Every Pool Owner's Worst Nightmare

[elsie]

Then again there's worse, thinking of Janet's experience a few years ago which this doesn't begin to touch.

I left work two hours early last Thursday because I was concerned about the darkening sky. The storms here in Alabama can be wicked and have scared me since I moved here six years ago from Minnesota where blizzards are considered benign, mostly because I work so far from home here and traffic's so hellacious, a new experience for me in my 53 years. Mostly, I worry about my 3 dogs who are all terrified of bad storms (even though they have the luxury of being on the bed or couch whenever I'm away). By the time I parked my car in the garage and walked through the service door, it was barely sprinkling and I thought "oh false alarm, I should've stayed at work." But then my hair stood on end. One of my two market umbrellas on the deck was flung 20 feet downhill by a tremendous wind and landed on my pump and tore up all the above-ground pvc pipes (except for the waste pipe). Tree limbs, a heavy flower pot and a two-pronged sharp instrument I use to pry the skimmer cover off when high heat makes it expand and stick was ripped away from the nail it hangs on all landed in the pool.

In the hour after the high winds (my retired neighbor pinned down the time exactly), the water level already had dropped to right below the skimmer, of course, with the pvc's all broken, and as the days went on, the water's now dropped to below the return jets, and still dropping. Because my main drain is closed because apparently the prior owner's had pool lights there and there was a leakage problem (they had the lights removed and closed the drain), it's a closed system, so I know for sure I have a liner tear.

I'm still waiting on the adjuster to call me, somewhat on pins and needles, hoping he will approve liner replacement; otherwise I'll have to just absorb it, which is not entirely a bad thing because the liner's very old anyway and I was expecting to do this next year. Makes no sense to me to patch at this point. The only reason I wonder if insurance will replace it is because it's already an old liner at the end of its useful life (although one can never know for certain when that is, who knows, maybe it would've gone on for a number of years yet). But then again, it's storm damage, and age shouldn't matter? It would be akin to having an old roof and getting hail damage: insurance would still pay for its replacement...

Liner outfit coming tonight to give me another bid. I got one last Saturday -- only $145 for all the pvc repair and replacing the ball valve (water handle) (no chlorinator because I don't use one; I should have one put in for resale but when I turned my original one off when I went to BBB method it made an obnoxious rattle sound), but they want $3,000 for a new 16x32 in ground liner; another I spoke with on the phone wants the same. One place I called, but the guy doesn't do in ground liners, told me the going rate should be around $2200, and said that there's lots of folks out there ripping people off and charging $3,000, but I suspect they're all charging $3,000 -- time will tell. Some of the people I've spoken to on the phone can't even tell me the mil of the liner they want to sell me, how poor is that??!!! But, it seems the industry standard *might* be 20 mil.

1. Should I have whoever replaces the liner see what's what with that main drain? Might I get a lot more water circulation with it open? Would any debris that gets sucked into it then land in the sand filter or the secondary trap at the pump? And, what about safety, that concerns me after hearing stories of children being eviscerated at commercial pools by the main drain. That said, I wonder where the leakage problem was? If it was in an underground lateral, I wouldn't want that main drain reopened. But would that main drain lateral be right now open to the other laterals anyway, which would tell us the leakage problem is definitely not in the main drain lateral but rather right at that main drain site? I don't know how everything connects underground. I guess the liner people would/should know?

2. Chems. Once the liner's installed and I've got the hose filling it up (20,000 gallons so will take a few days), at what point do I start to add CYA and bleach? Just "as it goes"? Or something like half full, start adding them? And one at a time or simultaneously, figuring, of course, for the appropriate gallonage the pool's at? Of course chlorine can't be retained without CYA, and CYA without chlorine will give me a green pool, so I'm hoping I can add them simultaneously.

3. With the new liner I think I will start adding my bleach in the skimmer instead of directly into the pool. Are there any problems/issues with doing it this way at all?

This will be the first time I'll have to fuss with other values. My old pool water was so easy to maintain with just bleach and muriatic acid every week or two. Well, I guess the only other thing really is TA, right? Or extremely low pH, which is something I've never had. I guess I'd better order some Taylor TA reagents while I think about it.

4. The pump motor was running before I turned it off. Running rather dry, of course. Would running dry for an hour or so cause damage that's not apparent now? One pool service who came to bid said probably not, probably it would be okay as long as it gets prime when everything's fixed. But if I do put in for a claim (only if ins. will pay for new liner), might I want to argue that the motor should be replaced because of unseen damage, or is that pushing it? Will it probably be just fine and not lose a good portion of its life?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[aylad]

Oh, wow, that IS a nightmare....I am a huge chicken when it comes to bad weather--there's nowhere I'd rather be in a storm than home with the blinds closed so I don't have to know what's happening outside!

I don't know anything about main drains, because my IG pool doesn't have one, so hopefully somebody else will come along to give you useful information about that.

I think that the insurance probably will cover the liner under "wind damage", just as it should cover your plumbing. I'm not sure about your insurance company, but mine replaces at current market value..they wouldn't depreciate the value of the liner. In the eyes of the insurance company, it was a working liner, regardless of how old it was.

Your bleach and CYA can be added simultaneously--remember that it's going to take several days for the CYA to dissolve and start to protect your chlorine, so get it in as soon as possible. I would go ahead and add bleach as soon as you have a way to circulate it. You're going to have to add the bleach daily until you have a measurable CYA level, though, so make sure that you have plenty on hand.

As for adding bleach through the skimmer, (assuming the pump is running), the only problem with it might be fading of the liner around the outside of the skimmer plate if you don't pour it slowly enough...otherwise, adding it through the skimmer is fine. Personally I'd rather add it through the returns, though, so that it gets to my pool before it gets to my filter...I don't want to waste any by trying to "sanitize" anything that's stuck in my sand filter.

You're right in that TA and pH are the other values that concern you when restarting the pool--running a test on your fill water ahead of time might tell you how much Borax or acid you need to have on hand for the refill.

Don't know about the pump motor...I'd say that if it were still running when you found it, and if it primes okay after the pool is refilled, you're probably okay...but I don't know much about them so maybe Poconos or somebody that is a motor expert will stop by soon.

By the way, when your skimmer plate sticks, pour a cup full of tap water from the pool or hose over the plate and it will lift right out!

Good luck.....you have a mess on your hands but hopefully your insurance company will come through and get you up and running quickly.

Janet

[Watermom]

You're right about Jan's pool nightmare being worse ...............

But, your problem is certainly a lot to handle, too! Jan has given you good advice. Just a couple of comments. I always add my bleach through the skimmer -- slowly --- and don't have any problems. One other thing, although I am certainly a 'bleach girl,' since you need chlorine and cya, you might want to consider some trichlor tabs to put both in at once in this circumstance. If there was some way that you could put a floater where your water hose is running to fill the pool, that would be a way to get some of both in there at the same time. Then, when your pool is full, you can continue to use the trichlor pucks for awhile to build your cya or switch to bleach. Only thing is that trichlor is very acidic and will drop your ph. If your fill water is extremely low ph, this might not be a good plan, but if not, I think it could solve the problem of needing both in there at the same time for these first couple of days as your pool fills.

Good luck and sorry you are having to deal with this.

[elsie]

Thanks Janet, Watermom -

Of course! Insurance always pays "replacement value" - I momentarily forgot as I've never had a claim in my life before. I may be in good shape, I just hope I don't hear "well, we'll pay to have it patched…" But I do have a really good insurer (Alfa) after giving State Farm the boot a number of years ago.

