New Pool questions - introduction

[dmarsh70]

Hi Everyone,

I would like to thank everyone for all the info on this forum! Very good stuff.

I am having my first pool buillt down here in sunny Florida. Jacksonville area. Anyways they should be putting on the marcite/pebble stones today! I am told they have to come back and acid wash the next morning - and then I can fill it up!l

I read the posts aboout bleach being too high. Not sure if this is a good price, but Publix has bleach on sale - 96 oz for $1.50 each. It's a 6 % solution and the chemical is the only thing listed on the ingredients. So I am hoping it's good stuff as I bought 10 gallons. I also bought 5 boxes of Borax and 2 bottles of stablilizer. I already have 2 gallons of Muriatic Acid left over from doing a light acid wash to my deck. Any other start up things I need to get?

I bought a Color Pro 7 test kit. I know that's not the board's first choice and I haven't read too much about LaMotte, the manufacturer on this board. However I am basically colorblind and I need the digital read out.

Moving on - because of this board I decided that I can maintain my pool myself without freaking out - even though I am a complete newbie...

Here are some initial questions I have - and I appreciate any response!

First pool stats:
Concrete free form pool about 29 x 14. 3.5 at shallow 6 feet deep end. About 15000 gallons.
2 foot waterfall
Hayward 2 speed Max Flo II pump
Hayward Cartridge Filter
Pentair in-line chrlorinator

I dont have any water in there yet obviously so I don't have any water #'s. Ok:

When the pool is first filled the pool builder said the marcite will raise the PH up alot and i should run the filter pump on for about 48 hours before I do any pool chemicals.

Any comments on this?

I also read that the waterfall will raise the PH up a little bit as well.

I am planning on using bleach as my chlorine source:
Can I add that directly to the skimmer or in the pool right from the bottle?

I understand that using the 3" tabs in the inline chlorinator raises CYA and that's not a good thing (thanks again PF!). However I do leave town alot and sometimes its for several days at a time. With that said I am going to have to use the chlorinator at some point.

So my question is assuming that once I start adding chemicals to balance the pool - is it ok to have my CYA on the low end? Say 30. Knowing that when I leave town i'll be raising it up with the chrlorine tabs?

Assuming I brush the new marcite every day for a week or two at first to move the fresh "stuff" off the marcite and all that - how long generally should I wait to expect the PH to stabilize?

My pool builder dropped off 1 bag of shock - in case he wasnt around (go figure). Pretty much stated that maybe after 24 hours of circulation just drop in a bag of shock and that will start getting the water clean and ready.

So, if you we're building a new pool and we're experienced (like so many of you are) - how would you handle all this? I mean what would be the first thing you did or the first things you would do the first 1 - 3 weeks of pool ownership to make sure you had clear, clean water?

I promised my 10 year old daughter that we would have her birthday party here at my house (2 weeks from now) and she is SO excited. Just want to make sure I do this right!

Sorry for all the questions and, again, thanks in advance!

David

[CarlD]

I'll try to answer a few questions.

You've actually got a pretty good handle on the chemicals you'll need. With your pool you'll probably also need a calcium source: Cal-Hypo (which chlorinates) or calcium flakes. And you'll need baking soda to raise Total Alkalinity.

I don't know about running your pool for 48 hours with no chemicals--I'm not knowledgeable enough about the concrete process, but I'm GUESSING the builder wants to get that pH up to neutralize the acid wash...but that's a wild "amazing" guess.

However, you are very correct that the pool itself and the waterfall will raise your pH constantly. You'll probably find you use the Muriatic acid a lot more than the Borax.

Your bleach price sounds OK--$1.50 for 3/4 gallon of 6% isn't too bad--I think--that's $2/gal. You can add it through the skimmer or directly into the return stream. With your pool, adding it pretty much anywhere won't hurt but the skimmer or return stream gets it into the water fastest.

You WILL need stabilizer in the Sunshine State. Heck, we need up here in the frozen north of New Jersey and Pennsylvania (Poconos lives there). ;)

But remember this rule: It's ALWAYS better to add less than you need of something than too much. You can always add more. Except chlorine. All too much means is you have to wait a little for it to come back down.

Testing: I don't know about LaMotte's machine tester, but, even though we do NOT recommend test strips, Lamotte and Hach make the ONLY ones that should be used. If you suffer from color blindness, strips will do you no good. However, you should be able to use the FAS-DPD chlorine test as the water goes from pink/red tinted to absolutely clear when you reach the Free Chlorine level. The CYA/stabilizer test doesn't use color but uses the cloudiness of the water. Unfortunately the pH, T/A and hardness tests use color change. The latter two tho may be drastic enough for you to see the change. For pH, your machine or a helper may be all you can do.

