blue cloudy, soapy water

[pooldufus]

Hi, I am a newbie to the forum. I have read through the posts to try to solve my problem but it still exists. I have blue cloudy water that has a soapy looking residue on top. While it is always present, it increases when the SWG is on. Yesterday pool store tests are as follows:

FC=4 then shocked to 16 last night (added 5 gal 6% bleach)
TC=4
PH=7.6
TA=90
CH=90
CYA=50
Salt=3900
21000 gal vinyl inground with sand filter, zodiac lm3 swg.

I intially had green water on the pool opening 3 weeks ago, but shocked with bleach. I read that it could still have algae so I continue to shock. I shocked to 16 last night and am running the SWG to maintain. I installed a new cell last weekend and it is working. I have been running pump 24/7 for last week or so with no real clearing. We've had 2 large rains in the past week here in central Arkansas. I've only added salt, bleach, and baking soda to get levels right. So far I've resisted the pool store's advice to add fiber clear, foam out, and clarifier, but my resistance is weakening. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for any help.

[aylad]

Hello, and welcome to the forum!!

Your numbers all look good, and if you've been running your filter 24/7 I'm not sure why you're not seeing the water clear.....is your pressure rising? How frequently are you having to backwash?

Also, have you added any algaecide to the water, or is there something that may have washed into the pool during the rains that might cause the foaming? Usually filtering will eventually remove the foaming, but sometimes it can take awhile. I don't have any experience with the SWGs, so hopefully one of the SWG gurus around here will be here soon to address that, but I do know that when I refill my horse's water troughs with a hose from well water, the water does foam at first--think it has something to do with the amount of air that is also pumped through the system. Since you notice it worsening when the SWG is on, I wonder if the foaming could be air bubbles?

Janet

[pooldufus]

I backwash when the pressure increases 10 psi or so which is about once a day. It seems to be clearing until I turn on the SWG, then it foams up again. This was happening even before I replaced the cell. I would say that the foam appears to be lessening each time but it is hard to tell. I thought about air bubbles because the foam dissipates after I turn the SWG off. I found a slight leak in a fitting in the return pipe between the filter and SWG. I will dab some rain/shine glue on it when I can shut the system down for a few hours. It is possible that could be the culprit. I used algaecide late last summer but not this year. We had so much rain last fall and winter that I have pumped out approximately 2 feet of water prior to opening. I continue to add bleach to keep the chlorine up (although my tester only goes up to 5). The pool walls don't feel slimy and the foam doesn't feel soapy. I can detect a slight chlorine smell but not as bad as last weekend. I can only see about 18 inches or so deep into the pool. We did find a turtle and it took 3 days to catch him because of the cloudiness (turned on the lights at night to capture him). I also added a skimmer sock to catch small particulates. I will continue the bleach and 24/7 filtering. Thanks for the welcome and the help.

[CarlD]

OK, let me check in. With a CYA of 50 and a pool that's not clear you need to maintain the shock level of 15ppm for your FC. It's dropping on you, so it's being consumed which means you are still fighting something. You'll need to be checking and adding chlorine to keep it at 15ppm two to three times a day.

Carl

[pooldufus]

Here are the latest facts:
FC is very high (>10).
Ph=8.2 and rising
foam/air bubbles are still present especially when running SWG
I have used over 40 gal of bleach in the past 2 weeks. At what point do I cut my losses and drain?

How do you determine the 15 level? Is there a test kit that measures that high? The level must be high because the color is orange instead of yellow in the test kit I have (the worthless test strips even indicate it is 10+).

I am beginning to think the foam may be air bubbles. My ph is rising. It was around 7.6 yesterday then 7.8 last night then 8.2 this morning. I think I read that aeration can raise the ph level. Do I need to add acid now to lower ph or just continue to filter? I have been running the SWG on and off to help with the chlorine levels but maybe I need to turn it off completely until the chlorine level holds. Will this amount of bleach cause the foam or air bubbles?

I am at my wit's end but I really appreciate your help

[aylad]

My bet is on air bubbles causing the foam. If it were my pool, I would turn the SWG off for now, and see if that eliminates the bubbles altogether. It would also give you a chance to fix the leak.

Don't give up on the pool yet--you'd be amazed what a lot of bleach and some patience will do for a pool!!! Keep your chlorine at 15, testing and adding more as needed as many times a day as possible--the more consistently your chlorine is up, the faster it will clear.

There are test kits that will measure FC up to 50 ppm--the Taylor K2006 is a good one that will measure all you would need. Leslie's also carries a similar kit. What you want is a drop-based kit that will measure free chlorine, combined chlorine, CYA, pH, ta, and CYA. The ones that do all that accurately are a little pricey, but they will save you hundreds of dollars in the long run and are well worth it. In the meantime, you can use CarlD's "shotglass method" to estimate your higher chlorine levels....get your regular pool sample and dilute it 1:2 with non-chlorinated (distilled or tap that's been dechlorinated) water. Mix the sample, test as usual, then multiply your result x 2. This will give you a ballpark chlorine level for now. If you need to go higher, then mix it 1:3 and multiply the result x 3. You lose a little accuracy everytime you dilute, but again, it'll give you a good ballpark idea of what your chlorine is.

