The RETURN of the Orange/Brown Stain!

[PopcornGirl]

Intro: <Dramatic horror movie music plays ominously>
:eek:

Sorry to be so dramatic, but I absolutely REFUSE to go through all this again.
My pool is looking GORGEOUS and I have been testing my water DAILY (like a good girl).
My Stats:
Water Temp: 76
pH: 7.4
FC: 3
TC: 3
TA: 120
CYA: 40'ish
12,000 gal. IG, Gunite ~4.5 years old; Cartridge filter
Using only BLEACH now to chlorinate :D

I HAD to finally add some water to my pool -- have not added any since start-up and it has been so hot and dry here (well, until YESTERDAY). Anyway, I added about an inch of fresh water to my pool and guess what?
Yesterday I start noticing 3 or 4 small areas where the stain is trying to come back. This has GOT to be the water source! My pool walls/floor were *pristine* before I added the fresh water.
So, I have another bottle of Metal Out on hand and I'm wondering if it's ok to do the maintenance dose of 16 oz./10,000 gal every time I need to adde fresh water (actually, the bottle says to add this every week during the swimming season, but that seemed a little excessive to me).
What do you think?
Pool chem is great; water is sparkling clear. I do NOT want to go through the horrors of that Easter-Egg-thread again!
But I don't want to mess up my pool, either, now that I've finally gotten everything under control.
Please advise!

[JohnT]

The first thing I would do is take a sample of pool water and a sample of your fill water to a pool store for testing. Tell them what you are having problems with. Let the hose run for a few minutes to get rid of anything that comes from the plumbing out.

[PopcornGirl]

Hi John :)

No offense, but I'm not about to go back to my pool store!
LOL!
They are what got me into this mess in the first place!
Read my 2 previous threads ("Orange/Brown Stain" and "My Pool Looks Like An Easter Egg").
First of all, their readings were off, but more importantly, they didn't have a clue what they were doing and had me dumping ALL KINDS of chemicals in my pool (Stain Out, Metal Out, Black Algaetrine, Filter-Friend, Baquacil Shock, etc.)! Or maybe they DID know -- they made about 200 dollars off of me in the past month!
So, I won't be talking to them. Besides, I have gone completely against their instructions by switching to a bleach pool and I don't feel like arguing with them until I have a little more knowledge/experience under my belt. ;)

No, I'm pretty sure I've got a good hand on my chemistry now; I just want to make sure that I won't mess anything up by adding the Metal Out when I add fresh water. Obviously, I am getting some iron through my pipes because this has happened twice now. Also, another member on this board who lives in my area informed me that Baton Rouge sometimes supplements their municipal water supply with local wells (My house/pipes are new -- only 4.5 years old). We have been so dry for the past couple of years, I'll bet that's what is going on.
Thanks anyway though!

[mbar]

Summer, don't worry - put the whole bottle of metal out in and keep your filter running 24/7. When you put fill water in, put it in through the filter. Lower your ph down to 7.0 - 7.2 - You can do this by getting a sock and filling it with ph down, tie the sock to your skimmer pole, and rub the stain with the sock - it should take the stain off, as well as lowering your ph just a little bit. Don't worry about putting in too much metal out - it won't hurt anything, then any metals that get into the water will be suspended in solution. Sometimes just adding the metal out and lowering your ph will take a new stain off, but rubbing the stain with the sock of ph down will do the trick, or You can aslo use ascorbic acid in the sock if you have any left without messing with the chlorine.. Let me know how you do, I was just as scared as you when I saw the stain return after doing the whole treatment, but you will see that once it is gone, and you keep your water balanced, you should be fine.

[JohnT]

Hi John :)

No offense, but I'm not about to go back to my pool store!
LOL!
They are what got me into this mess in the first place!


I didn't say do what they said.:) I'd find a store that can give reasonable readings on the metal in your fill water so you know where you stand.

[PopcornGirl]

I didn't say do what they said.
LOL!
hee hee...
Point taken! ;)
But, even so, when my pool store supposedly tested my water for metals before, they told me there was no iron, but a lot of copper. Of course, this test was done AFTER they had me put Black Algaetrine in the pool and they didn't seem to make the connection -- even AFTER I reminded them!
<sigh>
If I had time, I'd go to a pool store I trust in a neighboring town, but alas, my children have my schedule completely BOOKED for the next 3 days!
Is there a do-it-yourself metal test kit for pools??

Marie, THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! :)
That's exactly what I needed to hear!
One question though: When you say,
When you put fill water in, put it in through the filter.
What do you mean? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying... Do you mean put it in through the skimmer? Like put the hose in my skimmer?
I'm sorry if I'm being dense; I was up with the baby half the night.
Thanks again!

