Ascorbic treatment

[essikr]

I tried the ascorbic treatment and everything looked great . I brought the alkalinity up with soda and the PH up with borax. Looked good for a week and now the stain is back almost as bad as when I started. The water read is
PH 6,9 ,Alk 110,Cal hd 200,copper 5, CYA 120, chl .5. There can't be much of my heat exchanger left ! It looks like the sequa-sol either wasn't enough or didn't work well.Is there a better sequestor to use??With that much copper in the water is there any way to get it out? Will adding sequestor be a rountine ?

Thanks Marie for your help the pool looked really great after the initial treatment. Sure would like to get it like that again and keep it that way.

[szampino]

Regarding your Numbers: PH 6,9 ,Alk 110,Cal hd 200,copper 5, CYA 120, chl .5

I'm not a forum expert but:

Your PH is too low and may be harmful to your pool. Raise it to at least 7.0 to be on the safer' side. 7.0 is also a good number to target for shocking with metals. After you get your metals under control you could maintain it at the 7.2 range.

Your CYA is going to require you to 'Shock' at about FC 25ppm. (this may be a problem with metals and Sequestering, I'm not sure at what point the Sequestering Agents breakdown)

Stabilizer . . . . . . Min. FC . . . . Max FC . . . 'Shock' FC
=> 0 ppm . . . . . . . 1 ppm . . . . . 3 ppm . . . . 10 ppm
=> 10 - 20 ppm . . . . 2 ppm . . . . . 5 ppm . . . . 12 ppm
=> 30 - 50 ppm . . . . 3 ppm . . . . . 6 ppm . . . . 15 ppm
=> 60 - 90 ppm . . . . 5 ppm . . . . . 10 ppm . . .. 20 ppm
=> 100 - 200 ppm . . . 8 ppm . . . . . 15 ppm . . .. 25 ppm

Your cl number doesn't give me enough information. This forum looks at chlorine as FC + CC = TC. FC='Good Chlorine' and CC='Bad Chlorine', TC is just how much Chlorine is at the party.

**I also took a brief look at your other Posts to see how you got to this point but coudn't find any background. So I'm not sure what your water looked like before, and what you did prior to the AA treatment.

[mbar]

szampino is right. You need to keep your chlorine level at a minimum of 8ppms with a cya of 120. You may want to drain some of your water and refill to get your cya at a better level. You can drain down 1/3, add more water and repeat until you get your cya at about 50. Then I would suggest you get your ph to 7.0 - 7.2. Add more sequestering agent. Sequasol is good, Jack's Magic is good, so is Proteams Metal Magic, also Metal Free, Water warehouse metal out are all good, I have used them all. When you get the ph to 7.0, add the sequestering agent - add more than the bottle says - it should lighten the stain without having to do the ascorbic acid treatment again. You probably didin't have enough sequestering agent in the water to keep the metals from falling out. Sometimes it takes a lot of the agent to accomplish this task. If you add the sequestering agent and after a couple of days to a week, the stains are still there, then add a little more ascorbic acid. Just go around the edge of the pool and then let it circulate for a while. It should take the stain right off. You can then start to raise the chlorine back to level you need for your cya. Just make sure there is enough sequestering agent in there before you use the ascorbic acid. I also suggest that you raise the chlorine with bleach, so that you can do it slowly till you get to the chlorine level you need. Feel free to ask any other questions you have.

[essikr]

Thanks to both of you for the prompt reply. I left alot of info out ,sorry.
The pool is 15 years old 16X32 approx.23,000 gal.,still on the original vinyl liner. I started on Bauqasil when it was new and switched to chlorine 7 years later (glad) . Added a heater 3 years ago. I have had very few water problems using the baking soda and borax. I use bleach when I open the pool and a chlorinator with 1" tabs during the season.
When I opened the pool this spring the liner,steps ,etc were stained a brown rust color bad.Brushing did nothing to remove it.After reading your posts and information in the forum (great help). I ground some vit C tablets and tried it, the stain wiped right off. With help from the forum I determined the unbalanced water was eating the heat exchange and putting copper in the pool.I did the AA treatment several weeks ago and wow the pool looked great almost lke new(well almost) .I added the sequestor 2 qts of sequa-sol . Used bleach to bring the level up slow and the soda and borax for the PH and Alk.Everything looked good till this week and I noticed the stain coming back .We did have a family outing last week,lots of kids in the pool.The chlorine level was low so I added bleach to bring it up , I put a gallon in and the reading I took was 5-10 with my kit. It went down 2 days later. I was working on the PH and Alk when the stain started to re-appear. Never liked my hth test kit so I ordered a Taylor K-2006 kit. Using the new kit my numbers are FC 1,TC 1.5,CYA 120,TA 110,CH 210, PH 7.
I think you answered most of my questions and will be following your suggested route. It's not practical for me drain and add I'm on well water.
One thing,how does the CYA raise ? What is the range that is acceptable? Thanks again for all your help ,the forum is a great place to learn. I hope I can contribute with experiences I have had with my pool.