Now on to Tri-Chlor pucks. It's almost sacrilege to say this, but with a NEW concrete-type pool, it's OK to use pucks, for a limited time. Why? Think about your needs: 1) Chlorine 2) pH lowering 3) Stabilizer/CYA.

Pucks, while adding chlorine are HIGHLY acidic and add lots of stabilizer--You need these anyway. But you MUST watch your pH and CYA levels and stop using them when you hit your target level (especially of CYA--I don't think the pucks by themselves will fully control the high pH).

But if you decide to go that route, do NOT buy "double-acting" or "plus algaecide" pucks. They usually contain copper and you do NOT want the troubles copper can bring. Get the simple ones--they may say "Stabilized" but the only active ingredient should be Tri-Chlor.

However, You absolutely do NOT, NOT need to use pucks. You can do EVERYTHING you need to do with Bleach, Muriatic Acid, and the stabilizer you have--and it will be far cheaper than the pucks.

Good luck, welcome and ENJOY SWIMMING!!!!!:D

[Watermom]

To answer a couple more of your questions:

Yes, you can add bleach slowly into the skimmer (while the pump is running, of course,) or slowly pour it in front of a return jet (again while the pump is running).

And, also yes to running your cya on the low end knowing that you will need to use some triclor pucks while you are away. Just keep a close eye on the cya so it doesn't build up to levels higher than you want.

Welcome to the forum!

[dmarsh70]

CarlD / Watermom,

Thanks so much for your quick response. I really appreciate it. I know what I do thus far ONLY because of this board and nobody else. Suffice to say I trust you guys more than pool builders :)

I will head out today and pick up some calcium flakes and or Cal-Hypo. Wanted to check out the local store anyways.

Yaeh the Lamottes Tester I have is not test strips. It has regeants and instead of looking for colors you put it in a little machine and it gives a digital read out.

They are mixing up plaster now! (yay) so should be testing this all out tomorrow I hope!

I will also pick up a small amount of "normal" tri-chlor pucks as well - until I get it all going.

I never really compared the bleach vs chlorine prices that much - may almost be a wash in some cases, but the CYA level thing seems to be the root of a lot of problems and I want to make sure that is in check before I ever start.

Amazing reading some of the pool supply websites - nobody mentions how this stuff raises CYA levels - but feel free to come in with a free water sample.

Wow I guess I'm catching on quick.

I am not really all that happy about running for 48 hours myself. I really am not sure if the pool guy is sure. He seems to always be in a rush... So I may go 12 - 20 hours on pump - full speed to get some of that initial stuff out - then start testing and adding.

I would imagine PH would be the first order of business. I assume (like you said) it will be high - so I'll hit it with Muriatic, start chrlorinating. Check and adjust TA, calcium, and let it roll.

One more final question (at least for now)

I do have a solar cover. I know - in Florida do I need it? Who knows, but I got it so I am wondering if there are any issues keeping it on almost immediately.

Can you add chemicals with the cover on and leave it on? I understand if I am "shocking" the higher concentration may degrade the solar cover so I'll have it off. Other than that is it ok to leave it on?

Thanks again CarlD and Watermom!!

[CarlD]

Again, I'm not a builder and there are some initial things we here about and our professional members confirm that seem counter-intuitive. This may be one of them: running for 48 hours w/o chems. Plus, if he warranties his work, you want to follow his directions so he can't claim you violated the warranty and therefore he's not responsible.

A solar cover hold in heat and can also reduce chlorine loss particularly due to evaporation. If you get a high end solar cover and do everything right you'll get a full 3 to 4 years out of it. If you buy a cheaper one and aren't as careful, it will only last 3 seasons and maybe a little bit more.....;) Been there, done that. Go ahead and add chlorine as you need it.

[dmarsh70]

Thanks again Carl - good point - better do what he says for warranty sake.

I did buy a better than average cover - so thanks for that.

One last question:

I just went to my local pool supply company - I dont know if I can mention the name so I wont.

They have liquid chrlorine in 2.5 gallon jugs for $4.79 it's 10.8 percent. The guy behind the counter agreed it's just like bleach and many folks use it !! I was shocked!

Does that price seem pretty reasonable?

