Math/New Water Help

[elsie]

I apologize for the long thread but I can't seem to shorten it.

Now that I buy the bigger jugs of 6% bleach (which are much more difficult than the 1 gallon jugs to guestimate when adding to pool), I wanted to put in writing several scenarios for increasing or maintaining my pool's chlorine level for use at home, e.g., how many double cups to raise FC by about 3 ppm which is what I usually lose on a sunny day with 50-60 ppm of CYA (I don't dare go lower than this). My pool's still covered but I will be uncovering it in the next week or two so last night I ran the pump awhile and took a water sample from the skimmer. I should mention that I had a new liner installed last September and continue being perplexed why the water still can't seem to hold a chlorine level with a solid winter cover on it. I never used to have this problem with the "old" water -- it would only drop from 15 ppm to about 8 ppm over 8 long months. Anyway, no surprise when I checked last night, the CL was again at zero.

So last night I added an entire 2.46 jug of 6% bleach and let the pump run overnight; I also added yet another box of Borax as I also can't keep my pH up -- conversely with the "old" water I had to add acid because pH would creep up constantly.

This morning the CL reading was 4.5. I'm at work now and have access to the pool calculator so I plugged my baseline and target CL numbers in and hit calculate with respect to using 6% bleach. It tells me I should add 187 ounces of bleach to raise it from zero to 4.5 ppm. Yet by my math, the 2.46 jug I used would amount to 302 ounces based on 128 ounces being in a gallon x 2 + the 46 ounces = 302 ounces. I suppose it could be possible that the CL was actually higher last night and simply dropped to 4.5 by this morning which could make sense (and give me more faith in the pool calculator) but, otherwise, I'm not sure I can trust the pool calculator. Of course I suppose it's also possible the gallonage of my pool is not exactly 20,000 gal like I was told by previous owners; I was told it was 9 ft. deep but the liner installer said no, it's 8.5 feet deep. Lots of variables I guess, but what's really eating at me is why, since I got the new liner and then covered it with a winter cover just a few days later last September, I have not been able to keep chlorine in the pool or keep my pH stable all winter. I just find it very hard to believe there's an algae bloom, and the water sample I took certainly is very clear. At the cost of Borax it will be very defeating to have to add this regularly to keep the pH up, not to mention not being able to keep CL in the pool.

In the midst of my perplexion, having browsed this great forum for a number of years now, the only answer I can see for not being able to hang onto chlorine in a covered pool would be because of algae, yet it just doesn't make sense when for 6 years prior I never had these issues.

Could the pH issue be related to the CL issue? If I can't keep CL the pH drops?

I want my old water back! ;(

***By the way, as a member I could not access this forum at the same time there were issues related to the "Where are the Moderators" thread (which is closed). I have been wondering when this site might fall to never be resurrected because of the original owner MIA. Has something occurred where it is now here to stay? I know there's the Trouble Free site, but of course this forum will always feel like home to me, and I'm sure to many others, certainly including all the great Mods.***

[CarlD]

Well, we cannot tell from just one number.

We need to full set:
FC
CC (or TC)
pH
T/A
CYA (stabilizer levels)

Also, don't sample the water from the skimmer, sample it from a fairly innocuous part of the pool.

AS A W.A.G. (Wild "Absurd" Guess) I'd guess your CYA is 0 and you have something growing and it's "eating" your chlorine down after you add it.

[waste]

Hi Elsie:)

As I was reading your post, the thought that "the cya is gone" popped up a couple times -- I AM CERTAINLY not anywhere near as knowledgeable as chem_geek nor waterbear, but, IF memory hasn't failed me:eek: - when the cya gets eaten by the dirt bacteria (?) the result is ammonia which causes a HUGE chlorine demand, and would exacerbate the loss of cl due to UV.

I can't say what net effect this would have on the pH, but something in the back of my mind is saying that it is also a result of having the cya consumed ??

With respect to TFP, IMHO, something HAD to be done when this site stopped accepting new members and Ben went MIA:( I've said it before and caught BS for it but, I will always!! call this site my first stop when I get home and can get online! I give Ben credit for advocating BBB and his 'debunking' of widespread pool industry practices, beliefs and 'general screwing of customers'!!!! Without this site, and Ben's unannounced departure, TFP wouldn't exist!

As Al said the other day, 'It's nice to see Pool Forum being active again!' As long as the site exists - I'll be here, the mods will be here (computer servers allowing :D ) and I would hope that all members will stop by from time to time - even if it's just to say "HI" and let the world know that PF is still an active site :)

[chem geek]

I don't think this is a situation of the soil bacteria getting into the pool and converting CYA to ammonia. It doesn't sound like the CYA dropped and in this case chlorine is getting measured -- it's just getting consumed faster than one would expect. When you have ammonia in the water, the chlorine gets consumed almost immediately -- I measured zero chlorine just 30 minutes later in my own pool when this happened to me.

