View Full Version : Hope you're there Marie ??
The other experts have already read about my plight.....but i'm at the breaking point in trying to figure out why the pool after 12 days is still cloudy and green...IS IT POSSIBLE that I have a metals issue with the water ??? Would metals turn the pool cloudy and green ( basically what it looked like when I opened)
....I'm holding a 30ppm FC number the past 36 hours and my PH and ALK are definely in line...Reason I ask about the metals is the pool store guy claimed that has been the issue of late here in the Poconos....
Any input would be appreciated..
If your chlorine is holding, then you probably do have a metals problem. If you some vitamin C tablets, you can crush them up and put them in a sock and rub on the sides or steps of your pool. If you see any change in color, it is a metals problem. Often metals make the water appear greenish brown. the reason is that the blue of the liner, or even water along with the yellow of the stains makes green:D . I would suggest trying the above test (vitamin C). If the stains are organic, they wouldn't come off with vitamin C, they would come off with chlorine. If the water is just green from metals, then a metal out sequestering agent would work. What happens is that when the chlorine is high, along with ph over 7.2 - 7.4, any metals that are suspended in the water fall out - usually staining the pool, or sometimes just the water. The way to get rid of the staining is to get the metals back into solution, or if it is in solution, but coloring the water, to get it sequestered. This is done by metal out (any that say will sequester metals), or if the stains on the surface of the pool are stubborn, you can do an ascorbic acid treatment. Ascorbic acid is just vitamin C. that is why the test with vitamin C tablets;) . Let me know how the test turns out. I am leaving to go on vacation tomorrow, and don't know if I have access to the internet, but I will check tomorrow for your post, and hopefully will be able to follow through. There is an ascorbic acid sticky on this forum, and all of the directions are on it. If you are going to do the metals out sequestering agent first (which I would suggest) You get your ph down to 7.0 - 7.2 add the metal out, and see if the stains or color of the water change. Add a little more than what is suggested on the bottle. Wait a couple of hours and if there is no change, you may need the ascorbic acid treatment.
Marie, Thanks so much....the Vitamin C (with rosehips) DID in fact clean the side walls of the pool...to make sure, I flipped the sock over and (with all my might) tried to unleash the stains by sscrubbing the walls....it did not make a dent in the staining...
That said, do you suggest any particular brand of metal out ?? or do I need the ascorbic acid at this point ??
I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your post.....although the water is holding a very high FC number, nothing else has been helping...(including 30 gallons of bleach in the past 7 days).....
Hoping you get this post before vacation....and HAVE a great vacation !!!(Away from PA :>......
Steve
You can use the metal out first, any kind, as long as it is a "sequestering" one. Don't get the real cheap ones - but one that costs at least $15.00. Try this first because you need it in there even if you do the ascorbic acid treatment. I think you will probably have to do the treatment, but you can use the metal out while you wait for the ascorbic acid to come in. Here is a copy of the treatment, there are links of where to buy the ascorbic acid on the web.
Here is the ascorbic treatment:
Take your chlorine down to 0, if there is chlorine in the water it won't hurt, it will just eat up the ascorbic acid, so you will need more to get rid of the stains. You can add poyquat 60 per directions on the bottle to avoid getting algae while the chlorine is low.
You will need about a half to one pound of ascorbic acid per 10,000 gal. I like to go lighter on it and see if all the stains lift off before adding more.
Put the filter on circulate.
Use a cup and go around the perimeter of the pool and drop it down the sides as you go.
Let the ascorbic acid circulate for 1/2 hour. You will be amazed how the stain just disappears before your eyes.
If the stain is not all gone, leave the filter in circulate and add more ascorbic acid close to where you still see stain. Leave it in circulate until all of the stain is gone. (add more ascorbic acid if it circulates for 1/2 hour and there is still stain)
When the stain is gone, add enough sequestering agent for the volume of your pool - more is better than not enough.
Put the filter back on filter and leave it on 24/7.