[mbar]

No Summer, It was me - I meant your vacuum pole! Or anything long enough that will reach the stain. Put your hose in the skimmer of your pool when filling, so the water will go through the pump first before it gets returned to the pool . As for all the mistakes in my last post, I have no excuse, my babies are all grown up - maybe oldtimers disease!

[PopcornGirl]

:D Marie,

Don't worry; I knew you meant my vacuum pole & that does make sense about the water through the skimmer first... Thanks so much for your help!
Summer

[PopcornGirl]

Hey, Just wanted to let you know -- the Metal Out worked perfectly!
I did what you said -- poured in the whole bottle last night -- and this morning the stain was GONE!
My pool looks great & I am SO relieved.
Thanks again!

[waterbear]

LOL!
hee hee...
Point taken! ;)
But, even so, when my pool store supposedly tested my water for metals before, they told me there was no iron, but a lot of copper. Of course, this test was done AFTER they had me put Black Algaetrine in the pool and they didn't seem to make the connection -- even AFTER I reminded them!
<sigh>
If I had time, I'd go to a pool store I trust in a neighboring town, but alas, my children have my schedule completely BOOKED for the next 3 days!
Is there a do-it-yourself metal test kit for pools??
Both Taylor and Lamotte make kits that check for both copper and iron. Taylor's (K-1264) is pricy at about $80. Don't know the price on the Lamotte (3611/EC-67). From my own experiences with both company's test kits their chemistries are good but LaMotte seems to cost more per test than Taylor. Hanna Instuments http://www.hannainst.com/products/prodline/testkits.cfm
also has an iron test kit for around $16 available from http://sciencekit.com/category.asp_Q_c_E_435180
Don't know too much about it. Ben sells a copper test kit. Maybe if there is enough demand he might consider a kit to test for iron.
Marie, THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! :)
That's exactly what I needed to hear!
One question though: When you say,
What do you mean? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying... Do you mean put it in through the skimmer? Like put the hose in my skimmer?
I'm sorry if I'm being dense; I was up with the baby half the night.
Thanks again!
As an alternative you might check out the test kits used for aquariums. I know Seachem has a test kit for iron for about $10. I use an aquarium testkit to check my pool for phospates. Works fine and gives me exactly the same results as the pool store. The chemisty involved is basically the same whether you are testing pool water or pond water;)

[vgg659]

Hello again. First of all, it is perfectly acceptable to use Metal Out for maintenance, such as when adding tap water, per the labeled directions.

But, I am surprised that you could have added enough iron to the pool by simply adding 1" of tap water to cause staining. Usually, iron accumulates from tap water over a span of time, because there's not that much iron in Baton Rouge's Water.

Could the iron be coming from some other source?

[rwkelleyjr]

I've got a similar problem and thinking now it's from the fill water. The only area in the pool where I have stains is where I put the hose into the pool...

I've done the Vitamin C test...It worked! Now what? I've read some threads from Marie, but getting conflicting information from my pool store.

Now they've sold me a Stain Test Kit to specifically identify what the stain is. I haven't used it yet since I already know that it's metal stain.

So here are some questions...

Pool Manufacturer's User Manual suggests using jack's Magic Pink or Metal Magic as a preventative, BUT how do I get rid of these stains to begin with?

Pool store suggested rubbing Jack's Magic Pink on the stains in a sock. the stained area is too big to rub with a sock IMHO. Is there something I can put into the water that will remove the stains or will I be forced to rub the stains directly for best results???

Salt Water Pool. Ph 7.4; TA 120 Cya: 22ppm

Thanks

[mbar]

Return the stain Kit. You can use ascorbic acid. Here are two links to web sites:

http://www.chemistrystore.com/Ascorbic_Acid.htm

http://www.msm-msm.com/store/agora.cgi?cart_id=%%cart_id%%&product=Vitamins&user4=Ascorbic%20Acid

You don't need the stain kit, if the vitamin c worked, because vitamin c is ascorbic acid. The pink stuff is a sequestering agent. If you want to get rid of the stain, the sequestering agent sometimes works if you lower the ph to 7 - 7.2 and add more than enough of what the bottle tells you to add. After a day or so if the stain doesn't lighten, then you would have to use the ascorbic acid, and I can tell you how to do that if you decide that is what you want to do. Keep us informed.

[rwkelleyjr]

Thanks for your response, Marie. Not to sound Cheap, but it appears the Ascorbic Acid route would be much more economical choice too.

Can I go that route first? If so, how is it to be used?

Many thanks!

