Bleach & Vinyl Liner

[Pamsel]

We had to replace our liner this year and just finished filling the pool today. The past two years, since I found this forum, I've used the BBB method and loved it. It's so simple and cost effective! However, the pool guy who put in the new liner said that I should not be using bleach on my vinyl liner - that it is very hard on it and will fade it much faster. He also said that bleach is leached out by the sun much quicker than using the stabilized pucks. I usually maintain a CYA level of about 35-40 and I do have to add bleach to the pool every evening.

I don't want to fade or damage my new liner but really would like to stay with the BBB system, if possible. Do I need to go back to using the pucks and chlorinator, as he said, or am I safe to stay with the Wal-Mart bleach and CYA in my vinyl lined pool?

Thanks for any advice!

[chem geek]

The acid from a Trichlor puck floating feeder that parks itself in one place is far worse for vinyl than bleach. However, it is true that you do not want to just dump in bleach or chlorinating liquid in one place quickly because it is denser than water and can settle to the bottom in pools without floor drains (such as most above-ground pools).

The solution to this is simple. Add the bleach slowly over a return flow (at the deep end if you have one) with the pump running and after you add it brush the side and bottom of the pool in that area to mix up the water. Once the chlorine is mixed in the water it is identical to that which comes from Trichlor -- it lasts just as long and has the same effect on the vinyl. Though the chlorine from Trichlor is the same, Trichor is very acidic and also increases the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level.

He probably has experience seeing people use bleach or chlorinating liquid in vinyl pools where they quickly just toss it in and don't mix it.

Richard

[Pamsel]

Thank you Richard. We previously used a Hayward chlorinator with the pucks inside. Since I started doing the BBB method, I add bleach in the evening in front of the deep end return jet. I didn't brush immediately afterward, but if that helps protect my liner, I can do that. I didn't remember why the pucks were bad (Other than much more expensive) but remember now about them raising the CYA level.

Ok, I'm just going to stick with the BBB then. Thank you for your help.

[chem geek]

By the way, how old was your liner and why did it need to be replaced? Did you notice any difference in fading or deterioration rate between the earlier years and the last two using bleach?

[Pamsel]

One more thing - we filled the pool with house water, that runs through a whole-house filter because we have a high amount of iron in our water and it was frightfully expensive to have the water trucked in! The pool finished filling today and it has a very definite green hue. I know it's not algae because we just filled it from the tap. However, when I checked the chemicals just now, we have extremely high TA - 560! Can that be making the water green?

CL - 0
PH - 7.8
TA - 560
CYA - 0

Am just starting to work on the chemicals. Will be adding CYA this afternoon and then chlorine. I did put a gallon of sequestering agent in as it filled due to the high iron content and the fact that it was already looking green at about 1/4 full. I don't really know what to do about that TA reading. Doing some aerating seems like a drop in the bucket with a reading that high.

[Pamsel]

Richard, we bought the house Dec. 2001 and the previous owners told us the pool was four years old then. However, the company that built the pool said they thought it was 10 years old, so we don't know for sure. The liner was original, as far as we know. It was cracking, bubbling, pulling away from the sides and very faded. Yes, I did notice that it faded more last year than before but we had a terrible mustard algae problem and used horrendous amounts of bleach for awhile. That amount did seem to fade it more.

[moriskod]

Best way to add bleach is to put your 5 way or whatever valve you have on your filter to recirculate (bypasses filter) and pour the bleach into the skimmer. Be sure there is nothing in the skimmer basket and turn your chlorinator to "off" while you o this. Let it run for 10 minutes or so and switch back to "Filter". This will distribute the bleach evenly out your jets and mix it fast. Chlorine is chlorine as far as the liner is concerned so just keep the concentrated away from it and you'll be fine. I do all my chlorinating via the skimmer except for an occasional puck in the feeder every once in a while. I switched from bleach to CalHypo about 3 years ago (easier to handle) and I have not adjusted my pH in that time. I occasionally use some bleach but the CalHypo is easier to handle and I just run it down the skimmer with the 5-way on filter. Very slight to no clouding using the CalHypo from Leslies. It is about $150 per 100 pounds and my last bucket lasted me 2 seasons and that was with giving my brothers some for their "kiddie" pools and few times. My pool is a 20,000 GAL vinyl. Also for bleach I used a 15 gallon carbouy and bought it from a local water treatment distributor... I got 12-15 percent bleach, very good stuff. I call it "pool magic".. :)

[famdog]

Is there a problem adding liquid bleach to the skimmer slowly with the pump and filter on 'filter' ??