Good idea to test my tap water! Then I can be all prepared. I think I still have my TA reagents from Ben's kit a couple of years ago, and they might even still work as they appeared to when I tested once at the beginning of the season out of curiosity. I'll first run on current pool water to see then try it on my tap water. That way I don't have to reorder that reagent, and I still have plenty of CYA reagent from my Spring 2008 order.

I wonder if I should have them put a chlorinator back on my pump? I had it cut out when I went to the BBB method because it made such a rattling noise turned off. Can anyone tell me if they have a chlorinator but have it turned off and if it makes a racket? If not then I can assume it was that older chlorinator, and putting a new one on might be the way to go, "just in case." I never take vacation because I won't kennel my dogs, but it might be a good thing to just have one put on.

Got another bid last night and I've already decided I'll go with this guy. He's a go-getter unlike the others who waxed and waned about the timing thing ("well, maybe in a month we can get to installation…"). He said once I give the go-ahead that he'll order it (he measured last night) and it will come in after around 5 days and he'll promptly install it. He also said the mil would be 28 on the floor and 20 on the walls, and he told me about the warranty (one year full, then pro-rated after that). And, that the motor is probably fine, but he'll quote one price with it and one without for insurance. At least this guy knew what he was talking about, EXCEPT, GET THIS: I told him how I sanitize, and he looked shocked and said "liquid chlorine's illegal in Alabama, it's very toxic." I replied "well what's in trichlor or cal hypo? It's all chlorine, except those are stabilized forms." He didn't know how to reply to that so that was the end of that. Boy there's a lot of ignorance when it comes to chlorination and pools!

Trichlor, trichlor, gosh it's been a long time since I've had to use anything other than bleach. Believe it or not, the water's been sitting at half-mast for five days now, and once or twice I sprinkled some bleach into the water, and it's holding at 10 ppm -- no circulation and no green swamp. So maybe I'm okay if I put a couple of pool cover pumps in the water at either end for circulation and just use bleach as it's filling?

He left a brochure of liner wall and tile patterns and I'm getting pretty excited about choosing one -- mine's been bleached out for many years. The new ones are so handsome! I'm going to get the one that's like cut glass, a darker blue, with a handsome tile pattern/colors.

Hey, thanks for your input! I'll let you know how this all turns out as time moves forward.

Oh, and thanks for the tip on that skimmer plate! Also, I think I'm just going to have that main drain stay closed -- why invite problems (although I wouldn't mind the extra circulation).

[aylad]

Sounds like you're on your way, picking out a new liner would be exciting!! When I picked out the one we have, I was just glancing at samples to humor DH--I didn't realize that he was going to sign the contract the next day!! The one we have is not too bad, but I think I'd do it differently next time.

Watermom's idea of trichlor is a good one if your pH isn't already low, but you still probably need to add a low "loading" dose of CYA even if you use the trichlor, since it'll take awhile to get it up to 20. I would go ahead and have the guy quote a chlorinator for you too, while you're at it....granted, there are only certain times that they're good to use, but it's sure nice to have them when the conditions are right!!! When I'm not using trichlor in mine (which is all winter and every other summer, or when I finally get my CYA up where I want it), I just leave it empty and the flow dial turned all the way up to 5--that way it just flushes itself out and I don't have a problem with it freezing. You can hear water gurgling inside of it, but it is not louder than the pump, unless you put your ear right down to it...then again, I have a waterfall about 4 feet away, and it's hard to hear anything around it except rushing water.

Let us know how this turns out!!

Janet

[elsie]

Janet, how would you do your liner differently? I've got to make a decision the next day or two and it's driving me nuts (but good nuts).

The adjuster came out last night, took pictures, and said a check will be in the mail to me today for the liner, the new pvc at the pump, the two market umbrellas, and even $100 for fill water (I called my water board to see how much it will be). Alfa Insurance is hands down the best insurer on this planet. No quibbling, no questions, they just take care of the customer. I'm on cloud nine right now, as I was expecting to have to replace the liner next year on my own anyway. This is a windfall (pun intended) of many thousands of dollars.

I know darker liners are "in" (although I'm not one to follow the crowd), but I'm thinking it will be difficult perhaps to see the dirt to vacuum up since I vac manually. Fortunately, unless there's a major storm, I have my jets set in such a way that in either end most debris collects in just a couple of spots so I guess I won't use this as a defining factor. My biggest challenge is deciding between aqua and a darker, or true, blue (navyish). The one I have (that has no pattern left it's so old) puts off a light aqua color, and I've enjoyed that, so I'm a bit nervous to switch to the darker blue. It would be nice to have something different, but only if I LOVE it! I think I've got it narrowed down to Inspiration or Medallion (http://taraliners.com/). One is more aqua and the other a handsome more true blue. Initially I was thinking of getting the Arizona or Arcadia but the cut glass look is a trifle busy. Help!!!!!!!!!!!

[Vinyl_Guy]

I don't know anything about main drains, because my IG pool doesn't have one, so hopefully somebody else will come along to give you useful information about that.


Yikes what a mess. Seen a few trees, tree branches (actually big limbs) too take out liners.


1. Should I have whoever replaces the liner see what's what with that main drain?

If you've been given any advice or told you need it for circulation, it's really ideal to have it looked at now (see next quote).The previous owner may have plugged it in an attempt to stop a leak or for who knows what reasons. It could be just fine, and only needs to be unplugged to reactivate it. So for that reason I'd have it checked out. You could gain the use of it for only the additional cost (if any) of a pressure test. A pressure test is a must, to make absolutely sure there's nothing wrong with it. If something is wrong physically with the "pot" (the body under the drain cover), it's the only time to fix it. I normally didn't charge to pressure test a main drain when doing a liner replacement. But that was me.


Might I get a lot more water circulation with it open?

Well this is a question for the ages. One of the very smart poster here might be able to explain it or answer it. Think of it this way. If your pump is fully primed, would an additional line add more volume to the flow? Or would it just reduce the suction on the existing lines already in use (skimmers and "sidewall" suction), thus spreading it out amongst more sources of suction? A lot of things can influence whether volume changes. Power of your pump. How many returns you have, because getting the water back in the pool is also related to how much a pump will "draw". Bottom line when your talking circulation, we're looking for the time it takes to draw the entire volume of the pool out, into the filter, and back into the pool (turn over). Or GPM gallons per minute, in relation to your pool size , . The more GPM effects particulate matter, more GPM means more particulate matter being skimmed, sucked and filtered. More GPM also means your chlorine , if put it in the skimmer, or in an auto-feeder will output more, but since most auto-feeders have a "choke/dial" this isn't a factor. The most that would happen is you'd have to actually turn your feeder back a notch. Unless your auto-feeder while fully "open" wasn't able to inject enough chlorine into the pool, more volume will help that. But that's rarely the case. How more volume affects "floating" type chlornation or manually adding chlorine, is a question for the chemical experts on this forum. I'm a nuts and bolts guy ;).



Would any debris that gets sucked into it then land in the sand filter or the secondary trap at the pump?

Yes, the same as any other point of suction (skimmer or "sidewall" suction). If your finding yourself vacuuming the "hopper" (bottom square area) of the pool, it might help. Anything that finds it way down there and then near the drain will get sucked into your pump basket, and anything too small for the pump basket will go into the filter, same as the skimmers. With a proper lid on the drain, the opening for debris is actually smaller then the plumbing in a skimmer. Unless you've got additional devices on in your skimmer for such things. So the "Barbie Doll" in the suction line scenario is less likely with a main drain. Again that's with a proper drain cover, which leads to your next question.



