Stabilizer ?

[hannadock]

Should I get my stabilizer up before trying to add bleach?
My PH is around 7.2 and alka around 30. Presently my pool has algae on the entire bottom. I just took the cover off today. I put 3.75 lbs stabilizer into skimmer. I have a 20x40 inground with around 36000 gals. thanks

[Watermom]

No. I wish you hadn't added that stabilizer yet. Actually, we usually advise people to forget about the stabilizer while they are fighting algae. While you are trying to clear your water, you are most likely going to be vacuuming and probably backwashing often. (Backwash whenever the filter pressure goes up by 8-10 psi over your clean filter pressure.) Stabliizer (cya) dissolves really slowly in your filter -- maybe even up to a week. So, if you backwash in that week, you end up throwing out the stabilizer.

[polyvue]

Should I get my stabilizer up before trying to add bleach?
My PH is around 7.2 and alka around 30. Presently my pool has algae on the entire bottom. I just took the cover off today. I put 3.75 lbs stabilizer into skimmer. I have a 20x40 inground with around 36000 gals. thanks
Alkalinity seems a bit low... but I agree with Watermom -- fighting algae is the priority. The good news is that 3.75 lbs of dry stablizer should only increase CYA ~ 12 ppm in your 36K gallon pool. But that means you'll need a bit more chlorine to defeat the algae. Refer to the Best Guess CYA Chart (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=365) to determine the right amount of chlorine. Used in conjunction with the Pool Calculator (http://www.poolcalculator.com/) it's almost easy.

[hannadock]

So forget the chemicals for now and vaccumn?

[Watermom]

Yes. Other than the bleach. Concentrate only on fighting algae now. Other things can wait. Try and test your water several times a day and each time, hit it with some more bleach. The sustained chlorine level is what kills algae.

BTW -- in case others are reading this post. If the PH had been below 7.0, we would have not waited to work on raising that. Low ph is acidic and can damage a pool. But, since the ph in this case is 7.2, that isn't an issue. All other chemical needs are not a priority right now.

[chuck9997]

I am in the start up process now.. first day. I have added bleach.. and more bleach. Been checking the Chlorine level.. Had it up to about 15ppm.. a few hours later checked and it was at 4ppm. Is it normal to drop that much in a few hours?

I failed to check the PH before adding the bleach.. can I still get a true PH reading with CL level high? Right now the test says PH is over 8.. but the CL is high.

In past years... never had any problems getting the Chloring up.. and maintaining it.

[chem geek]

I failed to check the PH before adding the bleach.. can I still get a true PH reading with CL level high? Right now the test says PH is over 8.. but the CL is high.
A high chlorine level can lead to a falsely high pH reading so you'll have to wait for the FC to get below 10 ppm before getting an accurate pH reading. The chlorine itself temporarily raises the pH, but the high FC level also bleaches out one of the two dyes in the pH test causing it to typically be misread too high. Taylor talks about that in their Pool & Spa Water Chemistry booklet:

FALSE READINGS: high levels of chlorine (usually >10 ppm) will quickly and completely convert phenol red into another pH indicator (chlorphenol red). This new indicator is a dark purple when the water's pH is above 6.6. Unfortunately, some pool operators mistake the purple color for dark red and think the pool water is very alkaline and wrongly add acid to the pool.

When a sanitizer level is not extreme, only some of the phenol red may convert to chlorphenol red. However, purple+orange (for example, pH 7.4) = red. This error is more subtle as no purple color is observed and the operator does not suspect that a false high pH reading has been produced. Some operators neutralize the sanitizer first by adding a drop of chlorine neutralizer (i.e. sodium thiosulfate). However, thiosulfate solutions have a high pH and, if heavily used, may cause a false higher sample pH.
The Taylor pH test has some special chlorine neutralizers in it such that they don't affect the pH very much, but even these don't work at very high FC levels so generally you can't trust the pH test above around 10 ppm FC.

