get your chlorine level up to 20 ppm and keep it there by testing/adding more chlorine as often as possible, but 2-3 times daily at a minimum. Keep it at 20 with the filter running 24/7 until the water turns cloudy blue and you do not lose any chlorine overnight (you know this by testing at night and again in the morning before the sun hits the pool). Then you can let your Cl drift back down to the 5-7 range but you'll have to kieep it there since your CYA is so high. I would recommend that you use bleach to accomplish this--it'll be much easier to figure out how much you need to add each time than with cal-hypo, plus you won't have to deal with the cal-hypo dust.

I don't think Fiber Clear is the same as PolyQuat--look at the ingredient label. If it says 60% poly--something, something, then it's PolyQuat. If not, it's not the same stuff.

Janet

[CarlD]

And if it's not PolyQuat, don't use it. PolyQuat is not a brand but rather a type of algaecide and clarifier--the only algaecide we recommend (besides, of course, chlorine).

You definitely have an algae bloom so it would make it easier for you to fight it to read up on algae here on Pool Forum. Meanwhile, since it IS an algae bloom, don't waste your time and money on PolyQuat--your daily backwashes will dump it out. Concentrate on hammering it with lots of liquid chlorine/bleach

[staclear]

yesterday, I dumped 6 Gallons of Bleach, tested Chlorine last night and this morning, did not lose much chlorine. While i vacuumed the white Cristal chunks floated to the top, WHAT IS THAT? I heard it's water mold, if so how to clear it up? i got picture but don't know how to upload to the forum .ps: water still cloudy, blueish light green.

[CarlD]

Test numbers, please!

[staclear]

Cl 10
ta 100
ph 7.6
cya 55

[aylad]

A FC of 10 is not high enough to clear up the green--with a CYA of 55 you need to have it consistently at 20 ppm. The more it drops, the longer it's going to take to clear up. Also, you said you "didn't lose much chlorine" overnight--how many ppm are you talking about in loss?

If the white in the bottom of the pool is crystals, then it's not water mold--I think it's probably undissolved cal-hypo that's been sitting on your liner all this time, since it's really difficult to pre-dissolve it. Vacuuming to waste or to filter is the only way you're going to get it out of the pool.

Get your chlorine back up to 20 and hang in there!

Janet

[staclear]

but every time I add chlorine it just sits at the top of the water. it does NOT dissolve slowly like in previous years. this is the first year that I am experiencing this problem

[staclear]

Slimy goey gunk float to the surface???????? I appreciate any feed back. it does happen every time I shock the pool using liquid bleach.
or even by adding anything else. What is it, what caused it, and how to get rid of it. Thank you

http://s804.photobucket.com/albums/yy323/jhamdan/Staclear/?action=view&current=0526001102.jpg&evt=user_media_share

[chem geek]

Unless your Calcium Hardnes (CH) is low, you shouldn't be using Cal-Hypo anyway. You didn't report your CH number -- do you have a good test kit such as the Taylor K-2006?

Cal-Hypo often has trouble dissolving well and can be pre-dissolved in a bucket of water first before adding it to the pool. However, it would probably be better for you to be using either chlorinating liquid or 6% unscented bleach instead.

[aylad]

I would switch to bleach, that will stop the problem of it floating to the top. What is your CH? It's entirely possible that the CH has gotten so high that it just won't dissolve anymore.

Are you pre-dissolving it in a bucket of water before adding it to the pool? Have you tried pre-dissolving and then adding it through the skimmer instead of straight to the pool?

Janet

Ah, Chemgeek, we posted at the same time.....but at least it's proof that the advice is solid!! :)

[aylad]

I have merged the pertinent info from the other two threads into this one, to make it easier to keep up with for the people attempting to help. Please continue on this thread! Thanks,

Janet

[staclear]

My CH is at 100. I HAVE been using liquid bleach for the past 4 days.

[aylad]

I can sense that you're really frustrated with this, and believe me, I understand why. We ARE trying to help!!

Is your filter capturing any of this stuff? How fast is your pressure rising and how often are you backwashing it? Have you tried the "adding DE to your sand filter" trick?