And, what about safety, that concerns me after hearing stories of children being eviscerated at commercial pools by the main drain. That said, I wonder where the leakage problem was?

Saftely wise if it's a standard vinyl liner main drain "pot". You need (probably by law in your state), an anti-vortex cover. Do not under any circumstances (if the line is reactivated) have a cover that looks like a "grate" installed. The cover should have no openings on top,it be domed and only have openings around its edges.

Picture of typical anti-vortex cover (http://www.webachatfrance.fr/Photos/reel/Grille-bonde-anti-vortex-HAYWARD.jpg) (it is "domed").



Absolutely do not have a main drain cover that resembles anything like this, with a flat and slotted surface!!!!!!
http://www.val-pakproducts.com/images/v50-100.gif

The theory being, if you can cover all the openings you could create a suction that would hold something down. Till the pump lost prime and wasn't drawing any more. The harder it is to do this, the less likely it is to happen. Obviously one design is far superior to another. Flat is easy to cover, domed is much harder, especially if the openings are spread to the outside edges. It's pretty darn hard to cover all the openings of an anti-vortex cover with just your body. Cloths and bathing suites are different though, and provide an entirely different set of problems. A "T"shirt for example could easily cover off all points of suction, on almost any drain cover. I've tried to cover a running drain (anti-vortex) with my belly just to see if I could, I couldn't , I probably might be able to now, but that's a different story ;) . The only way to completely avoid this awful scenario is to not have a main drain. That is known for sure.




If it was in an underground lateral, I wouldn't want that main drain reopened. But would that main drain lateral be right now open to the other laterals anyway, which would tell us the leakage problem is definitely not in the main drain lateral but rather right at that main drain site? I don't know how everything connects underground. I guess the liner people would/should know?

I'm assuming by "lateral" you mean a line that is connected with another one underground, meaning it does not run directly to your pump suction all on it's own. Yeah your probably right it's not the best scenario to have the main drain "coupled" with another suction line underground and not within your control to divert or change that situation. Smart pool owner.

Here's a some scenarios (assuming a lot about your pool though, ie skimmers and such).


Reason for having a lateral suction line to the main drain: One way of safe guarding against the problem mentioned above (things getting stuck on the main drain) is to have an additional source of suction "coupled" with the main drain. If the main drain became "covered" by something, the other source of suction would prevent it from holding that "thing" down (I hate the imagery so I'll use "things"). Commercial pools are designed this way with two drains any place where one is needed, and far enough apart where one "thing" can't cover them both.

Sometimes in a typical vinyl pool the main drain is "plumbed" into your skimmer body. Check and see if there is an additional "opening" at the bottom of your skimmer. Are there two "holes" at the bottom?. What happens with this configuration is only the additional residual "pressure" in the skimmer body draws a small flow from the main drain (if any). If there are two holes, is one plugged, either with a threaded white PCV plug, or a black rubber plug? If it's plugged with a rubber plug I highly suspect this scenario is how you main drain is plumbed. A plug (black rubber) both in the drain itself and the skimmer body were added when the drain failed. If it's a white threaded plug (sometimes screwed in from below the skimmer), it might not be the case. If there's only one hole in the bottom of your skimmer, then this is not the case (most likely).

The other scenario (much like what your thinking), might exist, especially if your skimmer only has one hole at the bottom. Or has two but one is plugged with a threaded white PVC fitting. That is the suction line for the main drain is connected with another suction line. How many lines end up at the front of your pump, where the suction is? One? Two? If it's only one (and the skimmer plumbing scenario can be ruled out) then yes some where under the ground the main drain line was connected to one of your other "known" suction lines. Where and how not even a pool man might know. Once it's buried it's hard to tell. It could be right under where the lines come up. It could have been the place at which the least amount of pipe was needed to achieve this.

Were you having a hard time keeping the water level in the pool previous to the "Storm"?

Typical symptoms of this scenario of one part of a suction line being bad while another is not are this:

1. Hard to prime the pump (get it going). When the lines have drained back own to the water level (assuming your pump is above that), the leak will now draw "air" from the surrounding ground. Once it get's going it could have enough feed from the the good "section" of pipe to remain primed. Now the water pulls past the leak and into the pump. Thus not letting any "exit" the pool.

2. The pool leaks when it's not running, but doesn't leak when it is running. When the bad suction line sits with out water being drawn past the leak, it slowly leaches water out of the pool. Once the pump is primed and running it creates enough flow to stop this from happening (as described above).

3. Occasionaly bubbles in the pump (not afterwards that would indicate air from another source further down the "line"). If the window into your pump body develops small bubbles sporadically then a source of air is available at some point "infront of the pump. Lots of times it's the threaded fitting at the pump front or a valve, but sometimes it can be a small leak in suction lines that have two "lateraled" sources.

4. Pump loses prime eventually. Same scenario as the bubbles, just more severe and the pump loses prime completely.

[Vinyl_Guy]

Con't...........

Something else:

If in front of your pump there is more then one line, and a valve is closed (and always has been) then I highly suspect this is the main drain line. A plug was placed in the main drain line to prevent water from seeping out, and the valve was closed to prevent the pump from drawing air (as described above).

Your initial thought about the drain are spot on.

Anything additional under the ground, out of your control (laterally plumbed and not individually) can be a nightmare.

If you have any questions, it might be helpful to look over what you have first and describe the pool as best you can. IE. how many skimmers, valves, lines, returns, "holes in the bottom of skimmers" etc etc.

Just what your think is pertinent to a follow up question.

Good luck....

[aylad]

Elsie,

I'm glad that your insurance company is not being a pain about the whole thing...and it's great news that they're replacing your liner too!!


The link you posted for the liners will not work for me..don't know what the problem is. My liner is a light aqua/blue with black outlined blue squares around the top of the waterline. The problem with it being so light is that during pollen season (which is almost year round here), the yellow in the water combines with the liner to look medium to dark green......I know my pool is clean, but sometimes it's hard to tell by looking at it. Next time I think I'm going with a darker (true) blue.

Janet

[elsie]

Janet, you could try taraliners.com. I had copied the link but you don't need the extra slashes, etc. What do you think about the Arcadia, Arizona or Medallion? Although, as you'll read more about below, the Medallion in my brochure is a more true blue than is depicted on the webpage, which appears more aqua. You can click on the liner and bring up a better picture. The Arcadia's got a better/higher il on the sides. So you don't think the Arcadia or Arizona are "too busy" and might drive one's eyes crazy? One of them was actually my first choice, but then I thought maybe they were too much.

Now I'm getting an uneasy feeling. Installer was wrong again. He said all the Tara liners were 20/28 mil, 28 on bottom and 20 on walls. But I've just finished several correspondences with someone at Tara and only the patterns asterisked are more than a straight 20 mil, and the few that are, are 20/27, but the higher mil is on the sides, not the bottom as the installer said. Also, the brochure I have isn't current, and the Tara contact told me to use the website when choosing, yet there's a disclaimer there that says the colors as depicted may not be true. And indeed, when I compare a color in the brochure to the same one on the website, the colors are way, way off. So now I'm getting frustrated. I re-emailed the Tara contact and asked if they have a current brochure they can send me.

I think I'm going to get other bids now. If the installer is telling customers wrong stuff, well that doesn't sit with me very well. Geesh I already have the feeling there's a ton of incompetence out there and I have to be extremely careful and not rush this, albeit I need to get this done before the leaves start cascading down end of September.