[mbar]

CYA, which is cyanuric acid is also called "stabilizer". It is also in trichlor pucks. That's why trichlor is called "stabilized chlorine". You can have it build up in your water over using the pucks, because the only way to get cya out of the water is to drain and refill. Usually over the winter you lose it due to the dilution of the water with rain and snow. It can also get eaten up by a really bad algae bloom. What is recommended on this forum is to keep your cya between 30 - 50. Chlorine becomes less effective with high cya. Here is a chart we use, called the "best guess chart":

Stabilizer . . . . . . Min. FC . . . . Max FC . . . 'Shock' FC
=> 0 ppm . . . . . . . 1 ppm . . . . . 3 ppm . . . . 10 ppm
=> 10 - 20 ppm . . . . 2 ppm . . . . . 5 ppm . . . . 12 ppm
=> 30 - 50 ppm . . . . 3 ppm . . . . . 6 ppm . . . . 15 ppm
=> 60 - 90 ppm . . . . 5 ppm . . . . . 10 ppm . . .. 20 ppm
=> 100 - 200 ppm . . . 8 ppm . . . . . 15 ppm . . .. 25 ppm

As you can see with a cya of 120, your minimum chlorine level should be at 8ppms. This is the level you need to really have your water sanitized. When you shock you will need to go to 25.

Hope this helps, ask any questions you have.

[waterbear]

A couple of observations:
first copper usually does not react well to ascorbic acid, especially the BROWN copper stains (the blue ones might but the bronw, grey and black usually won't).
second, you said you are on well water. Have you tested it for iron? I suspect that you have iron staining from your well!
I also suspect that the reason your copper levels are so high are linked to your use of trichlor.
first, is your clorinator before of after your heater? It should be after. If it is before it explains the high copper levels.
If it is after it means you have not been keeping tabs on your TA and pH because the only reason so much copper would dissolve is because your water was too acidic. This is fairly common with trichlor use.

Finally, even forgetting that your CYA is way too high YOU NEED TO DRAIN THAT POOL AND REFILL BECAUSE YOU HAVE 5 PPM COPPER IN THE WATER. THAT IS WAY TOO HIGH TO BE SWIMMING IN AND IT IS NOT HEALTHY. COPPER IS TOXIC, THAT IS WHY IT IS USED AS AN AGACIDE AND YOU HAVE ABOUT 16 TIMES THE ALGAESTATIC LEVEL IN YOUR WATER!!!
ANYTHING ABOUT 1 PPM IS TOO HIGH!

sorry for shouting but you really need to pay attention to that.
bite the bullet, drain and refill and treat your well water for the iron that I suspect actually caused your staining.

[essikr]

Thanks for the reply I will answer as best as I can.

I don't use the raw well water to make any adds,have an iron remover on the water system if I need to add. We are in Ohio and it seems we get enough rain to keep the pool level up. My winter cover is the safety type that lets water in.Usually have to put water out several times before pool open.
The chlorinator feeds after the heater.Sounds like I need to use only bleach.

The ascorbic acid removed the stain pretty quick.
I don't have a way to test for iron or copper .
Had it tested at two different stores ,one said the copper was 5, the other didn't list any. They may not have tested for it.
I beleived the stain was from iron when first detected and didn't put much trust in the test that said it was copper.
As an added note ,we live within a 1/2 mile of an operating steel mill.Though they have a dust collector system I'm sure we receive some pollution.We see the brown stain on some of our vinyl siding. Idea!! I never tried to take the stain off with Ascorbic acid. I will try it .
Looks like I need a test kit for metals? Need some advice on that.
Finally I would like to avoid a complete drain at this time. We had planned to replace our 18 year old liner in the fall.

[mbar]

eeek, I missed the 5 copper :eek: Waterbear is right, drain and refill. You may have other metals in your fill water, but they can be controlled with sequestering agent. You have to check the trichlor - a lot of it has copper in it now - it is used as an algaecide. Also with the trichlor it makes the water very acidic which can eat the copper element in a pool heater. Brown stains are ususally iron, which is very common in well water.

