AG leak; help!!

[SandyDittmer]

We have a Doughboy AG pool, 16 x 28, 13,600 gallons, deep end, vinyl lined, use chlorine as directed here for sanitizer.

We noticed our level of water was dropping over the winter, rather steadily. We took the cover off today (way early to open for our climate, but we want to try to find the problem). We discovered that our pool had leaked all but about 14" of water over the winter!!!

The pool dealer said it could be a leak as small as an eyelash that could leak that much water out. I find that hard to believe, but I suppose he knows more than I. We are hoping (and praying) that it is not an underground, main drain problem. The dealer said it is probably just a leak in the liner somewhere.

I got in today (water is way too cold) to try and determine if the seams were okay. I will need to do more investigating, but they seem alright.

Do any of you know if those leak detection kits with the dye work for helping to find the leak? What do you recommend to try and find the leak? I know we need to refill the pool ASAP to prevent the liner from shrinking. So far, it doesn't appear to be damaged.

If anybody has any suggestions as to how to find a leak, please let us know. It's still way too cold to swim, so I will most likely buy some hip waders to help for now. The deep end will have to wait. Maybe the leak will be in the shallow part (hopefully).

Thanks for any advice.

Joe and Sandy Dittmer

[Poconos]

Take a look at my post in this thread

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=561&highlight=%28ajs-1%29

In your case my guess would be the leak is about at the present water level since it leaked over the Winter. Really narrows the search.
Al

[hrsdennis]

Hi Joe and Sandy, Holes are usually caused by the pool cleaner. Hand vacuums can leave holes all around the outer edge. These will usually leak the most water. They will be located at the top of the cove and look like small black dashes. A very small tear in the cove can leak a lot of water.

The other type of cleaner caused holes are much harder to find. They are pin holes in the bottom, usually in the location the cleaner spends to much time being lazy. The only way to find them is to go under the liner and look for daylight. Very often I see the milky way doing this.

I would start by taking a close look at the cove area, where the cove meets the wall. If you can find the hole, or holes and patch them you will not have to drain any more water out of the pool.

Best of luck, Dennis

[CarlD]

Don't laugh:
I consider one of my most important tools for my pool to be a full-length wet-suit, with boots, gloves and a hood. When you have a leak and the water is 58 degrees, it's the only way you can fix the leak under water safely--you can actually WORK in the water. A full length wet suit can be as little as $100 from West Marine--it doesn't have to be expedition quality.

There ARE underwater patch kits--they are a pain to use but they work. I find it helps to have a little rolller like the tile guys use. Plan on AT LEAST 2 layers--a first patch over the hole, then a much larger patch to cover, protect, and seal the first patch better. Bad holes can require 4.

Look around your pool for signs of leakage--a tell-tale trail of sand is a good one for example. This narrows your search for the hole enormously.

Good luck!

[SandyDittmer]

Thank you all for your replies. We are taking into consideration everybody's suggestions to figure this out.

We are not actually certain the water has stopped leaking; therefore, the leak may or may not be at the current water level.

We use a Dolphin Diagnostic "robotic" pool cleaner to clean the pool with. The only place I've ever noticed it spending too much time is when it gets stuck at the skimmer or return line (it climbs the walls). The water level right now is way below that.

Dennis, were you kidding about getting UNDER the liner? How in the world do you do that?

The water in the pool right now is so nasty and green (even though I put it away for the winter spotless). This is due to the fact that a couple months ago, the accumulation of ice and snow on the top of the cover was so heavy that the cover started ripping at the seams because of the shortage of water in the pool below. We cut the cover off and let it sink in to save the pool walls. Anyway, now we have to somehow get the pool floor and 14" of water cleaned up so we can even begin to see a leak. The pool cleaner won't work unless we add about another foot of water, so that is what we have to do right now. There's no way to find a pinhole or a small cut with algae and junk floating all over and stuck on the floor.

Thank God the liner seems alright and did not shrink up due to lack of water.

I will be purchasing a wetsuit. I guess that is the only way we will be able to find the hole. Since it may, indeed, still be leaking, it could still be the plumbing underground connected to the main drain. We are really hoping that is NOT the case. We do winterize the main drain per Doughboy's directions (antifreeze).

There is no evidence of a leak outside the pool. No sand, no water, nothing.

If anything else comes to any of you, give a shout. I was in so much pain (literally!) from going in yesterday (only up to my knees), I am afraid to even attempt it again without waders or a wetsuit or something. I suppose we could really just fill it up and look for the leak when it warms up to swimming temp. But then we would be wasting a lot of water, not to mention that if for whatever reason we should have to DRAIN the pool, that would really stink!