Vinyl Guy,

Thanks so much, and I'll print your posts and bring home to review tonight and look at my system and respond tomorrow. But I can tell you one thing, the cover on my main drain is most definitely a grate-type one. I can see now that it's probably wise to just keep it closed and get a new vortex cover.

[aylad]

Man, I really hate it when you type a long, detailed post and the computer burps and it goes away.......................

Anyway, of your three choices, I definitely like the Medallion best--that's what I was talking about when I said I planned to go blue for my next liner. I like that one a lot. On first glance, I like the Arcadia second, only because it's the more aqua colored, but then when I looked at it on the other page (the one just with samples, no actual pools), the bottom looks more dark blue than it did on the other page, which makes me like it the same as the Medallion. Same thing with the Arizona...it does look like a pretty busy pattern to me, and I don't care for it much in the aqua, but I'm wondering about the color change from one page to the other? If it's dark blue, it might not be so bad.

Anyway, those are purely my opinions....just remember, you asked! :D

Janet

[elsie]

Oh that's annoying when you lose a post. Since I can only post from work and have to fit them in when I can, I usually compose in Word then drop it into the dialogue box and send off right away.

I just called the most respected pool/spa place in town (they don't do liners and I knew that, but then thought I'd call for liner recommendation) and asked who they recommend, and they gave me the name of Jack at Professional Pools, a guy who I had called last Saturday and who was going to come over last night but the adjuster was coming and now we're playing phone tag). Hollywood gave him rave reviews. So I will meet with him hopefully very soon. Recommendations like this are very meaningful, very important. For all I know the guy I've been talking about in these posts doesn't do good work. It's so hard to know unless you get real live recommendations/references. And in all likelihood he'll use a different liner outfit or even have multiple ones and I will have more choices (yeah, just what I need?). It sure would be optimal to be able to see the actual pool with any given pattern/color. Then you know you wouldn't err on the wrong color!

Hey, thanks for your input!

[Vinyl_Guy]

Vinyl Guy,

Thanks so much, and I'll print your posts and bring home to review tonight and look at my system and respond tomorrow. But I can tell you one thing, the cover on my main drain is most definitely a grate-type one. I can see now that it's probably wise to just keep it closed and get a new vortex cover.

No problem, glad to be of service.

You don't have to be 100% informed , but having a basic working knowledge of what you've got and what your contractor is suggesting for options can make a world of difference. It's a lot to take in, take your time, I didn't mean to overwhelm you.

If the main drain isn't functioning, and your not going to have it repaired (which is very very common considering the cost usually). It's best to have the "pot" removed and have it resurfaced in that area. There's no sense in introducing points of possible failure , that have no purpose. The ring, screws, plates and gaskets that seal off the "pot", are all possible failure points in the future. So is the pot itself, and the pipes and fittings that the water leads into. If it's bad, and your not going to have it repaired, I highly recommend just eliminating it. The less to go wrong, means less goes wrong.

Plus it's much easier to vacuum the bottom with no drain ;).

A good and honest liner technician has nothing to hide from an informed customer. Any time you don't go into something blind, do your research, learn what you can, and ask questions, the outcome is bound to be better.

Good Luck (but you'll need less of it, if your informed :) ).

[elsie]

Very smart advice to just remove it and resurface as you said, very VERY smart to do now when the pool is empty and liner's being swapped out. The liner guy that I'm now probably not going to go with simply because some of his 'facts' were incorrect (a big tipoff that something's not right--he should certainly know the mil/gauge of the liner he's pushing as well as which mil is on the sides and which on the bottom) said there's probably vermiculite behind the liner, not concrete, can this substance be resurfaced? I always thought it was concrete because it's so hard. My only experience with vermiculite is that it was the tiny goldish *soft and loose* stuff (like confetti) that was in the attic of my old house in Mpls. (before I moved here to Alabama).

I'm so glad you hopped into this thread. I will most certainly have that drain cap filled in/however it's done, assuming it's doable. Then I can dismiss any potential problems down the road/getting sucked into it and becoming part of the Alabama underground landscape. Umm, but how is it filled in since there's a hollow pipe below it? Sort of like when I go to caulk something when the crack is too big you have to put something in there or the caulk would just go down down down?

[Vinyl_Guy]

Very smart advice to just remove it and resurface as you said, very VERY smart to do now when the pool is empty and liner's being swapped out. The liner guy that I'm now probably not going to go with simply because some of his 'facts' were incorrect (a big tipoff that something's not right--he should certainly know the mil/gauge of the liner he's pushing as well as which mil is on the sides and which on the bottom) said there's probably vermiculite behind the liner, not concrete, can this substance be resurfaced? I always thought it was concrete because it's so hard. My only experience with vermiculite is that it was the tiny goldish *soft and loose* stuff (like confetti) that was in the attic of my old house in Mpls. (before I moved here to Alabama).

I'm so glad you hopped into this thread. I will most certainly have that drain cap filled in/however it's done, assuming it's doable. Then I can dismiss any potential problems down the road/getting sucked into it and becoming part of the Alabama underground landscape. Umm, but how is it filled in since there's a hollow pipe below it? Sort of like when I go to caulk something when the crack is too big you have to put something in there or the caulk would just go down down down?

Vermiculite can be patched very easily. Most liner technicians will have a bag or two to touch up spots here and there when they remove a liner. I described it like this to customers, it dries hard, about as hard as leaving a sheet cake out for a month. Very hard but when broken it crumbles. It's used so that if there's any heaving or failure underground you don't end up with a very sharp and rigid broken edge, like a buckled side walk. There's an edge but when push comes to shove it crumbles and breaks rather then tearing through the liner. I've dove into pools with a rubber mallet and a broad board and pounded out imperfections in aged pools. It can always be "manipulated" since it never fully "sets up" like concrete. A bowling ball works marvelous on protrusions, but you have to have expereince in how much of a brunt force a liner can take.

Anyway........

Here's what the your main drain probably looks like:
http://ledfordpools.com/main_drain.jpg

It's a basically a pot with a female threaded inlet (there's usually one on the bottom too). A flat surface on top that receives a cork gasket and a ring, both of equal size and shape, with screw holes through them. The screw hole pattern in the pot matches the ring and and gasket's screw hole pattern. The grate or vortex lid is mounted separately. The whole thing is no larger then a sauce pan.

All that needs to be done is to dig a little bit around it through the vermiculite. Find the "pipe" and cut it. The pipe remains buried forever, it's below the the surface of the liner and even the layer of vermiculite. Remove the pot, fill the hole in with some good fill that doesn't have any organic matter in it (clean fill). A 5 gallon bucket is usually enough. Tamp it very well because the pressure of the water will want to compress and compact it. Leaving this fill just even with the bottom of the existing vermiculite. The "verm" is usually about 2" (inches) thick on average. Mix about one bag of verm up, patch and "feather" it in with the rest of the bottom. At that point it's much like a repair to drywall, no liner technician worth his weight would bat an eye at doing this, what's charged is the only difference.

Now it is more work, the labor and drying time and so forth. But he does save time when installing the liner. There's no gasket and screws to fiddle with and make sure are sealed absolutely perfect. He also doesn't have to spend money on a new ring, a cork gasket, and a vortex lid. Which is the case if he quoted you "all new" for those items.

So it's sort of a trade off for him. More work at first, then less work. Some money for materials, but then a savings on less parts. But less problems to worry about in the long run, and less possibility for something he installed to have a problem.

