Heat Pump in the New York/North East Area Make Sense ? Survey Please

[akrauss]

Thanks for all the great info. This WILL be the summer I finally heat my pool. However, I am still on the fence about whether to go with a Heat Pump or Propane fired heater. I would greatly appreciate hearing from people who have purchased a heat pump for use in the New York/North East Area as to: (1)Whether you are satisfied; (2)If not, why not; (3)The temperature you typically keep your pool at; (4)the make and model of the Heat Pump you purchased; and (5)whether you feel the Heat Pump is a cost savings over a gas fired heater (propane or natural).

For those interested, I am in Northern Westchester County, NY, my pool is free-form vinyl lined, approx. 20 x 35' at its longest dimensions, with 5 1/2 feet at its deepest on two sides and 3 1/2 at its shallowest on two sides. No spa. Gets tons of sun. In order for me to install a propane heater, I would have to put the tank up near my house and trench the copper pipe approx. 70 feet to my equip. pad, because the pad is too far from the road for a truck to refill a propane tank. Thus, additional cost added to heater around $1,800 for trenching, copper pipe and plumbing labor. In contrast, while the Heat Pump could be installed at the Equip. pad, I would then need to trench electrical all the way to my panel (on the complete opposite side of the house) and upgrade to allow a new dedicated 50 amp (?) breaker. The distance from Equip.pad to panel is well over 100 feet, some of which is under my elevated deck. As such, I understand I can tack the electrical to the deck underside for approx. 30' of the 100+ feet, instead of trenching. Price for electrical - - unknown, but I have a friend/licensed electrician who said he would do it. However, he is the kind of guy who doesnt want me to worry about the cost and resists taking money from me on smaller jobs. I figure cable alone has to be fairly signicant.

Any comments would be most appreciated.

[Poconos]

Really don't know what to tell you except a few general things. The $1800 sounds real steep for laying a pipe. Code probably says gas pipe has to be at least 18" down. You could rent a ditch witch and do the trenching yourself. Once the ditch is dug then get a bunch of sand and lay a couple inches in the trench, lay the pipe, then a couple more inches of sand then refill. Sand protects the pipe from rocks and so forth. For a run that long the pipe diameter is probably over an inch because of the distance you have to flow low pressure gas. There are tables for this info. This is what I did when I had a propane heater but then again, no codes at my place.
As for the tradeoff of propane vs. heat pump, I have no idea. All depends on propane cost and electric rates. You're pretty far north so a heat pump for heating a house in the Winter probably won't make sense but for a pool you're adding heat when the outside temperature is high so the heat pump efficiency is high. I have no experience with heat pumps for pools.
Hope this helps a little.
Al

[akrauss]

Thanks Poconos. The $1,800 was made up of approx. $750.00 to dig the trench and the remainder for the propane co. to lay the pipe and price of materials. Yes, code in my town requires 18" trench, backfilled with suitable sand/pea gravel. Likely, a lot of rocks to contend with in digging the trench. Besides the long run, there is also a significant elevation change as the pool area is terraced below with RR tie retaining wall. I believe this also requires certain "modifications" in piping dimension. I am hoping to be comfortable going with the Heat Pump, but waiting to see how people respond to post.

[CarlD]

The other question that comes to mind is are you planning to use your pool everyday or leave it for a week or more at a time. For everyday use you'll probably want the heat pump since it's supposed to be far less expensive to run on an everyday basis. But if you have to heat the pool up because it has sat, then gas may be the way to go.

Have you considered solar? You said you have a great deal of sunlight. Trust me, it works where you live. I give this as an example:

My parents had an 18x33 oval 4' deep. I installed a 4x20 and 4x10 panel for them--just the two panels. Their pool (and the panels) only got 6 hours of direct sun a day (too many trees), yet the pool which NEVER went over 80 in years past, stayed at 84 all summer.

The kicker: their house is in Ossining. That's Northern Westchester.

[akrauss]

Thanks CarlD. This is my primary (and only) residence so the pool will not sit idle. The idea is to make it warm enough to really make good use. I am a lap swimmer and would love to try and get in almost every day.