[mbar]

I was replying while you were typing:D It does sound like you may be getting the metals through the air. It does sound like iron. I think you will have to use a lot of sequestering agent - putting some in every week to maintain what is lost through backwashing and dilution. Is there a municipal water testing place you can take your water to? It can give you a more detailed list of what metals are in the water. I wouldn't trust a pool store that said you had a copper level of 5 and didn't say anything to you. You can live with a little staining, but a copper level of 5 would not be advised. If you are going to get one more year out of your liner, then just use the sequestering agent, and keep up with the stain with a little ascorbic acid every now and then. Just be sure to check out the copper. You also must keep an eye on the ph - ascorbic acid will lower the ph too.

[essikr]

Happy Fathers to all you Dads and to Moms that take Dads place!

Well I put some vit C tablets in a sock and tried it on the house vinyl siding, it removed 90% of the stain.I then wiped ( just a light rub) the pool step it removed the stain 100%anf the steo was pure white. Brushing and rubbing with a rag did nothing to the stain. I will follow all of your suggestions and keep a better eye on the water chemistry.
One question when I used my new K -2006 the FC=.8 CC=.2.
When I checked it with my old HTH delux test kit the TC= 8-10. Using my old kit I kept the level between at 5-8. This looks like it was misleading me to believe my level was good.

Still think it is iron and not copper!!!

[waterbear]

I have no doubts that your stains are caused by iron. Ascorbic acid would not remove brown copper stains at all!
Still get a recomfirmation on the copper levels in your water. For this you can use a copper test strip or even an aquarium copper test as long as it will register in the range of 0 to 1 ppm. If your copper is 1 ppm or above bit the bullet and drain.

[essikr]

Hello again !
Hope I'm not being a pest! Several things discovered today may be of interest to other pool owners.
The eyebolts that the safety rope attaches to were chrome plated .The chrome eventually has worn off leaving the base metal . The base metal is brass . I can see some corrosion on them (I removed them today). just wondering if this is the source of the metal in the water. Brass is a mixture of copper and zink. I realize the water balance is still the cause to erode the chrome off the eyes and then attack the brass. :confused: mwb
On another note , the step that I cleaned this morning with Vit C is starting to stain again this afternoon.
At this time it's a nice sunny day and my daughter is coming over. The ribs are on the grill and I'm on my third margarita. This father is going in the pool!
:D

[szampino]

Essikr,

Hope you had a great Father's day. I would suggest you consider Waterbear's post and confirm/deny the copper level in your water before you take any additional actions including more swimming.

re: the staining. Given your CYA level you may have a very hard time controlling your Metals even with the Sequestering Agent.

I would reccomend that you post another complete set of numbers including your current CYA level.

[essikr]

It took awhile but I got a copper test kit these are the numbers on the water today.

CC=.2 FC =4 PH=7.3 Alk= 110 Cal hd=150 CYA = 110 copper .8

The stain is back as bad as it was when I started.I appreciate the suggection offered. Since our summer abruptly ended,no one is swimming in the pool. I found another source for ascorbic acid at Essential wholesale and ordered 5 pounds. Is there any way to determine how much sequestor I need to use when I do another ascorbic treatment?

[waterbear]

CYA = 110 copper .8


First thing I would do is drain and refill 1/2 to 2/3 of the water. This will get both your CYA and copper to more manageble levels!
Have you tested for iron?

[szampino]

Essikr,

I know how frustrating this whole process is. I battled the same 'Symptoms' 2 years ago and actually took last year off. This year the kids wouldn't let me so I had to 'Trust' the advice given on this site. My pool has been clean and clear all season so far. I would suggest you hit the search button and look for posts/threads that I have started - user-szampino.

Based on your recent post numbers, I would say that you may still be relying on someone else to test your water. I've got a 'Powder based' drop kit and have no idea how you can come up with a .2 CC, unless you put a .4 solution drop. I'm still new and learning so I'm sorry if I sound a bit synical and maybe you've got a different kit then me. I thought .5 was the lowest reading.

Not being an expert, but speaking as a survivor, I think you are going to have a very hard time keeping your 'Metals' under control when you have to maintain such a high Chlorine level due to your CYA level. Since you are not swimming now anyway, Reduce the CYA level by listening to Waterbear and do a partial refill, then DO NOT USE Stabalized Chlorine because you'll end up in the same place you are now, high CYA!

Because your FC is at 4 and your Chlorine level needs to be between 8-15, with a CYA of 110
=> 100 - 200 ppm . . . 8 ppm . . . . . 15 ppm . . .. 25 ppm, you risk an Algea bloom which will require 'Shocking' and then the staining mess begins all over again.