I did it for free, because for me the trade off of not having it, versus a customers want to not spend more money (can't blame them) was worth it (to me). Who's going to opt for something that costs more, if I have to guarantee the sealing of it anyway (for a certain time)? And for me not having it is a bonus. So other then extremely outstanding circumstances (concrete for example), I did it for nothing if they wanted it gone forever.

What he's going to charge if he decides it's an "extra" is anyone's guess. I"d push him (a little) to do it for free, he knows it's good for him and it's about a wash when it comes to time and materials.

Unless he tries to soak you, I'd have the darn thing removed.

[shadowman]

..... probably vermiculite behind the liner, not concrete, can this substance be resurfaced? I always thought it was concrete because it's so hard. My only experience with vermiculite is that it was the tiny goldish *soft and loose* stuff (like confetti) that was in the attic of my old house in Mpls.

In my IG vinyl, the vertical sides are galvanized steel and the hopper bottom is packed sand. I suppose they could use vermiculite in place of sand but as you suspected, it is granular and wouldn't be on the verticals.

[Vinyl_Guy]

In my IG vinyl, the vertical sides are galvanized steel and the hopper bottom is packed sand. I suppose they could use vermiculite in place of sand but as you suspected, it is granular and wouldn't be on the verticals.

Yes all vertical sides or "walls" are some form of construction. Whether galvinized steel, aluminum, or polymer, or other structural technique .

Everything else, the angled deep end, below the walls, the slope from the shallow end to the deep end, and all the flat "bottoms" are some sort of troweled material. At first it was sand, sometimes stone dust, sometimes a mixture of sand and grout , and more recently (historically) a layer of vermiculite. In rare cases I've seen concrete. Any one of them is adequate once the liner is installed an filled with water. A more substantial "bottom" material will hold its shape better though, over the years, and if there's a catastrophic failure.

But I've taken liners out with all sand bottoms that are as pristine as when the pool was installed. It depends more on how much care the builder took compacting these areas before applying a final layer of any material. The draw back to sand is when a pool is abandoned and empty for a long stretch. It begins to dry and collapse. Verm will do the same thing but it takes much longer.

[shadowman]

The draw back to sand is when a pool is abandoned and empty for a long stretch. It begins to dry and collapse. Verm will do the same thing but it takes much longer.

In my part of Oregon, if a vinyl pool was abandoned and empty through winter, the liner would be floating on a new pond with a nice sand bottom. ;)

[elsie]

By the way, I should retitle this post to "Every Pool Owner With An Old Liner's Best Dream." I mean, how often does one get an old liner replaced for free?

Vinyl Guy,

I looked at my set up last night to confirm what I thought I had: in the main skimmer there is a second port which is capped with white pvc. I've always wondered what that was all about since it's not in use, so to speak.

At the pump (although the piping is all broken up), there are two underground lines (pipes) that come up: one is connected to the sand filter right below the multiport; and the other one has the water ball valve and it's connected to that secondary skimmer basket, because when I go to clean it out I always turn the water valve off to slow the water pouring out of it after I open the lid.

When you mention "window into your pump body" do you mean the clear plastic lid to the secondary skimmer basket at the pump? I don't have any other windows…but I can say that it's tight, i.e., I never see bubbles in it. I think the circulatory system is intact as it should be, and it's just a matter now of permanently eliminating that main drain or, at the very least put a vortex cover on it. But, I do prefer and will aim to have it removed altogether and the patchwork done as you have suggested in order to preclude leakage problems in the future.

Once again, I so much appreciate your latest post about how the main drain should be handled. And, the information so that I can present a feasible argument to the liner guy as to what should be done and why it shouldn't cost much more, if anything.

I am very glad to say that the liner guy who comes highly recommended finally called me back this morning (he's been busy getting his daughter into college) and he's coming over tomorrow morning. Tonight I will print your latest posts and review/commit to memory so I can "talk the talk" with Jack in the a.m. If I should fail, my back up is to whip out the print out and let him read it for himself. Nonetheless, I am so much more comfortable going into this with what I have learned from you. Knowledge IS everything, even a rudimentary working knowledge (which is my best hope, ha!). Thanks again for all your help (everyone's help), and I'll let you know Monday how my meeting with Jack tomorrow went.

[Vinyl_Guy]

By the way, I should retitle this post to "Every Pool Owner With An Old Liner's Best Dream." I mean, how often does one get an old liner replaced for free?

Vinyl Guy,

I looked at my set up last night to confirm what I thought I had: in the main skimmer there is a second port which is capped with white pvc. I've always wondered what that was all about since it's not in use, so to speak.

It's actual original purpose had several uses, one being a different diameter line. One is usually 1 1/2", and the other 2". Using one of them to plumb the maindrain line into, is just a method some builders opted for. If a pool requires more volume of water to be circulated the larger "hole" accepted the fittings for larger pipe. I was just trying to figure out if that's where your main drain line went. But if it's capped, then we can eliminate that. If it had a black plug in it, I'd would highly suspect that it was plumbed there and was "eliminated".



At the pump (although the piping is all broken up), there are two underground lines (pipes) that come up: one is connected to the sand filter right below the multiport; and the other one has the water ball valve and it's connected to that secondary skimmer basket, because when I go to clean it out I always turn the water valve off to slow the water pouring out of it after I open the lid.

Ok it's hard to tell what you mean by the description. This was bound to happen.

But consider this next time you look at it. If a pipe is not connected to a multi-port then it's probably not coming from, or going to, the pool. If it's connected to the "body" of the sand filter itself it's probably some sort of drain, or backwash line. The multi-port takes the water from the pump (you can probably trace that line) puts it into the sand filter, the water returns to the multi-port (from the sand filter) and is then put back into the pool (by the multi-port, hence it's name). No piping (usually and with out knowing your exact system), that comes from the body of the sand filter is normally coming from or going to the pool itself. It's usually exiting the body of the sand filter itself to the "outside" in the form of a drainage, or backwashing.

So it's still hard to tell what you have as far as how many suction lines . Between it being broken and you trying to remember what it was like, me not seeing , or knowing the exact nature of the equipment I'm still not sure if you have only 1 suction line and 1 "return line. Or more then 2 of each, or any variant in between.

If you turning a ball valve to keep the water from overflowing, to empty a basket, it sounds like your system might be below the level of the pool. Is that the case with your pump and filter?



When you mention "window into your pump body" do you mean the clear plastic lid to the secondary skimmer basket at the pump? I don't have any other windows…but I can say that it's tight, i.e., I never see bubbles in it. I think the circulatory system is intact as it should be, and it's just a matter now of permanently eliminating that main drain or, at the very least put a vortex cover on it. But, I do prefer and will aim to have it removed altogether and the patchwork done as you have suggested in order to preclude leakage problems in the future.

Yes I'm speaking of that second "skimmer". I tend to call the square opening at the pool that receives the water the "skimmer", and the "strainer" inside the pump body underneath the window, the "basket". But there is another basket at the "skimmer". The nomenclature isn't rigid with pools ;). Returns are called "jets" by some and so forth.

Either way that's a good sign, if your system previous to this mess, didn't have bubbles in that "window" then it's a good possibility the suction line(s) are intact. How that was done while there's a main drain sitting down there is anyone's guess. There's obviously a line coming from it, where it leads to or connects to is anyone's guess, it might have been cut underground long ago just below the pump and buried. It could have originally come up out of the ground as an individual line, and when it failed, was cut and buried for aesthetic and/or easier access to the system.



Once again, I so much appreciate your latest post about how the main drain should be handled. And, the information so that I can present a feasible argument to the liner guy as to what should be done and why it shouldn't cost much more, if anything.