Your pH may or may not be as high as your testing shows--normally when your chlorine is above 10, your pH is going to test falsely high. However, you already know that aeration raises pH, and if I'm correct in thinking that your foaming is caused by air bubbles, then that is certainly a cause for your pH rise quickly. You'll know if that's the culprit by turning off the SWG and seeing if the pH stabilizes, even with your chlorine levels that high.

Hang in there--I know patience is hard to come by when you're looking at a pool that won't clear, but don't give up on it yet!!

Janet

[pooldufus]

Janet, I believe you're right on the air bubbles. I am a little confused about why the bubbles/foam are higher when the SWG is on since it is installed in line on the return piping. The return water runs across the SWG cell either way. I understand it produces bubbles during the chlorination process, but it still confuses me unless the cloudiness is also due a piping leak.

I tried the shotglass method and came up with a chlorine level of around 20. I will maintain that and start looking for a better test kit. The pool is still cloudy as I can only see about 24" deep. The pump pressure hasn't moved since last night's backwash so it doesn't appear to be picking up anything. I will continue to filter 24/7. Thanks for the advice, it gives me hope.

[aylad]

You might want to try CarlD's trick of adding a handful of DE to your sand filter in case the cloudiness is caused by something too fine for the sand to catch. He recommends that you add just enough DE to raise your pump pressure by no more than 1 psi--and that rise sometimes takes a little while to register--and then see if it helps. The DE will wash out when you backwash, so if you add too much, you can backwash it out and start over.

Keep filtering, keep the Cl high, and keep us posted!
Janet

[pooldufus]

I will give that a try if I can find DE locally. I've about decided to change the filter sand (starting the fourth year on this). It probably is needed so it won't hurt. At least I'll be able to dismiss that as a possibility. The pool seems to be clearing although at a very very slow rate. It could have residual algaecide or suntan lotion, etc from last year. I ordered the TF100 test kit today so I can get better numbers on high chlorine levels. I will continue to shock and filter. Thanks for the encouragement.

[Watermom]

It won't hurt to replace the sand, but it probably isn't necessary. I'm on my 10th year with the same sand and I know there are others with even longer time frames with their sand. You should be able to find DE locally. I think Janet even said that she found it in her local Wal-Mart. Certainly a pool store will have it and maybe Lowe's or Home Depot? Buy the smallest container you can which will most likely be 10 lbs. Good luck. Keep us posted how it is going.

[pooldufus]

Just an update on my pool. The water is slowly clearing. I still can't see the bottom drain but it won't be long before I can. I have tried to seal any leaks but think the pump basket lid o-ring is bad. At some point the pump filtered enough of the fine particles out and the SWG can now run without producing the foam/air bubbles. If I had thought of it earlier I would have ran the recirc and SWG to see if it foamed the same way it did on filter and SWG. I suspect it wouldn't and that the culprit was a chemical or something in the filter media that has since been eliminated. Anyway, the system seems to be working correctly. The water is clearing and swimming is imminent. I appreciate all the advice and encouragement from each of you. This forum is a great help because, as always, I am just a pool dufus :).

[Watermom]

I appreciate all the advice and encouragement from each of you. This forum is a great help because, as always, I am just a pool dufus :).
Glad to hear that things are improving! This forum IS a great help because of all of the collective knowledge from all the members. By the way -- we are ALL "pool dufuses*" at times, no matter how smart we think we are!

*Somehow, I don't think the word "dufuses" is in the dictionary. Whatdya think??:p

[pooldufus]

I believe dufuses or doofuses may be right. I couldn't find any DE so I gave up and changed the sand. The sand level was low and I removed all doubt about the sand being the problem. I don't think the sand was the problem but it didn't hurt. I will eventually find some DE and use it to remove the fine particles that I suspect is causing the cloudiness. I used the down time to glue suspected leaking joints. I also got the chance to spin the filter around so that I can access the drain without having to climb over the pumps. I got the new TF100 test kit and tested this morning. Between the heavy rains and inoperation, levels are a little out of whack. Pool is still cloudy but not foaming.
Levels are: FC=1 CC=1 PH=7.8 TA=110 CYA=40 TH=60 SALT=4000

At this point, my CC is a little high and my FC is low. I need to lower the CC and TA (which means lowering the PH). Can I do this all at once or do I just need to shock first? I plan to raise the CYA once I get TC right.

[Watermom]

Actually, your TA is ok at 110. Go ahead and shock. Try and test a couple or three times a day and each time raise it back up to shock level, which for a pool with cya of 40 would be 15 ppm. When you CC is less than 0.5 (ideally 0) and your chlorine level isn't decreasing more than 1 ppm overnight, and the water is clear, then you can let the cl drift back down. But, with a cya of 40, you need to maintain the cl between 3 and 6 all the time.

[pooldufus]

SUCCESS!!!!!!!! The water finally cleared. As all of you said, the drop based test kit is really the only way to go. If you can't get accurate test data, you can't correct the problem. Once again, I appreciate all your help, advice, and encouragement.

the pool dufus

[aylad]

Yay!! So glad to hear your work paid off, and thanks for the update!! Happy Swimming!!!!! :cool:

Janet

[Watermom]

Excellent! I hope all the other people who have current threads about cloudy water (and there are quite a few!) read your post and see that our advice really does work! You just have to follow it consistently and have patience. I also think it will give those other pool owners some hope that their pools are gonna clear up, too. Just like yours did. Good job!