Richard

[Watermom]

Chuck -- if you continue to need some help with your pool, why don't you go ahead and start a new thread of your own. It is best to do that instead of tacking on to somebody else's. Sometimes trying to help work on two different pools within one thread gets too confusing to follow. Glad to see you back around the forum!

[hannadock]

Thank goodness I finally got back to be able to post. Ok. I have added 18 188oz bottles of bleach and scrubbing the floor and walls. 30 X 40 pool with around 36000 gallons+. Dumb question, I can't see what I am vacuuming. Is all this bleach suppose to clear up the water so I can? I started vacuuming on waste but I couldn't see if I was doing any good yesterday.

[Watermom]

Yes, the bleach will clear up the water. As it kills algae, your pool will get less and less green, although the dead algae often clouds up the water. Is there any debris on the bottom of the pool? If so, net it out. If not, just keep socking it with bleach for now and backwashing whenever your filter pressure rises 8-10 psi over your clean filter pressure.

How many times a day are you testing your water? You need to do so at least twice (and 3 times) per day is even better. Each time, add more bleach. The key to killing algae is to sustain high chlorine readings. If you don't, it will take forever to clear the pool. You don't want to shock it and then let it fall way off before dosing it again with more bleach. Keep us posted on how it is going.

[hannadock]

When you say shock do you mean bleach? I read at 700am and 6pm before and after work. Will the bleach eliminate the cloudy water? When I checked this morning the water is cloudy but no green on the bottom. The bottom is alittle cloudy but I didn't see anything.

[CarlD]

Yup. "Shock" is a verb--it's what you do (not that it actually means much).

When you "shock" a pool, you are simply upping the chlorine in it to a level that will kill anything in it.

Bleach is Liquid Chlorine in either 5.25% or 6% concentrations. The first is called "regular" the second "ultra". "Liquid Shock" at the pool store is Liquid Chlorine in 6%, 10% or 12.5% concentrations. (Technically, Sodium Hypochlorite diluted in Sodium Chloride solution, ie, saltwater).

Packets labeled "shock" are usually convenient-sized but expensive packs of Di-Chlor, Tri-Chlor, Calcium Hypochlorite, or Lithium Hypochlorite (this last is insanely expensive). They all do the same thing as Liquid Chlorine/Bleach: Raise your chlorine level in your pool to where it kills living stuff and metabolizes other stuff (like sun-tan lotion).

But they all have drawbacks.
Di-Chlor and Tri-chlor add stabilizer, which you may or may not want. They both lower pH, though Tri-chlor does it more dramatically.

Cal-Hypo is trickier to handle, quite dangerous around other forms of chlorine when it's in effective concentrations (over 60%), adds calcium, which you DON'T want in a vinyl pool and MAY want more of in a concrete pool, and may raise your pH and be tough to dissolve.

Lithium is insanely expensive for fairly low concentrations.

ONCE they are dissolve in the water, they are all the same--chlorine is chlorine is chlorine.

But each can be beneficial. I'm using Tri-Chlor right now since my pH was fairly high, my CYA(stabilizer) was non-existent, and I had just trounced the biggest algae bloom I ever had, and the first at spring opening, so I wanted a constant chlorine level. Once I hit my target CYA, I'll stop--or when the last tablets dissolve!

[hannadock]

I didn't see my last post but I read in 7am and 6pm. running pump 24/7. Came home today and did my backwash. Water still cloudy so I can't really tell what's in the bottom in the deep end. When I brushed the walls and floor what was on the deep in came up and mixed in with the water. Added 4 more gallons of bleach. Thanks

[aylad]

Usually when the pool goes from green/cloudy to blue/cloudy it means the algae is dying, and the cloudiness is the dead algae in the water, which will be removed by your filter. Make sure your filter runs 24/7 and that you backwash as needed as the filter takes all of it out.