Why have it? That's the bottom line. If it's not working, is a potential failing point in the liner, there's no reason not to eliminate it from the whole scenario. As much as I'd like to see you have it done for free, even a nominal fee for removing it is worth it (for you). I didn't charge because a nominal fee wasn't worth the trade off of less hassles.



I am very glad to say that the liner guy who comes highly recommended finally called me back this morning (he's been busy getting his daughter into college) and he's coming over tomorrow morning. Tonight I will print your latest posts and review/commit to memory so I can "talk the talk" with Jack in the a.m. If I should fail, my back up is to whip out the print out and let him read it for himself. Nonetheless, I am so much more comfortable going into this with what I have learned from you. Knowledge IS everything, even a rudimentary working knowledge (which is my best hope, ha!). Thanks again for all your help (everyone's help), and I'll let you know Monday how my meeting with Jack tomorrow went.

Whoa whoa don't be printing out "anonymous" posts from forums, and shaking them in his face ;). It's hardly a replacement for being there, seeing your system and giving you advice. As maybe a trusted neighbor , boy friend, or other acquaintance might. Some times the last thing a contractor wants to hear is something like: "my father told me...." or "my husband said.....", never mind "this basically anonymous guy wrote to me in a forum that......."

There's a lot I could be incorrect about, or is only partially accurate, simply for the fact that the details of your system are totally unknown to me. I'm going with opinions based on assuming a lot of things. The two holes in the skimmer for example, at the time I was only trying to figure out where your drain line was going. Their purpose and why they're there, was too complicated to get into. They're used for several different things, not just plumbing main drains into, and when they were used for that there was a a diverter valve that sometimes accompanied them. Sort of a buttlefly type set up that sat on the bottom of the skimmer.

I even forgot about that till now ;). Many of these butterfly valves became detached or broken over the years and pools lingered with virtually no flow from the maindrains. See how relying on what I wrote so far, could "backfire". ;).

Best just to say "I've read". Quote me if you like, but it's not going to carry that much weight with some one who's actually there...

But you are on the right track. Your trying to get a handle on what's going on out there. Ask him to give you a quick walk through. Most technicians don't mind. It's not algebra (no offense) , it's in/out. It's left/right. Suction/Return. But unless someone walks you through it at least once, it can be confusing.

If this goes on any longer, a picture and the parts numbers off your equipment would help us a lot. I still have no idea what kind of sand filter or pump you have. They're all essentially the same, but some are odd, or work differently.

There's just so much I can impart to you, and so much that's going to be entirely accurate with out actually being there. But your trying, and reading.Looking up your part numbers online and reading the manuals (when available) helps too.

Let us know what happens. I'm unemployed right now and going back to school so I've got some free time. It makes me feel much better when I'm helpful and productive. Mowing the lawn only provides just so much satisfaction in these areas.

[elsie]

Roger that, you're absolutely right, I should *not* give him the print out. Diplomacy such as "I've read..." is infinitely more appropriate.

Heading out of work now, I'll check in on Monday.

[Vinyl_Guy]

Roger that, you're absolutely right, I should *not* give him the print out. Diplomacy such as "I've read..." is infinitely more appropriate.

Heading out of work now, I'll check in on Monday.

Wheh that makes me feel better....... (for both of us).

If I thought something I was telling you was 100% accurate I'd day so, but I've been sprinkling my posts with lots of "probablys", "most likelys" , and "usuallys". If only to err on the side of caution.

Have a good weekend.....

[elsie]

As it turns out, the liner guy most recommended is the same guy who installed my present liner about 10 years ago (4 years before I bought the property), and unlike all the other liner outfits I met or spoke with, he was far more knowledgeable and paid infinitely more attention to details, and could answer all my questions, and even had real-live liner samples, so I hired him. He apparently used to build pools, but now just does liners -- a lot less hassle he said after 28 years in the business.

The main drain will be history. He's not charging extra to fill it in and do the patchwork. He thought he remembered that the walls of my pool are wood construction. Insatiably curious, after he left I sliced a wall of the liner and through the foam barrier and sure enough, it's a very hard, very even type of wood. I asked him wouldn't wood rot? He said no, surprisingly. But, he did say that my pool was poorly built. :( There's going to be significant patching because you can see the divits in the deep end walls that have developed over time -- this concerns him a little. Still, with the new liner, foam, patchwork within reason, removal of main drain, and restoring most of the pvc's at the pump, he's charging hundreds less than the competition -- $2675. (By the way, I mis spoke earlier--plus I asked liner guy--there's only one incoming pipe that comes from underground with the water-valve that connects to the 2ndary skimmer basket, and then the one outgoing pipe that connects to/comes from the multi-port (not the sand filter as I reported) and returns the water to the pool -- and yes, my pump is far below sea level.
Janet, I ended up (with some angst) choosing the Santa Fay liner style from taraliners.com. How can you really know without seeing an installation? I even put the brochure on the bottom of the shallow end (water's still in there and not green, even after 12 days now) and stood on it but it was of no help. The liner guy also said a 20/20 mil for my pool is actually better than a 28/20 because the thicker the liner the less pliable it will be in all the nooks and crannies/where the walls and floor meet etc.; and the warranty (20 years pro-rated, two years full) is the same.

I'll let you know how it turns out, and no doubt will need some start up assistance as I try to balance the new water. I'm going to both use the backyard hose and run a longer hose from the front so I can fill it up as quickly as possible. I think I may just wait to chlorinate or add CYA until it's filled and the pump is running. I don't think the water will go crazy green in 2-3 days, especially when it will be on the colder side. Probably the first thing I should do is backwash, as I know there's debris in the pipes, then add half the CYA, add bleach, check the TA and pH and go from there.

All I can say is, how fortunate I am to have incurred this damage. This guy, too, was flabergasted that insurance is paying for replacement and not pro-rating or, at the very least, speaking with a pool person. I mean, his mouth dropped open and he was speechless. I feel a bit like I've won the lottery when, usually, I never win. :)

[Vinyl_Guy]

This is good news, he sounds like the right man for the job.

I had a feeling the right one wouldn't charge for the removal of the maindrain.

A couple of thoughts. The walls might be a masonite product rather then actual wood. But the concept is the same.

I suspect the construction of the pool is probably what we used to refer to as the "popular mechanics" design. Lots of these wood pools were built for many years and are fairly common. It's sort of a home owner's design that can be constructed out of materials purchase at a lumber yard, and with only a few pool specific items added. Coping/extrusion and the liner being the two biggest ones.

The biggest factor when replacing a liner with these pools is actually how it was orginally constructed. Many of these "wood wall" pools were constructed in a way that makes removing the water from them precarious sometimes. Essentially when the pool is first built it is filled with water and backfilled behind the walls at the same time. This is how the pool is able to be built out of wood walls, with less then adequate support . As the pressure of the water filling the liner reaches the areas of the walls, the back fill (dirt) is also added, thus equalizing the pressure. If the reverse were done, and the pool was backfilled with out the water in it, it would be too much pressure. The same goes with the water if the back fill isn't added.

Afterward the walls become much more stiffened with the addition of a deck. Especially if it's tied into some type of coping which is attached o the walls. It's the first liner replacement or the first time the pool looses a significant amount of water (off the shallow end) that how much strength the deck has given the walls, is known.

Let me ask you this:

Did he ask you to not drain the water out of the pool and to actually keep an eye not it, as he awaits the delivery of your liner?

Did he mention that there's a chance that re-filling the pool maybe needed to be done via trucked in water?