Ahhhh .... solar. Now why did you have to complicate my choices -- and Ossining is approx 15 min. from me ! Several people have suggested solar, but I guess, I mentally pushed that aside because I was pulling my hair out with only two choices. Also, my house sits terraced above the pool which is probably 10 feet below. Between the house and the pool is a two tiered 8-10 foot railroad tie retaining wall. Thus, I envision another difficult process to pipe it up to house and down to the pool. Dont see how to add a photo to the post, otherwise I would show you what I am up against and no we didnt build the pool, it was preexisting at the house we purchased approx. 4 years ago.

How much for a solar system to suit my needs, with or without labor ?

Thanks again for your help.

[Poconos]

About the solar...all it takes is a south, or somewhat south, facing area and as much space as you have. I have a back field about 70' from the pool that is unmowed. Laid out 1200' of black poly 1/2" pipe on rolled shingles to give the pipe a black surface to sit on. Total area is about 8' x 50' and it could be shrunk if more effort was put into laying the pipe. When the grass grows you can't even see it. Pros about homebrew, cheap. Cons, not as efficient as a mat heater.
Unless you use something like photobucket you can't post pics on the forum. Even we mods can't. Bah!
Al

[akrauss]

Thanks Al. Unfortunately all the sun I get is on an east/west facing roof. I have NO south facing roof and no other area to lay out such a system.

[CarlD]

Panels can be set on angled racks--they actually face the sun better. I have a FantaSea pool--the deck is the solar heater!

[cleancloths]

I'm in northern NJ and have had a heatpump for 10 years. Its an 85,000 btu unit and my pool is a 20 x 40 inground - works great. Whatever you do make sure to use a solar cover on the pool at night and when not in use - it makes a huge difference. Two years ago I added a pair of 2' by 20' solar panels that just lay on the ground by the fense. They handle all the heating of the pool from late may till mid august. The heat pump is only needed to bring the pool up to temp (like I did two weeks ago) and to provide some extra heat during april and early may and mid august till I close in late sept.

[DanS]

I've had a heat pump in Maryland for 6 years. It cost more than double the price of a propane heater. Now it needs a $1500 repair, and I'm going to get rid of it and switch to propane. For me, I think the up front additional cost was greater than any savings I may have had from using a heat pump. With the house and pool using electricity, I can't say how much it cost to run the heat pump, but I doubt I saved at least $500 per summer, and it only lasted 6 years until the expensive problem. What I dislike is that it only raises the pool temperature a few degrees per day, even running nearly 24 hours per day and using a cover. Last fall, it couldn't even maintain the temperature at the end of the season. I need to run my pool a lot more than I would run it with a more powerful heater, so this is an additional cost. Whatever you choose, the solar cover was a big help, and they don't cost much.

[akrauss]

Thanks DanS. That is helpful insight. I must say that since I posted this thread, I also posted several threads on the www.gardenweb pool & spa forum, which raised other concerns, including the 2010 mandated USEPA change from the R22 refrigerant to a more "ozone friendly" R410-a variety. For your reference, the thread can be found at the following link:
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/pools/msg0513374510501.html?17
Thus, between the refrigerant issue, the additional upfront cost, a difficult and costly wiring situation (requiring 200+ feet and an upgrade to my breaker panel) and being subjected to temps in the 30's and 40's over the last few days, I am again looking at propane. Regardless, I am defintely getting a solar cover - - which has its own difficulties due to my free form pool. Any recommendations on pool cover and/or rollers and methodology ? I have heard a number of people saying they cut the cover in half, thirds or quarters for ease of handling.

[DanS]

I got my cover from my sister in law for free, and it doesn't exactly fit my free form pool. It is a little smaller than the pool in some places. It still helps a lot. I have a decent size patio, so if it is just me or the family swimming, I just drag it on to the patio and drag it back on the pool when I'm done. If I need it to look good and be out of the way, I fold it and roll it up like a sleeping bag. I only use it for a few weeks at the beginning and end of Summer, so it's not too much work, but a reel to roll it up on may be helpful if you take it on and off a lot.