Janet

[hannadock]

Ok. I am backwashing/rinsing/vacuuming/bleaching everyday my water is still cloudy blue. Realistically how long will it take for my water to clear up? Thanks

[Watermom]

Usually within a week. Make sure you are running your pump 24/7 as Janet suggested. If, after a week, you are losing no more than 1 ppm of chlorine overnight and it is still cloudy, you might add a dose of Polyquat 60%. It is the only algaecide we recommend, (although algaecides are more of a preventative against algae forming rather than taking care of an algae problem) but it will also act as a clarifier which might help.

But -- give it a week. It will probably be cleared up in that time.

[aylad]

You could go ahead and add your stabilizer now if you'll put it in an old sock or knee-hi and hang it in front of a return so that it dissolves into your pool. That way the stabilizer should be registering by the time you're ready to lower your chlorine levels to normal. You don't want to put it into your skimmer until you're finished with the frequent backwashings, though. Follow label directions to dose it to 20 ppm but put it in the sock instead of broadcasting it like the directions say. It dissolves slowly, so I wouldn't bother to test for it for at least 4-5 days after you've added it to the pool.

Janet

[AnnaK]

The stabilizer I bought last year dissolves very quickly, which surprised me when I first dosed my pool because the stuff I had used prior to that was granular and slow to dissolve. This product, sold by Seaboard, is 100% cyanuric acid and is flakes rather than granules.

I've put 2 cups in a skimmer sock, knotted it and put it in the skimmer basket. The product was dissolved within 6 hours (pump on); the water temperature was approximately 58°F at the time. It showed up on my CYA test the next day.

I've also put it inside the collector bag of my PoolSkim while the pump was running. It was dissolved the next morning and was measurable.

Just thought I'd share my personal experience because there seem to be different kinds of CYA available. Not all are the slow-dissolving kind.

[hannadock]

where is the best place to buy Polyquat 60%. My chlorine is still high because I am putting bleach in it everyday and nothing else. My water is not clear but see thru cloudy. I can see the vacuum head in the bottom in the deep end but not good. My ph finally went to around 6 today. Should I now be trying keep my ph up? By the way how long does test kit tablets sealed in alum stay good?

[Watermom]

You'll probably have to buy Polyquat 60% at a pool store, but I may be wrong. Somebody else may know of someplace else that sells it.

If your ph is around 6, you need to add some Borax ASAP!! A Ph reading below 7.0 is acidic and will damage your pool. ASAP!

[hannadock]

I found it at waterwarehouse online with next day delivery. Thanks

[hannadock]

My water is still not crystal clear. My readings are in range. It's been almost 3 weeks now. I have put more than 40 bottles of 182oz of bleach in my pool. I have been backwashing, scrubbing and vaccumming till my back hurts. Should it take this long. My pool is 20X40 inground and around 56000 gallons.

[AnnaK]

I'm a little confused by your pool volume. In an earlier post you said it's 36,000 but now you say it's 56,000. Maybe a typo? Given the dimensions of 20x40 and averaging a depth of 5' we'd be looking at +/- 36,000.

Would you please post your test numbers?

FC, CC, TA, CH, CYA, pH, and please describe what you use for water testing.

It sounds like you've been doing everything right as far as brushing, backwashing, filtering and treating the water. Knowing the FC and CC readings would help us try to understand what's going on. If the water is still cloudy we might be looking at issues unrelated to algae.

[hannadock]

I must have made a typo it is 56000 if calculator is correct. 20X40 with 8.5 deep end.

I use a Aqua Chem test kit and another by Bio-Labs.

My CYA is around 70
My FC is 5.0
My TC is 11 or 16 unsure how you calculate this
My PH is near 7.6
My TA is 140

I added 2 bottles bleach late last night. I just added soda this morning and Polyquat 60 tonight. Should I use Floc to settle this stuff down?

[polyvue]

I must have made a typo it is 56000 if calculator is correct. 20X40 with 8.5 deep end.
If your pool is "typical" -- 3.5 feet shallow end, 8.5' deep end... the average depth is close to 6 feet.