More importantly, how much water is in the pool now, and when is the estimated time of the replacement?

I ask because sometimes when water slips well below the middle height of a wood wall pool, "bending" or "bowing can happen. The middle of the longest stretches of wall are obviously the most vulnerable. Once this happens it's imperative to continue with the replacement as expediently as possible. Empty wood wall pools are not good to have in that condition for long periods. Some hold up fine, some "bow" a little each time water gets below the walls, whether through a leak or liner replacement. It's best to keep water in the pool right up to the day the liner is being replaced. The shortest amount of time the pool is void of water, is what an installer should be shooting for. Unless he know the pools ability to hold it's own with out water in it.

Since your pool has had a liner replacement at some point we know it has withstood being empty at least once. Which is a darn good sign.

As far as a 20/20 vs. a 28/20 he is correct, 20 mill walled liners do conform more easily to variations. Are the corners of your pool (the actual dimensional corners or "shape"), wide sweeping arcs or closer to 90 degree corners with perhaps a small "clip" or short 45 degree angled section? Because this is where a 20 mill walled liner is most effective in getting a better fit, via it's stretching. If the actual corners of your pool aren't arcing corners, and more abrupt it probably is the better choice.

The only draw back to a 20 mil wall is the fact that (not commonly known), a liner most often fails above the water line. Due to UV damage and chemicals gathering on the surface. Between these two factors and the liner not staying as elastic from not being underwater are the biggest reason for failure. That was the reason for the thicker wall but yet not a thicker "floor". It's not a huge factor, and liners for years were all 20 (20/20). Hence the equivalent warranty. I think it was more of "upgrade" type marketing move by the liner manufacturers. Would I recommend one , sure , thicker is always better for the walls, but if it would have hampered a proper and correct installation, I would never opt for one, nor recommend one.

Any whoo........ just a few more thing to consider now that we know more about what's going on. Nothing bad, just more info imparted to you via this forum.

Good Luck.

[Vinyl_Guy]

Any news?

The anticipation is killing me......

[elsie]

Umm, some things I can answer and others I can't. He did not ask me to not drain the rest of the water, but as he was leaving I asked him to please give me a two-day head's up that he was coming to replace the liner as I would then drain it. I've read here before that it's not the best of ideas to leave a pool empty, liner notwithstanding. Also, since I daily blow the deck off from mother nature's bounties, I thought it a safer thing to leave some water in it. It hasn't happened often, but at least several times over the last 6 years I have inadvertently fallen into the pool, usually when in a hurry blowing the deck off and cutting the rounded corners too quickly or, once, in the winter when it was covered and I cut a corner too close and fell ON TOP OF the cover (I bolted off just as fast).

In any event, we had a big rain event so that filled the water back up to the return jets…Still haven't heard from the liner guy so yesterday called his office and was met with one very discourteous staff. Seemed I was putting her out asking her when she thought my liner might go in. "Well, it takes two weeks just to get it in" to which I replied "umm, Tara's website insists they deliver within 3-4 days…" then "well you know we've had a lot of rain…" In truth, we've had one rain event that lasted two days. You'd think it would take more energy to be nasty/uncooperative than to simply be genuine, and courteous. I don't get customer service these days, but then I don't get a lot of things anymore.

I'm getting concerned because leaves are starting to fall. While the big oaks shouldn't come down until October, even November here, there's enough smaller trees that have begun. The schemer in me is thinking why can't I have the liner put in, and virtually cover it with my solid winter cover right away? I can add CYA and bleach under the cover through the skimmer, and take water samples as well (either at the skimmer or even the 2ndary skimmer basket at the pump -- heck, it's all the same recirculating water). With the cover on to block out UV and the pump running continuously, does anyone see any flaws in my plan? It should hold chlorine quite well because it's covered, even as I do the incremental CYA dosing/checking. Of course I will put just enough bleach in to raise it to 2 ppm until that CYA starts to show up in testing and then re-chlorinate appropriately. However, with this new liner I'm not going to shock and immediately cover for the winter anymore as that high shock level remains the same month after month. From now on I will shock and then let the CL level fall back down to 5 or so and then monitor throughout the winter (I don't officially close my pool, just cover and run the pump when the temps drop below freezing). I do *not* want to jeopardize the brand spanking new liner pattern!

[Vinyl_Guy]

Must have missed your post sorry. I don't know how, I actually posted somewhere else before now, and after your last post.

Don't remove any water from the pool unless he specifically asks you to do so on his "authority". Certainly don't offer to do so again.

If the pool collapses before he's even on site the additional repair costs are that much harder to possibly make his responsibility. See what I'm getting at? What if he get's delayed? An unforeseen (knock on wood I wouldn't want it to happen to anyone) tragedy (car accident, death in the family), and he's not able to start the job that day. Now the pool is empty for that prolonged period your trying to avoid.

If he has insurance to cover some sort of catastrophic failure not covered in the contract, it's probably reliant on him causing the damage. So having you drain the water out of the pool not on his authority might not avail yourself to that coverage. A good gasoline powered "trash pump" can empty your pool in under 2 hours. With other things to do on the job it's not a big deal if the water is in the pool when he arrives. You can unload the truck, work on your pump and filter systems, read the paper if you have to.

As far as how to close it other then the traditional methods because of the timing of the replacement I couldn't say. I wouldn't even begin to pretend I have close to the expertise about chemicals and water clarity of other posters. They are light years ahead of me in that department.

[elsie]

They advised me Friday to get it empty for liner replacement starting tomorrow. I had pool cover pumps running continuously since Friday night and it finally emptied overnight last night but of course the pumps couldn't get rid of the last two inches, so this morning spent two hours (got to work late) using a wet vac to pull out the last of it in the deep end (had to haul many buckets up and out as my wet vac's only about 5 gallons).

It IS interesting to see the old liner's sides -- they've bubbled out and wrinkles are everywhere. I've done what I was supposed to do -- they said it had to be "bone dry" when they come tomorrow. I hope my aching back is for good reason, as we now have a 50% chance of rain tomorrow. Umm...I can only hope it doesn't rain and this project gets completed over the next two days and then I figure 3-4 days to fill with two hoses going into it and maybe I can get it covered before Ike plays with our weather early next week. Not to mention the new worry of the walls collapsing. If that happens to hell with it, I'm going to have holes punched in it and have it filled in with dirt and plant an herb garden, complete with surrounding walkway (f/k/a The Pool Deck). :)

I tested my tap water last night and the pH is not crazy low at all, in fact the bleach may very well raise it to where it should be. The TA is 120 which is fine and good. So I'm confident I can add CYA and chlorine with the cover on and do fine -

[Vinyl_Guy]

I hope he knocked a few dollars off the price for having you empty it for him. It's not a huge deal if it's not done, but it does save some hassles in the morning when you show up on the job. Like the ones you performed.

If the walls where going to go any time soon they would have when the water was emptied. It actually helps to remove the water very slowly as you did. You should be fine. Although I usually put a string line on them prior to emptying just to see if the they "bowed" a little. Sometimes they will bow a little then go back into place once the pool is refilled with water.

Good Luck......

[elsie]

Apparently he does not empty pool for customers, but that's okay, a slower drain precluded massive property flooding!