To get an idea for how much chlorine might be needed until the water becomes stable, one can do a bucket test. Take a large bucket of pool water and add chlorine to it at a shock level. Measure the rate of decline in the FC and also note how much chlorine it takes until the FC holds when out of the sunlight.

Nevertheless, Carl is right that you should test all your water parameters, including CYA, since that's the only way to really know what to do next. If the CYA is at zero, then that would explain a huge drop in FC during the day, though it shouldn't drop much at night unless there is algae growth or something else consuming the chlorine.

Richard

[elsie]

Hi Carl, Waste and Richard,

I know better than to *not* post all the salient numbers, geesh! Here they are as of last night:

CL 4.0
FC 4.0
TA 220
pH 7.5 (having added box of Borax)
CYA 50-55
Solid winter cover still intact

I now remember that when I had the new liner install in the Fall I kept the pool open just long enough to put stabilizer in and get it in the 50 ppm range along with, as I vaguely recall, about 5 ppm of CL -- I didn't shock as it was a brand new liner and I didn't want a high level of CL for the 8 months it was covered/closed as in the past I lost only about half the CL over 8 months with the winter cover on. So the CYA level has held but the CL has not.

My Alk is high. Typically it runs around 180 without any issues, not even cloudy water. I just perused the Stickies on lowering Alk (by lowering pH and aerating) and have printed. Although I don't have any kids or fountains, will it be sufficient to turn my two jets upward to create air bubbles? In any event, this will have to wait until I uncover the pool. At that time I will also give the water it's first shocking. Frankly, in years past I never tested for TA during the winter/covered months and for all I know it was always much higher then but then perhaps fell to its set-point of 180 with a small amount of aeration going on from the jets and my own daily laps.

So I suppose I could wait a stretch and see if the TA naturally falls or I could manipulate through the proven process. Is the latter preferred or is there little harm in just observing the pH and TA for a stretch?

I won't worry about the CL right now, as shocking it when I uncover it should resolve any issues. If there is some (invisible) algae and doesn't test out as CC or tinted water (it truly is as clear as it can get), I'm thinking one shock instead of keeping the CL at shock value for an extended time should be appropriate? As you can see I am a trifle nervous about subjecting the new liner to high levels of chlorine. Of course, how stable the chlorine level is after that will tell me a great deal and probably answer this question itself.

It looks like I won't be opening until the weekend after this upcoming one because the trees are in their final fit of shedding little oblong gifts that rain down which can clog the impeller. I'll report back and let you know how this all goes.

Thank you everyone for your input, as always. And Waste, good analysis of PF and how it relates to TFP (which I once registered with but have never posted as PF is where my mouse continues to take me) and this forum's incredibly rich history - and what could be called its living legacies. I, too, am still thrilled it continues -

Elsie

[CarlD]

You should be seeing the chlorine demand going down if that's your CYA and there's no CC.

Just aerating your water won't lower your T/A. You have to add acid to bring down both the T/A and pH. Then, when you aerate, it raises the pH without raising T/A, which even Borax will do. It's a racheting effect.

[elsie]

Yes, there should be zero chlorine demand with the winter cover and still quite cold water -- unless there's algae. And I'm thinking more and more that may very well be the case despite the clarity of the water. I understand that the pH has to come down to have the aeration process work effectively having printed out the Stickie information. But since the pH is not stable it may very well come down on its own between now and when I uncover the pool.

This brings me back to a question higher in this thread -- what makes the pH continue to drop? Does the answer lie in my high TA? My goal, of course, is to not have to continually add Borax which would impact the economy of the bleach method.

[chem geek]

As you point out, usually the pH slowly rises when using bleach or chlorinating liquid. Usually, the pH only drops when using Trichlor or Dichlor or when using non-chlorine shock (MPS). It will also drop when chlorine goes from a high FC to a lower FC. The pH will drop some going from colder water temperature to warmer water temperature -- going from 45F to 80F would drop the pH from 7.5 to 7.2 (with your TA and CYA levels).

Usually with the higher TA such as you have, the pH will tend to rise if the pool is uncovered (or has a mesh cover) so can outgas. Unless your CH is high, I wouldn't worry about your high TA right now until we sort out the pH drop. You'll want a higher TA to help compensate for that if we can't otherwise figure out why the pH is dropping.