This is just an afterthought, but have you added any Baquacil, Soft Swim, Pristine Blue, or other PHMB chemicals to the pool? What did you add to it when you closed it before the winter?

Janet

[staclear]

thank you for your patience. yes this has been very frustrating. the SAC is 5 ppm. the ph is 7.2 , the PA is 110, SH is 180, the CYA is 40 . The chemicals I have used recently is liquid bleach and hydrofloc. Yes I did the DE to my sand filter with very very slight results in terms of water clarity. My Calcium hardness is 180 which is low. It should be anywhere from 200-400 from what I understand. I have backwashed it 3 times in the past 5 days. I have not added Baquacil, Soft Swim, Pristine Blue, or other PHMB chemicals to the pool.

[aylad]

When you added the Fiber Clear to your pool, how did you add it?

Janet

[staclear]

I had added 2 lbs on Thursday night to the skimmer.

[PoolDoc]

Hi All; Staclear;

One of the questions I've been asked hundreds of times over the years is, "How fast will this clear up?". (or turn blue, or what not). I was asked this on Friday PM, a week ago, by the general manager of the area's largest country club as we stood looking at his clear, but green, pool. His pool was opening the next morning, and he'd already gotten a nasty phone call from an anonymous member.

I didn't give him the answer he wanted. Instead, I gave him the answer that I've learned to give after 20 years of experience:
"I don't know!"*

The problem is that there are a bazillion reasons why pools behave the way they do. I've got a page somewhere, that I need to relocate and make available listing 100 real reasons why your pool may be cloudy. And, it's NOT a complete list.

Often, as the GM did, people asking this question have a deadline. Their pool is opening; they've got company coming; they've promised their wife or their kids . . . and they need to get it done NOW!

My job is to give them the answer they need:
"Sucks about the deadline, but your pool is not going to clean up as quickly as you want. What's more, trying to hurry almost always -- I can't think of an exception -- makes things worse."
StaClear, I'm sorry you are having problems. But the fact is your pool is almost certainly going to take much longer to clear than you hope.

You need to know that, and accept it. Why?

Because frantically trying to get it done NOW, will almost certainly make things worse. In fact, I'm guessing that that's already happened.

Most flocs can make things MUCH worse, if you don't use them EXACTLY right. Even when folks read and follow the long directions perfectly (and often they don't) sometimes the directions aren't long enough or complicated enough to cover the real difficulties of using those products. Why? Because if they were, nobody would buy them.

Flocs are products I used in the early part of my pool career. Once I had more knowledge and experience, I quit using them. Occasionally, they can help a little, but it's not worth the risk.

BTW, the stuff on the surface is just a characteristic of the finely ground HTH cal hypo and some flavors of pool water. I've seen it many times before. It's not a long term problem; it goes away after awhile; it can be avoided; but the way I've avoided it is too complicated to explain here.

Staclear, I made a list of everything you mentioned adding to the pool. Here's what I came up with:
?? quarts Hydro-Floc
6 gallons of bleach
?? lbs of HTH cal hypo
2 lbs of Fiber Clear

Also, several things are not clear to me about the history of the pool this spring?
Did you refill it?
Was it covered and slimy, and now you are trying to clear it up?
Did something else happen?
Be SURE to include any special additives you used. Many of them -- Metal OUT, Phos OUT, floccing chemicals, among others -- can create cloudy water that is nearly impossible to clear. A large overdose of Metal OUT, in particular, can create a calcium phosphonate suspension that can't be removed with sand filtration. (I did that once, about 18 years ago!)

There are several reasons a pool can be green. The country club pool mentioned above was green from iron in the fill water. So, you need to give the mods and others a timeline on your pool this spring.

Meanwhile, stop using ANYTHING except bleach! Your pool situation is already too complicated to figure out from a distance, and we need to simplify things.

Also, take Aylad's advice and go get a small sack of DE powder. But, what I have in mind is a little different than what I think she did. With your pump on high, dump all the DE in through a skimmer. Then, go watch your pool return, where the water re-enters the pool fastest. If you see a cloudy stream, you've got sand or mechanical problems with your filter that will have to be fixed.