David

[aylad]

Hi, and welcome to the forum!!

Watermom and CarlD have gotten you off to a great start--a new pool is really exciting and it'll be SO much easier to maintain since you've done your homework and seem to have a good grasp on the chemical requirements!

10.8% LC at $4.79 works out to less than $2/gallon for the 10% stuff, which is a much better price than I pay at Wally World for 6%--just make sure that it's actually 10%! The higher percentage stuff tends to degrade much faster than the 6%, and if it has degraded, then it's not such a great price! CarlD has posted somewhere a way to test for the actual percentage of chlorine in your jug--I'll look and see if I can find it and post the link here.

Congrats on the new pool!


Janet

[CarlD]

Yeah, I think if you pour five 2liter soda bottles full of tap water into a 5 gal bucket to get 10 liters and add 1 cc of your chlorine to the water and stir, you can then measure it as if it was in the pool....I THINK that's it. It's the same as adding 1 liter of bleach to 10,000 liters of pool water. Or adding 1 gallon to 10,000 gallons. It was an eyedropper measure or so. Whatever 1/10,000th of 10 liters is.

[dmarsh70]

WOw you guys are just awesome! Thanks so much. THe pool place said they fill them everyday - in fact they we're putting new ones on the shelf as I got there. But we'll find out soon enough - if the poolcaluclator shows me what to add and it's not close I know its degraded.. I'll test the first week with bleach and the pool version bleach to see if it's close. I hope it is.

SO this is what I did. I took water out of the hose and tested it as i really wanted to learn how to test with the digital read out and check it all out. I do NOT have a test for CC - but I think someone said its a combination of FC and TC.

So here are the readings just out of the hose:
FC: 1.39 (I guess they add chlorine to city / county water)
TCL: 1.40 (Total Chlorine -- is this total CC?? little confused here. Is my CC: 2.88 and thereby I need to shock?
PH: 7.6
ALK: 84
CH: 92
CYA: LOW reading - I was expecting this as I dont see why they would have CYA in city water.

So it appears Carl was accurate - I will need calcium, and Stabilizer. The ALK should be cool I do believe and i'll probably have to drop the PH down with muriatic the first week or two.

If someone could comment on the Chlorine levels I would appreciate it.

Also, I realize the numbers will be totally different when I get 15K gallons of water circulating in fresh plaster. I know the PH will go through the roof.

I was talking to the plaster guy today. He said he thinks I misunderstood waiting 48 hours to add chemicals. He said he would certainly let it run for several hours to filter stuff out - and I may even need to wash the filter once a week at first - however he said once it's filtered for several hours - take your readings and start working on ph and sanitizer, assuming you know how to. Told him I spent HOURS researching..,.

Guys and gals you are all great. I appreciate your continued support. As soon as I am a member out of probation (for lack of a better term) I will post some pics of HOPEFULLY sparkly clean water!

Thank you all for the WARM WELCOMES! Very nice. You are all invited to my pool open party :)

David

[Watermom]

FC + CC= TC so your CC is only .01. You are looking good!

[dmarsh70]

Thanks Watermom!!!

[CarlD]

To me a CC of .01 is statistical noise. Your FC and TC are the same and your CC is EFFECTIVELY 0.0 .

Yeah I wouldn't worry about your T/A at that level. In fact, for that CYA level, your FC level is good--but you need more CYA.

[dmarsh70]

Well if all goes good we should fill the pool today. My irrigation guy hooked up a little hook-up line so I can turn on the irrigation and fill it in about 4 hours. He said it's the same water so you may as well do it faster.

Anyways off this morning to buy a 2.8 litre bottle of Liquid Stabilizer so it gets right in there. Then i'll test CYA (24 hours?) and then add the granular in a sock. I used Poolcalculator and the 2.8 litres of Liquid Stabilizer should get me to about 18. Still a little low but there may already be some in there.

My LaMotte Color Q kit says it tests from "0" but a reading of "LOW" well not sure if its really zero or not. So I figured put in just the liquid and at least get it up there to a readable level.

My pool builder is out of town so he over the phone told me how to prime the pump and fill it. Said to add some shock to it and try to adjust the PH if I know how - told him I did. Also told him he can come right down here and take his inline chlorinator off as I really dont see me needing it (haha).

I do have a question though.

Skimmer question: under my skimmer basket I have two plugs. One has an "H" on it, the other is blank.