It's possible that the new liner has some sort of reactive chemical on or part of it and this is leading to greater chlorine demand. It's possible that this chemical might also be acidic leading to a lower pH when getting into the water. However, I've never seen anyone report this situation before and it seems odd.

Richard

[elsie]

Well, I finally got the pool (with the new liner/water) opened this past weekend, unusually late for me, but every weekend during the month of May it rained and I need the solid winter cover to be dry and totally clear of debris before I take it off. And I prefer weekends because I don't like looking at the mold and crud on the pool deck that's gathered under the cover during the long months covered so need a few hours to bleach-clean and pressure wash.

Although the water is as clear as I've ever seen it, there were pools of algae scattered about on the bottom. Although I never shocked it while it was covered, I did periodically add bleach which probably explains why the water remained very clear, at least that's my guess. As a new liner was installed last September, I did not want to shock and close and have such a high chlorine level for the 8 months it was covered. This is the first time I've never shocked before covering. At the end of this season what I will do is shock and then let level drift down to 4 or 5 and then cover and check it and maintain it during the winter months much like what I did this past season but for the first time I may just add some polyquat.

In any case, I shocked to 15 and held it there for 2 days and brushed the pool each day as well as vacuumed a couple of times a day and the algae has not returned. Unfortunately, I don't think as a solo person I can vacuum to waste, can I, without someone holding the vacuum hooked up to the skimmer port so it [the vacuum head] stays in the water and doesn't suck air as I can't do that and be at the multiport at the same time? So I suppose I should probably backwash the filter, but since we're scheduled to get up to an inch of rain tomorrow I thought I'd wait since I will have to waste water anyway.

And now, interestingly, I no longer have the issue of low pH. Just like my old water, my pH creeps up (as a creature of habit I prefer this). I added 1-1/2 cups of acid the other day and my pH is now spot-on, at least for a week or two. Adding a little acid is a lot more economical than a box of borax every week! My TA is running even higher than during the winter at around 220, but with such crisp, clear water it's not a problem.

On a full sunny day w/my CYA at 50 I lose about 3 ppm of CL. Yesterday was clouds & sun and as predicted, I lost 2 ppm. Since about a third of a gallon (or 5 cups plus a tad) brings the ppm up 1, dosing is quite easy. On full sunny days I'll just add a gallon and others less. I just read a thread about preserving more FC with more CYA and although I don't understand much of chemgeek's posts as it's way more scientific than my brain can master, I'm wondering if I should raise CYA (and commensurately raise FC) to lessen the amount of bleach I will use (I still have CYA left over from last year so no out-of-pocket there). As it stands now, I figure maintenance bleach alone will run me about $30-$35 every 4 weeks with WalMart bleach @ 1.54 a gallon (it's so much easier to handle than the 1.42 jugs which then I must also measure out in cups to dose when I can just eyeball it with the gallon jugs, plus the 1.42 WalMart jugs only save a few pennies) plus more for heavy rains or needing to shock. I don't get the long hours of full sun like alyad's pool -- maybe only about 4.5 hours at most. I do run my filter 24/7 because of all the trees.

This brings me to a question I think I asked some years before but to which I don't believe anyone responded. If, for example, low pH can damage a liner, for those of us who live in the south and whose water doesn't freeze (in my case when the temps drop below 30 for a sustained number of hours I just run the pump), we absolutely *should* maintain good numbers throughout these long winter months? Why would we be so committed to them during the swimming season (e.g., in order to preserve the liner) but not the off-season? I remember adding many boxes of borax over the winter to keep my pH up and although I'd rather not, it seems to me the prudent thing to do. With a brand new liner one's state of mind is just a tad different. ;)

Janet, if you're reading this, the darker blue liner quickly grew on me. I'll try to find some time here at work in the next day or two and upload some pics to the Kodak website to share as I don't think I can upload jpg's here.

FC 6
CC 0
pH 7.5
TA 220
CYA 50

Thanks and happy swimming!!! (76 degrees and rising fast)

[aylad]

Hi Elsie, it's good to see you back this season!! I'm glad you like the liner, and I'd LOVE to see pictures, since I'm probably going to have to replace mine by next summer......assuming the piece of duct tape I have covering a small hole above the waterline on my pool holds us through this swim season! :) We've been swimming now for a couple of weeks, so taking the pool out of commission at this point is not something I even want to consider if I don't have to.