20 x 40 (rectangle) x 6 (avg. depth) x 7.48 (gallons in cubic sq ft) = 35, 900 gallons

It appears Total Alkalinity (TA) went from too low to too high. You may be trying to do too many things at once. Do you have a test result for Calcium Hardness (CH)?

With a CYA of 70 ppm, you must maintain AT LEAST 20 PPM Free Chlorine (FC) to continue shocking...

See http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=365

[hannadock]

Do I need calcium for vinyl?

[Watermom]

No. Don't worry about the calcium for a vinyl pool.

[polyvue]

Do I need calcium for vinyl?
No. If you know there's no calcium in the water, you could just indicate CH=0.

Had just thought you'd forgotten to post it.

Although it feels like you've been adding chlorine all your life... if the Free Chlorine (FC) drops by more than 1 PPM or so overnight, it's not over. The Total Chlorine (TC) -- whichever number is correct -- means that there is quite a lot of Combined Chlorine (CC).... an indication that your efforts are working, but quite slowly.

It will take about 8 gallons -- (or 12 96 oz. jugs) of 6% bleach to bring 36K gallons of water from 5 to 20 PPM FC. And you'll likely need more tomrrow morning to bring it back up to 20 PPM.

[hannadock]

My FC has not been below 3 since I started and I test everyday. I am not losing chlorine I just can't get my water totally clear.

[AnnaK]

My TC is 11 or 16 unsure how you calculate this




Total Chlorine = Free Chlorine + Combined Chlorine

An FAS-DPD type test kit can measure FC at concentrations far above 5 ppm which is the value at which most other tests quit. A TC of 11 (or 16) means your CC is 7 (or 11) which is an indicator that the chlorine you're adding is working on something in your water. I am not familiar with the test kits you use, don't know their range, and am somewhat concerned that your numbers may not be accurate.

In my opinion, there's little sense at throwing a flocculant at the water until the FC holds steady but without being able to test for the high concentration of FC needed for the amount of CYA we're all just sort of working in the dark, guessing at why your water remains cloudy.

This thread started with TA "around 30". How did it get to 140?
You added 3.75 pounds of stabilizer which would have increased CYA by ~ 12 ppm. How did it get to 70 ?

I'm having a problem with the testing and the numbers.

[Watermom]

A few questions.

Are you still testing twice a day? When you add bleach, how high are you taking the chlorine? You need to be adding enough bleach to get to 20 each time you add it. You say that your chlorine level has never been below 5 since you started trying to clear this. Cl of 5 in a pool with a cya of 70 will never clear algae. You must SUSTAIN that high reading. If you can test and add more bleach three times a day that would be even better.

Since you are having some difficulty with the chlorine testing, do you have a reputable pool store that you can take a water sample to for testing? Let them run a complete set of numbers for you. Just don't let them talk you into buying a bunch of stuff while you are there.

[hannadock]

Finally my water is clear this morning and my chlorine is around 15. I added the Polyquat 60 last night. 2 more questions and I think I will be done with this thread. How high should I try to get my CYA and should I always have a chlorine level of 20. Thanks for all the advice.

[AnnaK]

I'm very happy to read that your water has finally cleared. You've worked hard to get it there!

Now that the immediate crisis of green and cloudy water has apparently been resolved you'll have some time to read the Stickies on this forum. Stickies are permanent notes which cover a number of common problems and their solutions as well as explanations about the BBB Method, the ratio of chlorine to CYA, and everything you've ever wanted or needed to know about pool care and feeding.

By exploring the various sections and topics on the Pool Forum you'll find the information you need.

Again, congratulations on clearing up your pool and happy swimming!

[Watermom]

Anna is right that reading all the stickies is a good idea -----not just for you, but for everyone! Especially our new members.

Now about your questions -- post a current cya reading.