Do I need to have one or both of these open for the skimmer to bring water into the pump? Will it hurt anything if I keep them off and turn on the pump this afternoon? Probably a stupid question.

I would have asked him yesterday but he lost service when driving.

I also have a "well drain pump" under my pool so my main drains have holes in the bottom (which obviously have to be plugged before i fill) but they got filled up with aggragate so it wouldnt drain so I spent 2 hours digging as much out as I could to drain it - then decided I should look into the skimmer (it was NASTY) and after cleaning out all the sand and gunk I noticed the 2 plugs....

Any input on these??

Thanks again for all of your responses!

[aylad]

I can't answer your plumbing questions, but just wanted to throw a caution in there about the stabilizer....most people try to keep theirs in the 20-40 range. Remember that it is very slow to register (not sure about the liquid type, I've never used it) and it's easy to overshoot it. Caution is the key! THat being said, once you get your CYA into the 20-30 range, you can get an idea of how much chlorine loss you have daily, and you can always up the CYA if you feel you're losing it too quickly. I'm in Louisiana, and my pool is in full sun all day, and I find that I lose a lot less chlorine if I keep my CYA up in the 70-80 range. That's extremely high by most standards, but it's the optimal range for my pool.

You might want to reconsider taking out the chlorinator--with the waterfall in your pool, you're going to likely fight a pH rise, and while you still need to raise your CYA, the chlorinator is the ideal solution, since trichlor adds chlorine, drops pH, and adds CYA. It's also really nice for use while on vacation.

Janet

[dmarsh70]

Hi Janet,

Thanks so much for the input. I was joking about taking out the chlorinator :) I am keeping it for when I do leave town. You make some good points and that helps.

I dont' want to overshoot on my CYA.

I am assuming if it's low - say 20 - then I wont technically hurt anything except burn more chrlorine. Right?

If thats the case I am going to add just 1 gallon of liquid stabilizer as it supposed to get "in there" very quick. Then I'll wait a few days and add a little more depending on where it is.

To be honest this board has kind of scared me, but in a good way. I definitly don't want my CYA over 100. I hear you on the 70 - 80 on the CYA - and we're basically in the same climate so mine probaly needs to be higher.

Because I do leave town once a month, my plan was to "save" the CYA for when I use the chrlorinator when I leave.

I suppose you can see me like a new "mom" - although I am male (ha ha) I don't nothing wrong happening to my baby. So I am probably a bit on the paranoid side..

With the waterfall and the fresh marcite I was counting on fighting PH for awhile. I know I can turn off the waterfall and all that. I plan on brushing and testing everyday especially for PH.

The builders marcite left about 6 gallons of muriatic so I put it in my garage.. I paid for it so I may as well keep it. I have a feeling i'll be using that more than the borax !!

Check back later after I get it all turned on !!

-David

[aylad]

The builders marcite left about 6 gallons of muriatic so I put it in my garage.. I paid for it so I may as well keep it. I have a feeling i'll be using that more than the borax !!



Me too! ;)

Janet

[CarlD]

Where are you getting "Liquid Stabilizer"? We have all been waiting to see this stuff and feel like the part of the country that hasn't gotten the latest movie yet!

If you have it and it's a legitimate source of CYA, why use crystals? Meanwhile I have a stocking full of CYA hanging in my pool to get my stabilizer up from, oh, something like ZERO! (my wife donated it--the stocking, not the CYA).

[dmarsh70]

Hi CarlD

I agree if it's good i'll onlly use it.

I found it at my local store where I found the liquid bleach. They only had 1 gallon buckets but they can order 2.5 gallon buckets.

I must haver read here or on another forum that the liquid wasn't well known thats why I figured I would try a little first - and see what it does.

[Watermom]

What do the ingredients say on the label? Any other additives other than 100% cyanuric (or isocyanuric) acid? Can you tell us the brand name?

[dmarsh70]

Hi Watermom,

Here is the manufacturer and label info:
Natural Chemistry: Instant Conditioner
Monosodium cyanrate monohydrate 35%
Percentage of constituents ineffective as spray adjuvants 65%

Let me know if this is good or not. I mean it did raise my CYA from LOW up to about 25

[Watermom]

OK. We have been discussing this Instant Conditioner and apparently it's a go! Chem Geek has done some checking up on this stuff (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=8438%22) and says it is just as good as granular cya except about twice as expensive. Most of us hadn't seen this product until this year so it now gives us another option for cya.

[dmarsh70]

cool beans! I think i am staying at the 30 level as long as i can!