So to sum up:
Give up on getting it clear soon.
Add only bleach for now.
Test your filter with DE
Post the results and a pool timeline here.
List ALL specialty chemicals used.


Oh, and one more: don't go back to the pool store that's selling you all this stuff. Get your DE at Lowes or Home Depot or some other place that won't sell you something that makes things worse!

PoolDoc

* PS. The country club pool was clear and blue Saturday AM -- fortunately, there wasn't too much iron in the water!

[staclear]

Thanks Pool Doc for the advise.
I have in ground Gunite,23000 GLs. mesh covered in the winter,was opened last Friday. I use the same process i have done in the last 10 years. Water color was dark green, 1st day I used 4 lb of shocks and a 1/2 gallon of 30% algaecide, 48oz of acid to lower PH, when I dumped the shock in the water, 2 minutes later the white gooey stuff floated to the surface, my thinking was because of heavy Algae, the chlorine shock surfaced to the top.
I switched to liquid bleach, using 24 Qts every day, with that, also the Gooey white stuff surfaced to the top. I used about 4 lbs of filter clarifier which I used for the last 10 years and the pool cleared up by next day, not this time. I repeated the process again while still using bleach, water got blue but no t clear, Yesterday I used 1 Qt of Hydro Floc, 2 minutes later the white Gooey stuff surfaced again, which the label on the Floc bottle suggest this might happen, I ran the pump for an hour, shut it off, 12 hours later I vacuumed to waste, but the white stuff would not go away and remained on top.

PoolDoc, as I mentioned this is the 1st time I experience this kind of problem, the pool used to clear up with in 4 days with pump running 24/7.

I will take your advise and DE test the filter, use liquid bleach, and monitor it for the next week, hopefully the kids can swim next week end.

[chem geek]

The link referred to by Ben is 100 Reasons for Cloudy Swimming Water (http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/cloudy.html).

[PoolDoc]

Thanks, Richard.

StaClear, pools vary from year to year for all sorts of reasons. Even if it never happened before, it happened this year. If I was at pool side at your home, and could check everything out, I might give more specific advice. But, I'm not there, so I can't.

Most likely, it's going to take awhile to clear things up. Just follow the list, and report what you find.

Best wishes!

PoolDoc

[staclear]

40% Improvement form yesterday, the water is blue and clear in the shallow end (4ft deep).
with water chemistry as follow:
FAC-3
PH- 7.2
TA- 110
CH- 180
CYA- 40

The problem now is, can not hold chlorine every day I pour 24 Qt of 6% Bleach at night time, 12 hours later FAC reading is .5, what can be done/ Should I raise CYA level?

[Watermom]

No. Your cya is great at 40. You need to try to add chlorine more often instead of waiting 12 hours between doses. A pain, I know. But, necessary if you are going to defeat this problem. The more times a day you can test and shock it back up, the quicker you are gonna clear this pool. Glad to hear of the big improvement. Keep at it.

[chem geek]

It is normal for chlorine to be consumed as it clears the pool since it is getting used up breaking down what you currently see is making the pool cloudy. Even after it gets fairly clear, you may still have a higher-than-normal chlorine demand, but this should return to normal in a day or two after it's clear.

The key is to MAINTAIN the shock level of chlorine until three things happen: 1) the pool is crystal clear, 2) the overnight FC drop is <= 1 ppm and 3) the CC measures <= 0.5 ppm.

[staclear]

Slowly but surely!!! The color of water is improving . I'm shocking it twice a day, thanks for all of your help, the only thing remain is to figure out how to hold chlorine in the water longer.
CYA is steady at 40, PH 7.4- with $20 of bleach every day, is getting too costly!!!! any idea what to do beside patience?

[staclear]

Crystal clear!!!! after 10 days, a lot of bleach, a couple handful of DE in the sand filter, pump running 24/7. This forum taught me a lot. What helped my pool the most, NOT to backwash frequently and let the filter do it's job.

[aylad]

Yay!!!!!!

Happy swimming!

Janet

[Watermom]

GREAT!! So glad you got it clear. Now, go swim!!! You've earned it!