The ascorbic acid will bring your ph down, and sometimes the alkalinity. After 24 hours you can start to rebalance the water. Bring up your ph and alkalinity, - use arm and hammer washing soda first, it will raise both ph and alk. Make sure you test in between, because you don't want your ph to go any higher than 7.2. If your alkalinity is in range, and you still need to raise your ph, use Borax to take it up to no higher than 7.2. You can start to bring up your chlorine. You want to do this slowly. It will take a lot of chlorine - I prefer to use bleach only at this time, and try to take it up to your minimum chlorine for your cya according to the "best guess chart" . As you slowly raise the chlorine, watch for stains starting to form. If you see stains, make sure the ph is no higher than 7.2, and add more sequestering agent. You should see the stain lift in a couple of hours. Do not shock! Do not shock for at least 2 weeks! Make sure you keep your ph low for (7.2) for a week or two - it won't be hard because the ascorbic acid and sequestering agnet will help it stay low. Once your chlorine starts to hold, it means that you have used up the ascorbic acid in the water and it will be easy to rebalance the pool back to your regular parameters.
Here are two important notes: High ph along with high chlorine will precipitate any metals that are not sequestered out of the water and on to the surface of the pool again. If this happens take the ph back down to 7, or 7.2 and add more sequestering agent. This should lift the stain off. You can add polyquat 60 to the water before starting the stain treatment to avoid getting algae while the chlorine is low.
Here are two links to buy ascorbic acid:
http://www.msm-msm.com/store/agora.cgi
http://www.chemistrystore.com/Ascorbic_Acid.htm
Let me know if you have any other questions
Marie, You're the BEST !! I ordered the Ascorbic and will head out this morning for the metal out agent..Should i see ANY form of improvement with the metal out product ??
Again, have a great vacation....(AWAY from Pocono Raceway) !!!
Sometimes you will see an improvement with the metal out - especially on new stains. The ascorbic acid treatment is really magical though, the stains just disappear in front of your eyes.:D Just remember to add some polyquat algaecide too, this way while the chlorine is low from the ascorbic acid, you won't get any algae (which when shocking the pool can lead back to stains:mad: ) Start with raising the chlorine up slowly with bleach, and if you see stains start to form, add more sequestering agent. Keep the chlorine on the low side of the "best guess chart". Keep the ph low for the first couple of weeks - no higher than 7.2. Good luck, and hopefully I'll be able to get online during the vacation to answer any questions you have.:)
I'm just hoping this will not be a continual problem going forward.....I've never (in the past 8 seasons) had an issue with metals.....
N'Joy the Va-K
szampino
06-06-2008, 02:49 PM
Posting reply here.
Regarding the Chlorine level for Metal control, I suggest you keep it low and your PH low. The Metal Control typically suggests a 7.0 PH, I have also read that keeping the Chlorine low is helpful.
Marie: Hoping you had a great vacation...just a quick post to let you know the water this morning is crystal clear....The metal out product was the only thing needed (I'll hold on to the ascorbic in case it's needed later in the season).
Metal out/ Poly60/ low FC levels etc etc and the water cleared inside of two days...
A very BIG Thank You to you and Lisa for mentioning metal in the first place....I never would have assumed that was the issue ...
With that said, are my days of hard shocking over ?? I'd hate to see these metals drop out again...
Thanks again
Watermom
06-10-2008, 07:41 AM
A very BIG Thank You to you and Lisa for mentioning metal in the first place....I never would have assumed that was the issue
I had a feeling it might be a metals issue. I'm gonna let Marie answer your question about shocking. She is our metals expert. Glad it is looking better.
Thanks WaterMom...as irony would have it, the water is absolutely crystal....but it smells of chlorine in a big way...CC is at 1.5, and FC is not holding at all...now the fun egins !!!
szampino
06-10-2008, 05:07 PM
STMA,
I'm feeling real confident with what I've accomplished with my 'Metal infected' pool so I'm going to chime in, I've been 'Clean' for about 1 week now. I'm not sure if you are still looking for suggestions on your next steps but this is what I would reccomend.
1. Post your chemistry numbers.
2. Make sure you've got enough Metal Sequesterant on hand.
If you are going to try and tackle the FC not holding by getting to shock, I would suggest the following:
1. get your PH to 7.0
2. Let your FC drop to about 1.0
3. Add a maintenance dose of the Sequesterant (I say maintenance dose because you've already added it within a few days).