The Liner IS IN! He didn't know how much patching of floor and lower walls would be necessary - as it turned out, he needed to trowel all entirely (a vermiculite mixture that looks like cement but is soft) for which he charged $450 extra. When my mouth fell open, he said he usually charges $1250 for it, and I respectfully said "two guys, two or three hours, $1250???" Even the $450 seemed a bit out of line to me, but he said go google it and you'll find $450 is a good deal...I can't believe the product cost that much? The floor and lower walls were just bare concrete with HUGE divits everywhere. Of course they were all fixed and he also gave the various lines more definition (like that ridge in the shallow end before it transitions down).

As soon as they finished the troweling, the winds kicked up and it looked like rain any moment. I said that if the winds got brutal as they often do tons of pine straw and other debris would be dumped onto their work and he said it would undo it, so he and his helper quickly put the new liner in. I swear, it took less than 10 minutes! Amazing! Then the rains came, what a close call that was. He duct-taped a big vacuum hose to the inside of the new liner, put my two garden hoses in and said when it reached a point where he put a sticker on the wall, to stop the water (only a foot or so in the shallow end) until he came back yesterday, and told me that if my circuit breaker were to cut off power to the vac, we'd have to drain and start over. It quickly took care of all the wrinkles and I must say, I was relieved when he came back yesterday morning and turned the thing off -- it was loud! He also fixed all the piping at the pump yesterday - which only took about 15 minutes.

I estimated that about midnight last night the water would be to the skimmer so I set my alarm, and I was right on target. With the excitement of a child I stood out at the pump and flipped the switch but alas, the pump motor was seized up. I returned to bed very disappointed. Fortunately, he's out there right now seeing if he can unseize it. As he said, it worked fine a couple of weeks ago, he probably just needs to take the band off and get it going...

I must say, I'm not in love with the liner -- and I'm so glad I didn't go even darker. It's much darker than the online Tara sample -- it's a true blue. I actually miss the aqua color. I wonder why none of the Tara samples had the aqua color? Frankly, I wouldn't mind having a pattern-less liner that was light blue. At night, even with my pool perimeter lights on as well as my floods, I can't see the water it's so dark. Also, all the seams are quite visible. Oh well, it's a new liner and I didn't pay for it!

He also scolded me for using the bleach method -- long story, but I defended it. I do now know though that I was keeping my bleach way too high. He insisted I should keep it between 1-3 ppm, but if I'm losing 3 ppm each full sun day, that means it would have zero chlorine at some point in the day. I'm thinking I should thus keep it at 5 ppm? I'll aim for a CYA of 50. This liner has a 20-year warranty (limited or pro-rated I believe) and I'd sure like it to last 15 years. He also said that the bleaching of a liner DOES compromise the integrity of it -- he said the vinyl has lots of pores just like our skin, and if you're bleaching the liner out then it's also irreversibly wearing it.

I know one thing, I'm not going to shock and cover this weekend. Algae won't grow with a cover on it, so I'll cover it with a low ppm and just check it occasionally over the next 8 months...

[Vinyl_Guy]

Well that's a relief things went smoothly (other then the bottom).

The numbers for the bottom sound about right.

I charged more then that and that was at least 5 years ago. He most likely didn't put the full thickness of Vermiculite down, that's one of the reasons he could give you a reduced price. Less material used. He probably didn't put the full thickness down because the 2 1/2- 3 inch depth recommended over a new pool dig "hole" is to give the Verm itself some structural soundness.

The reason for not laying down as much is, it would change the dimensions of the pool's depth too much. Having the liner already measured, ordered and delivered, it would be to risky if the cut of the liner wasn't small enough (they're all smaller then the actual hole, and stretch into place). Plus the bottom already has structural integrity with the existing bottom.

If you add up the material and labor that's not all there is to bidding a job. There's so much more. I used to ask my clients/customers, if they got a cheaper bid: "if they back into your fence at some point are they covered?" There's the liability insurance, gas for the trucks, maintenance costs, tools, power equipment, health insurance etc etc. I do the same that people did to me though." How much to take a look at my Japanese Maple tree?" :eek: So don't feel bad. I never minded people questioning the price of things. What's the alternative, they're going to accept any number you throw at them? That's never going to happen often, so it's better to be prepared to justify your price.

Yeah the vacs are loud. Pretty cool how they suck the liner into place though. I had a client who's neighbors made them shut the off via the police (I think they were feuding). I had to do it piecemeal in the daylight hours. Usually if you can shut the water off the same time the vacs fail you don't have to empty any water. But Murphy's law usually prevents that.

Just like anything it's the prep that takes the time. The actual fitting of the liner doesnt' take long. I used to always warn the customers with cameras, don't go to the store for snacks, when you get back and it could be filling.

Good job with the water. If it gets too high the water presses against what ever he has snaked behind the liner for the vacs too hard. They become "stuck" and you have to remove water to get them out safely.

Pumps do bind up. It's honest of him to tell you there's a few things they can try before replacing it. I've been to quite a few jobs where previous bids were for a new pump and I got it going again and only charged a service call. It's basically like the old sink garbage disposals/grinders. When they jam you put a broom handle in and try and free it. Same concept with the pump motor, or disassemble it and take a look for foreign objects. There's a couple different things to try for each model pump. Declaring it dead when it first jams or binds up, is never the norm for an honest pool tech.

With your new bottom, the next liner replacement should be: Pump, remove the old liner, sweep, hang the new one, and fill. So there's that to hang your hat on.

Nothing like a new colorful and brand spanking new liner (especially one you like). It's like a new coat of paint.

Good to hear things went relatively well....

[elsie]

But, this did occur to me: since he's the one who put the liner in 10 years ago, why was the bottom and lower walls so pitted and devoid of any soft fill material? It was bare concrete (rough, at that). There's nowhere for any fill to exit? Does this mean 10 years ago he put the new liner on that rough, bare concrete? I should've asked him this, but it just didn't occur to me at the time. Are you saying that the wet vermiculite he put down will then stay in place and not need replacing in 10-15 years? I'm glad you think the $450 was reasonable.

And you're right about all those "invisibles" it takes to run a business -- the office suite he rents, payroll, etc. etc. etc. As it turns out, he's maybe not as honest (or as good) as I thought, however. My beloved 83 year old neighbor, Jim (who's living with lung cancer and heart failure and still cooks for himself and keeps his beautiful acre mowed) came over last night to look at the pump. It is NOT leaking at all -- the leaking is coming from the 2ndary skimmer basket -- it does that when the pump is turned off even with fresh lube. It's never a concern because my pump runs 24/7 when the pool's open and it gets prime and doesn't leak then. It just leaks a little amount when pump is off, and not continuously either, just for a while.

Secondly, Jim knows why the motor's seized. The PVC that attaches to the pump was demolished, and the liner guy had to pry the threaded PVC out of the opening. No doubt a piece of that is stuck in the impeller. Certainly this guy should know this? It's very very evident to even me that the pump is not leaking. Since this is an insurance claim, and I've already paid him for a new pump/motor unit, I'm not going to tell him his failures here. I'll just let him replace it (hopefully today). I wrote him a note asking him to leave the old one behind, as Jim said I can use that for a "spare." Jim will tinker with it and fix whatever needs fixing, but likely there's just a piece of PVC stuck in it. And Jim said if he doesn't show up today he'll take it apart and remove the PVC from the impeller and we can fire her up tonight. It kills me to have this new pool and the water just sitting there unfiltered!

By the way, it didn't take long: the mediterranean blue pool now is nothing short of gorgeous! I'm going to hate to cover it this weekend (or maybe I'll wait until the next -- depends on how many storms are forecast). The only thing I can think of failing for a number of years is the multiport, I suppose. Are they expensive? Thanks for all your guidance Vinyl Guy -- I've really, really appreciated it so much!