My reccomendation is as follows:

1. Make sure you've got a 'Great' test kit.
2. Do the partial refill and get your CYA as low as possible, ie, 1/2 refill should get you around CYA-55, I would like to see it lower but I think Mbar suggested 50's in an earlier post.
3. Get your Alk between 80 - 110, get your PH to about 7.0 (between the 6.8 and 7.2 marks.
4. Let your Chlorine drop to 1-3.
5. Add Sequestering agent (not in the sun)- the stuff I used, HTH Metal Control and Pool Magnet required about 3oz per 1000 gal. So at 23,000 gal you'll need about 69 oz of sequestering. Let it circulate in the water at least four - eight hours (ignore the stains)
6. Now focus your attention to the Water Chemistry and ignore the stains. Get your Chlorine level up to the Shock level for your CYA level. **Suggestion, NO - Stablized Chlorine and Do not add it through the Filter, only somewhere at the return.
7. Get the FC level to hold at shock overnight or if your like me make it 2 nights. *Don't worry about the staining we are going to tackle it next.
8. Now that we know the water is 'Sanitized', let tackle the Staining.
9. Let your FC drop to the correct 'Sanitize' level for your CYA.
10. Vaccum
11. Backwash (if you've got that kind of system), if not, Clean your Filter.
12. Let your FC drop between 1-3. Shut the filter, add a maintenace to full dose (depending on how bad the staining is) of Sequestering agent(not in the sun). 23oz to 69oz. Let the pool sit for about 1-2 hours.
13. Turn the Filter back on and let it circulate long enough to turn the water over.
14. Vaccum again if needed, then Backwash or Clean Filter.
15. 'Slowly, bring your FC (no Stablized Chlorine and as suggested, NOT through the filter only at the return) to the correct 'Sanitize' level.
16. Let your filter run continuously until the water begins to clear. Hopefully it will be clear by this point.

**If you follow my suggestions, I reccomend you start a new thread and post your results at each step so 'Tweaks' can be made along the way.

We are here with you so don't think you are fighting this fight alone!


It took awhile but I got a copper test kit these are the numbers on the water today.

CC=.2 FC =4 PH=7.3 Alk= 110 Cal hd=150 CYA = 110 copper .8

The stain is back as bad as it was when I started.I appreciate the suggection offered. Since our summer abruptly ended,no one is swimming in the pool. I found another source for ascorbic acid at Essential wholesale and ordered 5 pounds. Is there any way to determine how much sequestor I need to use when I do another ascorbic treatment?

[mbar]

great post szampino:D It is excellent advice essikr. It is more important to make sure the pool is sanitized. Then you can deal with the stains, this way you won't have to shock right after the ascorbic acid treatment, so that the sequestering agent has time to sequester all of the metal that has been brought to solution by the ascorbic acid. I know it is frustrating, but once you get the idea you will be able to know your won pool, and how it reacts to chemicals you add.

[essikr]

Thanks for the advice szpiano , my test kit is a Taylor K-2006. I followed the directions they show . I have been using a 1"tablets in the chlorinator feeding after the filter and heater.I didn't know that they were stabalized and would raise the CYA. Are you suggesting using only liquid chlorine?

In the steps suggested I'm to add 69 oz of sequestor follow the directions to step 12 then add 69 more Oz of sequestor. I see no menthon of using the ascorbic acid to put the metal that is staining the pool back in solution? When I first did the ascorbic treatment the stains all disappeared. I assumed the metal was in solution and the sequestor would keep it there.Since it didn't , thought I didn't use enough sequestor.

I guess I was lucky for 18 years never having any problems like this!:confused:

[Watermom]

Thanks for the advice szpiano , my test kit is a Taylor K-2006. I followed the directions they show . I have been using a 1"tablets in the chlorinator feeding after the filter and heater.I didn't know that they were stabalized and would raise the CYA. Are you suggesting using only liquid chlorine?

They are definitely stabilized and are continuing to add cya to your pool. I didn't take the time this morning to go back and reread through this thread about your specifics except to find that you said your cya level was 120. Maybe somebody said it above as well and I just didn't see it, but NO MORE PUCKS for your pool. Szpiano is right about that. This is what happens to a lot of pools --- the owners continue to use pucks day after day, month after month all season long and unbeknowst to them, their cya level continues to rise. But, they don't use higher and higher chlorine levels to compensate for the higher cya level. Then, they can't figure out why they get algae because they have always had chlorine in their pool. Stick with bleach and you won't have that problem or rising cya.

[shadowman]

I can testify as to what Watermom is saying. I fought algae all last year due to high CYA and I quit using pucks. I too fought the drain and refill solution even though we are on city water. I had to vacuum to waste so much that I eventually had the same result as if I had drained it all at once. This year I think I can get away with using pucks while we are away on vacation but I will go back to bleach when we return.

Good Luck :)