4. Let it circulate for a few hours.
5. Gradually bring your FC up to reccomended Shock Level, while maintaining a 7.0 PH.
6. Keep it there till it holds overnight, **I would even keep it one more day if possible.
***This is where my Metals fell out again and I was really bummed, but I stayed with the plan.
7. (After you FC holds) - Go to step 13 if you didn't stain.
8. Let your FC drop to the 1.0., keep PH at 7.0
***At this point I noticed that many of my stains began to dissappear automatically, must have been the Sequesterant in the water.
9. Vaccum if you have bottom staining.
10. Clean your filter or backwash.
11. Add another maintenance dose of the Sequesterant
12. Let is circulate till the staining is gone. (hopefully it is by this point)
13. Bring your FC gradually up to sanitizer level.
14. Keep you PH at 7.2-7.3 tops
Hope this helps.
KirstenHW
06-10-2008, 05:44 PM
How does the ascorbic acid treatment work if you have a DE filter with no receirculate option? I have rust stains around mt light and my two skimmers that I'd like to remove with vit c but I can't recirculate my water.
szampino, great answer! You are right, you will get the hang of how to shock when needed. It is just understanding how your pool works, and using the metal out and ph to get rid of the stains. The most important is that when you raise your chlorine level, you want the ph low. High ph along with high chlorine levels cause metals to fall out. Once the chlorine goes back to normal, and the ph is low, new stains will lighten up if there is enough sequestering agent in the water, if the stains don't lighten up add more sequestering agent.
If you don't have a recirculate on your filter, just keep the filter running. However, ascorbic acid usually does not remove rust stains. Try a magic eraser if you have a vinyl liner, or if you have a fiberglass pool, a very fine sandpaper. If you have a plaster pool a pumice stone. Let us know how you do, and ask any other questions you may have
Great posts' as always !! FC is not holding at all...received my CYA reagent yesterday and saw that I had NO CYA in the water (that's assuming the sequesterant wasn't eating it)..nonetheless, I added enough stabilizer to achieve a 40PPM rate...I'll re-check tomorrow...
It's been sunny and HOT here in the Poconos so I'm finding it difficult to get any reading of CL..Being my impatient self, i added a gallon of 6% into 7600 gallons....an hour later, FC was 6 BUT I had a 1 on the CC side :< 3 hours later, FC was 0 and CC was.5......PH was 7.2...(and I did start to see the dreaded very light green tint to the water....which now has disappeared)..
Szambino, Is it THAT critical that the PH hold AT 7.0 ??
Marie, again, what can I say.....Thanks so much..
When adding chlorine you need to keep the ph low. You will need to keep adding the chlorine slowly at first, keeping it at about 3ppms for your low cya. It is ok to add some more sequestering agent if the stains keep returning. Don't add anymore cya, it can take up to a week to show up in your water.
Wow...this is a delicate dance between FC and green !!!...As of this morning, Water is finally holding FC overnite, but the metals fell out again...The ONLY thing I did different was to shut down the filter last nite.....Does pool water with metal issues need to be pumped 24/7 ?? I turned the pump back on and i'll see if the stains dissipate
Numbers:
FC: 3
CC: 0
PH: 7.2
Alk: 90
CYA:30
temp: 81
Skillset
06-14-2008, 01:03 PM
I am having similar issues with metals. My FG pool was stained upon opening and I used the Ascorbic acid treatment (followed by Metal Magic) which removed every sigle stain. But, when Cl was raised accidentally, stains came back w/a vengeance and 60% of the pool was covered! Used Metal Magic again, which unbelievably cleared the entire pool. I was impressed. But, stains started forming again just 3 days later, despite a lower cl and lower ph. I'm scratching my head.
I'm in the process now of figuring out what works. Marie and Waterbear suggested some Calcium in the pool, which I did. Marie was also using Metal Out from Waterwarehouse, which I bought.
I've been using Extra Strength Metal Out for a few days now and it has not removed the stains - it lightened some stains but did not remove them. So, for the stains that I have, I think the Metal Magic works better. I'm out of the stuff right now and have ordered more this week. Pool is stained right now - I'd say 20%.