[mbar]

Ha, ha, that's why I went the ascorbic acid route myself - not cheap, just frugal. If you want to go the sequestering agent way first, you lower your ph down to 7., 7.2 and add the sequestering agent - the low ph helps the sequestering agent lift the stain sometimes if it isn't too embedded. I would try this first, because you have to put the sequestering agent in anyway with the ascorbic acid. Oops I just saw that you want to go the ascorbic acid way - How big is your pool? I used 1 1/2 lbs for my 16 x 32 pool about 16,000 gal. You have to lower your cl down to 0, if you want you can put in some polyquat, put the ascorbic acid in put your filter on circulate, let it go for about 1/2 hour, you will be amazed how fast it works. Put in enough sequestering agent, put the filter back to filter and let it filter for 24 hours. It will bring down your ph, so you will have to add borax after 24 hours. It will probably take a lot. Keep the filter running 24/7. After 48 hours start to add chlorine slowly. It will take a lot, because the ascorbic acid will eat up the chlorine. Keep checking and get it back to regular levels in your pool. Do not shock, or take your chlorine really high for at least 2 weeks (hence the algacide). If you have any questions feel free to ask!

[rwkelleyjr]

I guess I should have given you all the particulars of my pool first in case this changes things...

Salt Water Generator/Chlorinator (AutoPilot)
DE Filter
inground 13'x26' pool ~ 9,000 gallons including inground spa
Gunite/Marcite pool
Screened in pool area

Thanks again.

[mbar]

I am sorry to say that I don't have any experience with salt water pools.Youcan check with "Jack's Magic" and see if there is anything different you have to do with salt water pools. I would pm sean from autopilot on this forum, he may be able to tell you if you can use the ascorbic acid - I would imagine that you could if you turn off the system.l I will try to check some things and get back to you.

[waterbear]

Treat the stain with ascorbic acid then use a sequestering agent to keep them from coming back...Jacks 'purple stuff' is made especially for salt water pools but Proteams Metal Magic or any of the others out there will work as well, IMHO. Woudn't hurt to turn the SWG off while you treat (you need to get your Cl levels down anyway for it to work)

[mbar]

Thanks for the reply Waterbear! I have been looking to see about the ascorbic acid and the salt water generators.

rwkellyjr,
You will probably need very little ascorbic acid - the less the better, because the extra will just have to be eaten up by the chlorine - that's why it's hard to get your chlorine to be stable at first. Just go around the sides of the pool with a small scoop (like one for coffee) and pour it heavier where you see the stains. Let the water circulate till you see all of the stains are gone. If they aren't gone in an hour, put a little more acid in. Make sure you put the sequestering agent in, then when all the stains are gone put your filter on filter again. You can start to bring your ph up the next day, but don't take it any higher than 7.2 or 7.3 for a week. After 48 hours you can start to raise your chlorine level back to normal slowly. If you have a sand or DE filter you can put a trichlor puck in the skimmer basket, this way if the chlorine is going to stain, it will stain on the filter. Don't shock the pool for at least 2 weeks.

[edarling]

Leslie's Pool as a product called Stain Remover - it is 2 pounds for $34. It is "concentrated ascorbic acid" Is this actually different than the product you referenced on the chemical store website? Of course, aside from price :) IE - is there such a thing as "concentrated" AA?

I almost bought it for the quickness/convienience, but remembered I bought some stain remover for 75% off at the end of last season. I always have spring stains from filling/top off with well water and shocking, so I stock up at the end of the season for the next spring once the algae is finally done and I don't need to shock. My pool looks great after the process, but next time, I wonder if I should just by this stuff.

[waterbear]

Thanks for the reply Waterbear! I have been looking to see about the ascorbic acid and the salt water generators.


Marie, I have never seen anything to the contrary about using stain removers with SWGs. If anything the low pH might help in removing some scale from the cell (not really sure but it seems like it should since calcium is a metal). I would think that the SWG should be turned off until the process is done beause chlorine will depleate the ascorbic acid. Probably best to use bleach to bring the chlorine levels back up and then turn the SWG back on. Poolsean would be the one to ask about this.

[mbar]

Ascorbic acid is ascorbic acid! Here is the web site that sells 5 lbs for $45. You can use thier stain remover, but you are paying more for the convenience. I'm not sure of the shipping cost.

http://www.msm-msm.com/store/agora.cgi?cart_id=%%cart_id%%&product=Vitamins&user4=Ascorbic%20Acid

[TTnC4me]

Is the Ascorbic Acid approach ok to use with cartridge filters? If not, then what?

[waterbear]

It is fine to use with ANY kind of filter. I have a cartridge filter and have used it.