As far as your question on winter water maintenance...I do also maintain my water numbers "close" to normal during the winter, although with the water being cold, I don't see much variation from week to week. The only things I really stay concerned about are my Cl and pH. I usually lose some CYA over the winter due to dilution and backwashing (I normally keep mine at 80 during the summer, but it will drop to 40 or so over the winter) but otherwise my pH stays pretty stable and it's really a matter of keeping enough Cl in it to keep the algae gone (and I get as lazy as the next person sometimes--this winter it stayed crystal clear until late March or so, and it took a few days to clear that one up, but it's back to clear now! :) ) My pool "likes" the pH at 7.8 and will stay there as long as I leave it alone, so I do.......and it only takes a few weeks of trichlor in the feeder after we start swimming to bring it back down and to start bumping my CYA back up again. You are very right--a new liner makes you look at things through completely different glasses! :)

Janet

[elsie]

Hi Janet!

Thanks for the welcome! I just put together a slideshow of my place to share with you, friends back in my home state of Minnesota and anyone else on the forum who cares to view my pool and property. By the way, I live in Maylene, Alabama, about 35 miles south of Birmingham. As a bit of background (I know this is long, but one can choose how much to read or not read), I bought this property 7 years ago for $102k (and with the falling housing market probably isn't worth much more than that now despite improvements). I've done a lot to it: had metal roofs installed on house and outbuildings; had it sided and new windows and patio door installed; stained the pool concrete deck and patio with H&C stain (great economy-a few hundred bucks and it transformed that old gray porous concrete beautifully); put a colored stain on the back and front decks and built a third, smaller deck "back in the little woods;" had trees removed that were hanging over the roof (but I still have to go up there routinely as well as on the metal roofs of the pool house and shed to blow crud off); and did a fair amount to the inside of the house as well. I also had the diving board and ladders removed to make a "flat" pool since it's pretty much just me using the pool. It's an older pool and there's nothing fancy-schmancy about it, but it is pretty.

There's both an upper driveway with attached garage as well as a lower driveway with a huge carport (which I never use but still maintain by blowing off perpetual "gifts" from the trees). As I so often tell friends back home, this property OWNS me -- it's continual work year-round, from restaining the decks every Spring and trimming hundreds of bushes to hauling and putting down new cypress or cedar mulch to leaf work that goes on, and on and on, pressure washing the pool deck and of course the regular maintenance which is always ongoing. I think you live in LA, don't you? Spring here with all the trees is a horrific mess; I blow those things that come from all the budding trees daily during April and May, sometimes hourly when I just can't stand seeing them all over the place. They get so deep you could shovel them almost, and this goes on week after week after week. The price one pays when surrounded by trees...

Luckily for me, a microburst type of storm rolled through last August and destroyed the pump and tore the ancient, leaking liner and there was no out-of-pocket for replacements except for a new multiport I had installed to replace the old one which wasn't damaged but had been giving me some trouble. The liner guy also put in a brand new floor beneath the new liner and, at my request, got rid of that main drain which wasn't operative anyway (but which still made me nervous). He replaced the StaRight 1.5 hp pump with a Hayward 1 hp Superpump (or maybe it was from 2 hp to 1.5 hp, I don't recall for sure). That concerned me but he said it would do just as good a job (maybe I'll save a bit on electricity).

The darker liner is a deeper blue when the sunlight's off it, but it still has a nice aqua sheen in bright sunlight; I was unable to commit to an even darker liner as I really did enjoy the lighter aqua, so picked something in the middle. The only thing I don't like is that close up you can see all the seams (in the deep end they're like darts on a blouse), but you really have to be right on top of the pool to see them. Unavoidable, I'm told (my old liner had no pattern left so the seams were rather invisible). And on the aerial shots (I took from the roof), it almost appears as if the deep end is a little bleached, but it's not of course, it's just the way the light affects it.

Fortunately, I'm an unusually active and fit 54 year old (two of my dogs are seniors now and go on shorter daily walks, but I take Betty, the larger rescue girl I adopted a year ago, hiking in the hills behind my house virtually every day), and though sometimes I dream of a garden home with a postage-sized yard, I know I'd be bored within the first day! So as long as I can keep the property up I'll stay. I mean, where else could I have such a beautiful place for my money?

The URL below *should* work as I just tried it by copying it into my browser, but if it doesn't we can PM and share e-mail addys and I can forward the Kodak photoshare e-mail (just let me know). This is the first time I've used Kodak photoshare in a couple of years and they've made some interesting changes - you can control the speed of the slide show and background color (the default of black is best), then just hit the play button. It starts off with a few Spring photos with the pool cover still on. Unfortunately the pics aren't full screen anymore and there's a bit of distortion in them but heck, it's free!

http://www.kodakgallery.com/ShareLanding.action?c=6zzzgqnv.8915qspf&x=0&y=-l53ipx&localeid=en_US&cm_mmc=site_email-_-site_share-_-core-_-view_photos_button

[Watermom]

Very nice, Elsie!