I also had some stain problems last year, but not as bad as this. I probaly used about 3-4 quarts of Metal Magic all season. Again, the Metal Magic is clearing the pool - but I don't want to be burning through a quart of this stuff every week! My CYA was 30 and I am in process of bringing it up to 50. The CYA level is is the only difference really from how I kept the pool last year.
I'd love to be able to have a stain-free pool and use a weekly maintenance dose, but I really find I have to use a lot of product to get rid of the stains.
Perhaps running at a higher CYA and a higher Cl, it will help. My ph is pretty consistent at 7.2. I know higher Cl has been stated to bring stains out, but perhaps with CYA, maybe less so. I only say this from my experience last year.
I know how frustrating it is:mad: A couple of seasons ago, I kept the stain dance going. Last year I hardly had any stains. This year I had a lot of stains at the beginning, but now I haven't had any bad ones since putting in some ascorbic acid. I do find that using pucks or calhypo seem to add to stains. I have my cya at around 60 now. I am still not sure why sometimes the sequestering agent works, and sometimes the stains keep coming back no matter how much is in there. Every time I see some stain start, I take my ph back down, add some sequestering agent and they go away. I try to keep my chlorine at the level of the best guess chart. It is a balancing act, and sometimes the stains don't come off with the sequestering agent. I then just add some ascorbic acid around the perimeter of the pool and they disappear without taking the water out of balance (just lowers the ph a bit). I do keep my filter running 24/7, I think it may help with staining, but not much. I wish I could be of more help, but it is just not an exact science. I will keep trying to find out what works, and if everyone with stains posts what works for them we can learn from each other.:)
As the day wore on (cloudy but warm), the CL dissipated as expected ALONG WITH the green tint !!!...once the green disappeared, I check the CL which read 1.5-2...
just dumped a qt of 6% which should raise it to just above 4ppm...i'll see what happens...
szampino
06-15-2008, 10:54 AM
How is it going?
When you get a chance post an update.
Please include full water make up,fc,cc,tc,alk,ph,cal,cya. Please also include your Pool size, liner, and filter type.
Yes, I would be interested to see if the stain came back with the additional chlorine. It is how we all learn:) It is always good to post a current set of numbers
Perhaps because it's Father's Day, things are looking up for me...Got POUNDED with rain last nite (sure you saw the same Marie), and thought i'd wake to a nitemare...Fortunately the CL held it's own over-nite...The same 5ppm yesterday was the same 5ppm this AM...Sun is on the pool now, so I'll see how much I lose through the course of the day...Water never "tinted" green after the Clorine addition, so maybe I'll be OK.....Rain DID raise the PH to 7.8 though...
as for the specs:
18 ft round/ sand/ vinyl/ 7600 gallons
FC: 5
CC: 0
TC: 5
PH: 7.8 (acid added minutes ago)
ALK: 90-95
CYA: 30-35
CAL; 130
taking your cue, It's just ONE THING at a time for me !!....have not had the need to use additional metal out as the water appears to "clean-up" on its own after clorine additions...... However. my days of 'hard" shocking may be at an end...anytime more than 2 qt. of bleach is added, the water tints green....(In the past, I never thought twice about dumping 2 gallons at a time to "clear" things up).
So far, so good.....Thanks for asking....
szampino
06-15-2008, 08:38 PM
Looks like your on the road to recovery.
Watch the PH bounce and do your best to keep it in check. 7.2 - 7.3. Your Alk level appears to be pretty good.
Something I learned from some other posts to help manage the PH is to lower your PH to the 7.0 with the MA and then Airate the water with a waterfountain or something to bring it back up.
**I used to have my water feature on all the time and could never figure out why my PH level kept rising....
Happy swimming.
Sounds really great:) I think you have it down pat now:D You can aerate the water by turning the return eye up so that the water bubbles on the surface of the water. Only do this if your ph goes below 7, cause your alkalinity is ok.
We only got about 5 minutes of heavy rain yesterday, although it looked like we were going have a really big storm:eek: