My ph is low and it laughs at Borax

[Unabomber007]

Been using the teachings here for 6 years or so and I am finally stumped. I'm in Va Beach and thought I'd finally clean out the pool that was uncovered and just left to basically green away over the winter. So today I dumped in 4 big jugs of Walmart super bleach which brought my chlorine level to 9.5 which is a good shock level.

A few hours later I decided to work on the ph and it was yellow or 6.8. I added 2 boxes of Borax which is what it usually takes to bump it up. Nothing. Then two more. Nothing. I bought 3 more boxes at another store and dumped them in. Nothing. I bought 6 more boxes at another store and dumped 4 in and nothing. Still yellow and sitting at 6.8. My test kit is old so I bought a new red/yellow, chlorine/ph test kit with the same yellow results so my kit is fine.

So I've added 11 boxes of Borax with no discernible bump in ph. I've also run out three stores completely of Borax. :) I have two left. So I said to hell with it and put in 16 oz of floc and that's brewing right now and my pump will go off overnight and I plan on vacuuming to waste tomorrow.

Any thoughts on the cause of no ph increase??? Do I need a pallet of Borax???

28,000 gallon vinyl inground pool BTW

[waterbear]

a couple of observations:
did you check your TA?
A full set of test numbers would be helpful here.

also, it would have been a better idea to adjust pH and TA before you shocked because high chlorine levels will cause the pH test to read high when it is not. Your pH is a LOT lower than you think and I will bet that your TA is around 0 ppm. Have you been using trichlor? That is the usual culprit.

[Unabomber007]

Didn't do TA, will post results tomorrow or maybe later tonight if testing via flashlight in the backyard appeals to me. :) We switched from Bleach and Borax for like 5 years to using 3" tabs last summer. They saved us lots of money vs. just bleach alone, so we are sticking to that route.

Regardless I'll run full numbers tomorrow at the latest.

[CarlD]

Yeah, full numbers will help.

I suspect your pH was far lower than 6.8, dangerously low. I'm worried for your liner.

Post the T/A. If it's low or not too high you can use Soda Ash to raise your pH, because it will raise your T/A as well

Soda Ash is sold as pH Up! and other expensive junk in pool stores, but it's sold in grocery stores as Arm & Hammer Washing Soda--usually right next to the 20 Mule Team Borax. It's a yellow box, not orange like the baking soda. Washing Soda is the same stuff as the pool store soda ash, only per pound it's even cheaper than Borax!

In fact, if you cannot get Borax, you'll have no other choice but Soda Ash--and the Washing Soda should be relatively easy to get.

Look at the bright side! With all this Borax you'll get your borates level up and that's a good algae inhibitor.

[Unabomber007]

Vacuumed the pool this morning and like an idiot I forgot that the basket still traps gook so I spent 1/2 my time pushing around dirt at the bottom instead of vacuuming it to waste. I'm an idiot. :(

So vacuuming is done for today and my filter is running now. I'll test here in a bit and post up once things have been stirring for awhile. Upside is it is a BEAUTIFUL day out today in VA Beach and our on again/off again duck friends are having fun in our pool. We don't mind them and our daughter loves feeding the ducks. :)

I guess now I'll have to find a source for baking soda. Arm and Hammer is FINALLY selling big bags in our area, but our local Walmart only had one bag. From pre-emptive searching I'm gonna need a butt-ton depending on how low the level is. Thanks for the washing soda tip, but they sell no such creature in VA Beach it's Borax or Oxyclean only here. Looks like I might have to go to another wallyworld or Sam's and last case to the damned pool store.

<off topicish>

Our Penta? sand filter's top is solid plastic and the gauge that screws into it is metal. See where I'm going??? Last year it started leaking so I unscrewed it, cleaned it, put teflon tape on the threads and towards the end silicon RTV. Whilst HAND TIGHTENING it down, I heard the crack of doom...the plastic "tit" that holds the gauge cracked. :( So I applied plastic epoxy to the gauge threads two days ago and screwed it in. When it cured, I applied Muffler Mud AKA two part epoxy that is like Playdough and wrapped the whole shebang in it. NO leaks now and $8 in epoxy saved me an expensive repair. If the gauge gives up the ghost I'll need a whole new top but I would have needed that anyways.

</off topicish>

[Unabomber007]

FC: 6
PH: 6.8
AL: 30
CA: unknown
CYA: 100

I never test for CA and when I did this time, it turned slightly pink and no matter how many drops I added, it wouldn't change to blue and I'm almost out of drops. Plus the drops are old as the hills. If this is important, I can have the pool store test it and report back otherwise I need to get more drops and I DOUBT the pool store will have them as they NEVER have any testing supplies worth a crap.

Well the internet tells me I'll need about 30lbs of Baking Soda....off to the store I go...

[Unabomber007]

Went to the pool store and bought 5 new test chemicals (first time EVER they had stuff in stock) and a pump filter basket gasket which ran $43. They had Alk Up or whatever they called it for $40 for 30# and $60 for 50#. So I bought 4 12lb bags of Arm and Hammer for $25 at Sam's. :) Gonna dump two now and test later today.

The internet told me to just dump in in the deep end, so I'll split the difference and do one there and one in the skimmer. Will do another full round of testing later.

[waterbear]

Why is your CYA at 100? I would recommend a partial drain and refill to get it down a bit. BTW, what test kit are you using?

[Unabomber007]

Probably because of the damn 3" tabs we are using is my guess as they all seem to have stabilizer in them. I'd like to find tabs that are JUST bleach and that's it. Heck, I've even thought about using the Clorox tabs you drop in your toilet tank but they are expensive per use. :)

100 is a little high, but nothing too drastic but I will be taking some water out of the pool. Test kit I'm using is the big honking one they sell here and I've been replacing the chems in it when they get low. I think I have the 232 model off the top of my head. Off to the pool now...

[CarlD]

Why are you dumping in Baking Soda when you don't even know your T/A #? What if it's already 200ppm?

Your CYA is very high--you need to dilute your water and refill. That might, of course, be the best recourse--dump at least half your water and refill. It should solve CYA and the heavy acidity as well.

[Unabomber007]

I'm dumping in baking soda to raise the ALK of the water. That's what you do to raise it unless the instructions on the side of the bag are wrong. Not hatin' with this statement, just stating why I am doing what I am doing.

I have no clue what T/A is??? The only unknown I have in my chem right now is CAL.

[Unabomber007]

New testing:

FC 6
CC 0
TC 5
PH 6.8
ALK 60
CAL 0?
CYA 80 (tested twice and got 80 both times)

During the CAL test my water just BARELY turns pale, pale pink and even 40 drops does nothing to change the color. So I'm guessing no CAL as previous years I've had some results from that test but nothing this year.

The pool has only been circulating for 1 or 2 hours so the Baking Soda is working and hopefully will go up a touch more later. I ended up adding 2 12# bags to the skimmer and 1 12# bag to the deep end. I still have one bag left and 2 boxes of Borax.

[waterbear]

New testing:

FC 6
CC 0
TC 5
PH 6.8
ALK 60
CAL 0?
CYA 80 (tested twice and got 80 both times)

During the CAL test my water just BARELY turns pale, pale pink and even 40 drops does nothing to change the color. So I'm guessing no CAL as previous years I've had some results from that test but nothing this year.
Wrong guess. If it stays pink at 40 drops then you are over 400 ppm CH or CAL. You need to keep going. It is possible for Calcium Hardness to be over 1000 ppm
The pool has only been circulating for 1 or 2 hours so the Baking Soda is working and hopefully will go up a touch more later. I ended up adding 2 12# bags to the skimmer and 1 12# bag to the deep end. I still have one bag left and 2 boxes of Borax.
As far as the use of trichlor (and the Corox toilet tabets are the same chemical, btw. They are also trichlor), the reason it's used in erosion feeders is that it is a slow dissolving form of chlorine that is made from stabilizer and chlorine (a chlorinated isocyanurate). It's the nature of the beast. The next slowest dissolving form of chloine is cal hypo and that dissolves MUCH faster than trichor and cannot be used in erosion feeders but must be used in skimmers or special vented feeders to avoid explosions.

IF you continue to use trichlor tabs your CYA will continue to rise at the rate of 6 ppm for every 10 ppm of chlorine introduced and since most pools need to have 1-2 ppm FC replaced every day you can see that in just one month your CYA will rise by about 20-40 ppm!

[Unabomber007]

Just tested the ALK again after running the pump along with the robot for 2 cycles and it's 150 now. My wild guess turned out to be not too shabby. I added some more floc and I'll vacuum tomorrow and probably start working on pH and Calcium I guess. I'll have the pool store test my Calcium to triple check my kit and I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and buy their stuff as there is no "Walmart fix" for calcium that I know of.

Refresh to see above advice edit:

Thanks for the advice above....I guess tomorrow I'll go ahead and drain a bunch to stave off the CYA and keep a better eye on it. I used to be a testing ninja, but recently slacked off. :( I understand about the calcium issue....I'm having the pool store check it for me as well. That test over the years has gone from a high of 190 like 4 years ago down to like 40 last year. I (being honest here) never paid attention to it and it has been steadily going down over the years, which leads me to believe that it's now 0 vs. some ungodly number. So I'll have them check to be sure.

[waterbear]

If you are going to continue with trichlor then your TA (ALK) of 150 is on the high side of OK. However, you will very soon run into problems with an oversabilized pool. I would suggest ditching the tabs and dosing with bleach every evening.
Also, there are cheaper alternatives to pool store calcium if you don't mind buying a 50 lb bag of calcium chloride (usually sold either for deicing or as a concrete additive). Look for the Tetra brand. It's a bit purer than the Dow brand.

[CarlD]

Also STOP with the baking soda--your T/A at 150 is OK for a vinyl pool, but you cannot use soda ash to raise your pH now.

Why didn't you read the directions we provide here in our stickied threads? Now you have to deal with too high T/A and too low pH simultaneously. We NEVER recommend using baking soda for anything but raising T/A. Plus, if you are using Soda Ash to raise pH, you don't use baking soda for the T/A.

I suggest AGAIN that you drain half your water and refill to give you a fighting chance on CYA, T/A and pH which are all out of whack. And you cannot use your tri-chlor pucks now.

[waterbear]

Been using the teachings here for 6 years or so and I am finally stumped.
Your very first post! I think you need to take some time to review the teachings on here by reading through the stickes, by reading everything you can on the sister PoolSolutions website, and while you are at it, also reading the Pool School section over at Troublefreepool.com. (Carl, if that last line is not OK please edit it out!).
Not being critical or anything like that but you really do not have a grasp on the basics that are taught here. Once you understand them you will not be stumped.
Also, I too buy my baking soda in the big bags from Costco and the directions on the side of the bagf/box will overdose you and raise the TA too much. (Then again, Church and Dwight AKA Arm and Hammer do want you to buy as much baking soda as possible, don't they?

[CarlD]

Your very first post! I think you need to take some time to review the teachings on here by reading through the stickes, by reading everything you can on the sister PoolSolutions website, and while you are at it, also reading the Pool School section over at Troublefreepool.com. (Carl, if that last line is not OK please edit it out!).
Not being critical or anything like that but you really do not have a grasp on the basics that are taught here. Once you understand them you will not be stumped.
Also, I too buy my baking soda in the big bags from Costco and the directions on the side of the bagf/box will overdose you and raise the TA too much. (Then again, Church and Dwight AKA Arm and Hammer do want you to buy as much baking soda as possible, don't they?

SACRILEGE!!!!! YOU ARE HEREBY BANNED UNTIL THE UNIVERSE COLLAPSES!!!! ABANDON ALL HOPE! :eek:

(Just kidding...:D...not a problem )

[Unabomber007]

I drained a good amount of water today and am refilling. I'd guess maybe 1/3 of the water...maybe 1/2. It's currently refilling and I'd test levels hopefully later tonight or tomorrow.

I think what I did wrong was to not check ALK like I should. I'll make sure to start keeping an eye on this. My reason for being dumb on these issues is my wife took over ownership of the pool last year due to my being overseas. So much of my pool smarts disappeared. I've been here and to those sites you've mentioned more times than probably anyone. Though I'm a Pool Forum n00b, this forum stuff is old hat for me....I have over 23,000 posts on the other forum I belong to. :)

Anyways, we'll see what the new testing brings.

[CarlD]

Good Luck! Post it and we'll see what we can do.

[Unabomber007]

FC 1.5
PH 6.8
ALK 120
CAL 60
CYA 80

The pump had only been running for 1 hour before the rain started, so I'm wondering what will happen tomorrow after a good long pump run. I also didn't fill it up to where it should be due to our chance of rain over the next two days. It's maybe 2" over the skimmer...right where the pump runs fine and the skimmer doesn't make gurgling noises.

CAL was 60 for sure. I measured with my 10000% WHITE LED flashlight and I could full see the color change. I guess the sun's yellow tint didn't allow me to see that before.

CYA was done with the flashlight and inside and I think the lighting isn't right to read it effectively as you are supposed to do it in sunlight. So I hope that goes down after longer pump running, a touch more water, and a sunny outdoor reading. I'll not be a happy camper after dumping 10,000ish gallons of water to not see a change.

Anyways, I added nothing and turned the pump off for the night. Tomorrow, weather depending, I will run the pump for 3 hours at least. I will probably dump in 1 big jug of Walmart Bleach and my last 2 boxes of Borax. Then retest to see if my ALK change helped my pH ability. So unless anyone has further input that's what I'll do tomorrow if the rain cooperates.

[CarlD]

You cannot test CYA that way--you'll get a false reading. ALL the tests are best done in daylight or sunlight and CYA has to be done in direct sun.

Meanwhile, you should go ahead and add your last two boxes of Borax. Remember: Most pool test kits cannot measure pH below 6.8. It could be 4.2 and would show as 6.8. Until you get it to 6.9, you won't know that you've reached that 6.8.

[waterbear]

Though I'm a Pool Forum n00b, this forum stuff is old hat for me....I have over 23,000 posts on the other forum I belong to. :)

IF they are not swimming pool forums (and IMHO there are only 2 worthwhile ones) then those posts are not really going to help you with your pool, are they;)

[waterbear]

SACRILEGE!!!!! YOU ARE HEREBY BANNED UNTIL THE UNIVERSE COLLAPSES!!!! ABANDON ALL HOPE! :eek:

(Just kidding...:D...not a problem )
Well, it's not the first time a hot headed Mod has threatened to ban me is it? ;)
Must be a New Jersey thing!:D

[aylad]

If you're going to have to dump water, I would do it before using all the Borax, since your fill water is probably higher ph than your pool water---that way you lower your CYA and raise the pH at the same time with much less stuff added....

Janet

[CarlD]

Well, it's not the first time a hot headed Mod has threatened to ban me is it? ;)
Must be a New Jersey thing!:D

Are yoo talkin' to me? I SAID are yoo talkin' to ME????

[Unabomber007]

Tested just now after 3 hours of pump running. Not sure how much it rained, but the water level is now perfectly in the middle of the skimmer.

FC 1.5
PH 7.2 :)
ALK 120
CYA 80

So I just dropped one jug of Walmart bleach in and one more box of Borax. It's distressing that the CYA didn't go lower, but I am so not going to drain the pool again unless I start having problems.

Overall the water is MUCH improved today. Very little cloudiness as I can finally see all the way to the bottom. It needs a good vacuuming to waste but otherwise I think it's open and awaiting the better weather.

[aylad]

You need to keep a minimum of 5 ppm chlorine in a pool with CYA of 80, otherwise you're going to be fighting algae all summer. Also, if you use the trichlor pucks again this year, it's going to continue to increase your CYA and lower your pH, so I strongly suggest you use cal-hypo or bleach this year. I purposely run my pool at a CYA of 80 because I have all-day Louisiana sun with no shade and constant high humidity, but even I wouldn't allow my pool to go higher than 90 because I'd rather spend the summer swimming in my pool than shocking it.

Janet

[waterbear]

Aylad is right on the money. Listen to her! (particularly about NOT using any trichlor!)

[CarlD]

Ditto!

Further, your CYA DID come down: trying to read it at night by flashlight gave you a false score much lower than it was. The light must have made the sample look less opaque than it was.

The CYA test is PARTICULARLY sensitive to you always doing it the same way.