13.5k AG vinyl liner, 1.5 HP hayward pump, sand filter

[chem geek]

It's not a problem for your sand filter. There is the possibility of some wear with a cartridge filter which is why I don't pour it in the skimmer in my own pool, but I'm being conservative. Unlike pouring acid in a skimmer, which is an absolute no-no, I don't think there's ever been a report of problems pouring chlorine through the skimmer -- again, I'm just being conservative by pouring it over a return flow at the deep end.

Richard

[elsie]

If running high chlorine consistently causes liners to fade, then why wouldn't everyone, at least here in the south where the water doesn't freeze, who shocks and covers their pool in the fall open in the Spring to a faded liner? I close with 15 ppm CL and open 8 months later to a ppm of 8, which means the liner was subjected to a high chlorine level of 15 ppm over an extended period of time (before it eventually dropped down to 8 ppm at some point before the Spring). This makes you wonder about high CL fading liners in the first instance, doesn't it? If not during those long winter months, then why in the summer when the pool's open, and when high chlorine doesn't consistently stay high unless treating for algae, and even then it's a limited time -- certainly not month after month? UNLESS, fading results from a myraid of other reasons such as the interaction of high CL and sun and/or other chemistry values.

When I switched to the BBB method some years ago (2003, I believe, a year after I bought my property and inherited my pool), my liner began fading quickly, not just in the deep end where I pour the bleach in front of the jet, but the shallow end as well, which is far from that deep end jet so it's not localized fading. And, although it sounds like it, I am not blaming the BBB method -- the fading just coincided with my 2nd year of ownership. The sides are not faded, but I have almost no color left anywhere on the bottom (and the seams are very visible with a thin line of black). Yes, I do tend to run my CL a little on the high side because I have continual debris from the trees entering the water (I check pH religously and ordinarily add a cup each week as the pH tends to rise with this method for me), but still, this brings us back to the question above: not using my pool as an example, "if consistently high chlorine fades liners, why not when it's covered and the CL level stays consistently high for a number of months?" Surely we would hear reports of this from pool owners all over if they were opening to faded liners, and we don't hear such reports. The fading of my liner, hence, remains a mystery.

Fortunately, it's never bothered me. With the color intact on the sides it still shimmers aquamarine. My liner is a good 10 years old I figure, and still not showing signs requiring replacement. I'm crossing my fingers that the faded liner does not diminish integrity of the liner, and that I can squeeze another season out of it in 2009.

[aylad]

Speaking as one of the pool owners in the South who does also consistently keep higher chlorine levels, I'd just like to throw in that I'm on my 7th season with my liner, pool open year-round, BBB since the beginning, and the only fading I see in my pool is above the waterline. If you keep the chlorine consistent with the CYA requirements, I think the sun is more likely the culprit.

Janet

[elsie]

Yet with higher CL values and presumably a lot of sun (as I recall you keep your CYA higher in order to hang onto CL because your pool gets direct sun for a long time each day), the floor of your liner has *not* faded. On the other hand, my pool gets a meager five hours of sun each day. So the fading question must point to something else other than CL + sun logic tells me.

One of these days my curiosity is going to drive me mad!

[chem geek]

The higher CYA level slows down the chlorine loss from sunlight in two ways, but one of those ways is in shielding lower depths from the UV rays of the sun (the CYA directly absorbs UV rays). This is a non-linear effect such that higher CYA levels significantly reduce the amount of UV that reaches lower depths. So it is quite possible that Janet's higher CYA level protects her vinyl pool bottom from fading while your lower level doesn't, even with less time in the sun.

I also seem to recall that Janet's pool is deep with a maximum depth of 8 feet. Even at the same CYA level, that would also make a difference.

This would imply that a higher CYA level would be a way to have vinyl liners fade more slowly, at least at lower depths, but that requires diligence since you have to maintain a higher FC level and it's harder to fight an algae bloom at higher CYA levels.

This is all nice theory, but we don't have enough cases to know if this is truly what is going on.

Richard

[ChuckD]

And just to throw another variable into the mix, I think it could be safely stated that all vinyl liners are not the same. Or at least the way they're colored.

I'm another who's shocked many times over the past three years I've owned my pool. The liner's 8 years old (I have the receipt) and the colors are still quite vibrant. Like Richard, I add 12% at the return in the deep end and always allow it to circulate at least an hour after. I'm thinking there are dyes used to color the vinyl that may be more susceptible to chlorine than others, not unlike clothing in the wash.

C.

[elsie]

Interesting variable to be sure -- maybe that's the culprit behind my fading. It's the only thing that makes sense, in fact. I wonder if the dye--or the life of the dye--has anything whatsoever to do with mil thickness (I have no idea what mine is). Speaking of which, any idea if, when one goes to replace the liner, it pays to get the thickest mil on the market?