Thanks again,

Joe and Sandy

[hrsdennis]

Hi again, a few more things to add.

As the water level drops so does the pressure on the holes and they tend to plug themselves back up. A pool with pin holes at the bottom could easily stop leaking at the half way point or so.

As for going under the liner, it is a last resort. You would pump the water down at about ten in the morning, do the repair and start refilling ASAP. You must leave the deep end full or it will shrink bigtime. The rest should be OK for a few hours if the liner is not to old.

I remove two top rails, rods, coping and all. I slip in behind the liner while my helper pulls the liner up over the wall again. It is now very dark and a hole is easy to find.

At this time you have the best plan. Refill the pool and clean it up. The pool needs to be very clean in order to find a hole. A wetsuit and goggles are very helpful.

If the pool is on top of the ground and you cannot find a wet spot around the outside the hole is probably not in the cove area. Hopefully it will be something that just jumps out at you when the pool is cleaned up. If not be thinking cleaner.

Good Luck, Dennis

[matt4x4]

Many times, holes get into the liner because someone was not careful with removing the steps in the fall - look there FIRST since it sounds like the hole was caused when the pool was closed and not discovered until after closing.
Get the water left in the pool clean by adding some bleach and stirring it around with a broom, the algae should fall out within a couple of days giving you relatively clear water to look around in.
Check at or just above the current water line first (you may have had some evaporation allready) - especially if it's not dropping any more.
You can also add a few inches of water to the pool, this should start the leak going again, so you can look for teh wet spot and narrow down the location.

[SandyDittmer]

I got brave today and went in to try and locate the leak. The water was clean and clear with the help of our Dolphin cleaner. I don't know how I would have gotten it that clean short of completely refilling the pool first so the skimmer and filter would be working. The Dolphin acted as a stand-alone filter, so I didn't have to add much water at all. Just enough so the Dolphin could work properly.

Anyway, after about 15 or 20 minutes of looking (and freezing), I found a hole!!! It was located near the bottom of the cove, about 1" above floor level (on the wall). It is between 1/16" and 1/8" in diameter (a hole, not a cut or rip). When you drip the red dye by the hole, it definitely sucks the dye out. But, now I have a concern. I am so paranoid at this point that I find it hard to believe we could lose that much water over the winter from such a tiny hole. I would estimate we lost about 7,000 gallons of water.

I guess my question is......should I continue looking for more leaks, or do you think that could be the whole problem? I don't plan on refilling and "opening" the pool for our use for about 3 weeks. I need to get the deck cleaned and sealed (an annual project) first. So I thought I would repair the hole, add some chlorine, and put the cover back on for a few more weeks.

What type of patch kit works best? Are there any brands that work better than others? I did do one repair a couple years ago, and it is now ugly and yellow. I would prefer it be blue to match the liner.

Thanks again for all you who gave suggestions. They REALLY helped.

Sandy

[matt4x4]

That's probably it, you would not believe how much water you can lose out of a tiny hole, patch it, fill pool and monitor level, likely something did drop onto the liner and puncture it.

[matt4x4]

Use the clear kits - there are two types - adhesive backed and separate adhesive - I prefer the separate adhesive - thicker patch, better quality - patches are clear - will likely yellow, that's due to glue drying up - simply remove old patch and clean the yellow spot (can be done underwater) and reapply new patch.

[hrsdennis]

I prefer the Boxer brand glue with a 1" circle of an actual liner. The piece cut out for skimmer is perfect for making patches. Some times the pool stores will sell 1' square pieces of vinyl to be used as patches. There is always the excess overhang if the liner is an overlap.

That small of a hole in that location could easily leak that much water.

Best of luck, Dennis

[Poconos]

Yes...I agree with Dennis. Boxer #100 specifically. Available in cans with a dauber...think 8 Oz for about $8 as I recall. It is a slow acting glue unlike most underwater patch kits that attack fast. The Boxer won't curl the patch material and gives you time to place it right. Sandy, since you said it was near the bottom of the cove, I assume the transition from bottom to side, once you do the patch I'd place a piece of plastic sheeting over the patch weighted down with a sandbag and leave it in place for a few days. I used n old pillowcase loaded with sand. The Boxer-100 takes time to do a good bond but it really holds. I researched all this crap a year ago when I had a deep end leak and had to fix it when the water was still in the 50's. Somewhere on this site I have pics of how I did it. If I find it I'll update this post.
Al

Must say I don't have any known association with the Boxer adhesive thing.

[hrsdennis]

My brother in law would put a bowling ball on his patches. I just put the glue on the patch, go under water and carefully place the patch over the hole and then plant my big toe on it. I then come up for air and hold my toe in place for about a minute or two. I have done this hundreds of times with great success.

Dennis