Opening AG 24ft -Everything is wrong

[brianbo]

Hi,
First timer and posted in wrong forum but this is the right one but here 's my story, I live in MA. For 3 years everything great until last July. I think my well hit a new acquifer as I got a more iron in pool. In late Aug 2007 , pool company vac it out and had clean water. But, I added water and shock and same brown junk on bottom of pool ( iron or algae guess was iron no one actually committed ). Drought in Sept and closed it with brown stuff on bottom.
Cover collapsed in winter and opened yesterday. I added 5 inches of water 2 nites ago. Also yesterday, I bought and installed Hayward DE Grid 2420 and am using my 3 year old 2 speed 1/2 hp and 2 hp to run it. I replaced a sand filter. The GRID filter says to use a 3/4 hp though. I read WASTE documentation on DE filter: and will buy DE cannister tomorrow to put in the right amount. Unfortunately. it is too late to get the pool tech to show me as I started it already.
I am running pump at 2 hp but low pressure causes me to backwash and rinse every 2 hours and add DE. I will turn it off later tonite as there will be no return water. The pool guy said run the filter with METAL OUT for a couple of days to get the metals out (iron and manganese in well water). Once metals out, then potassium chloride instead of shock as he said they better luck with that than shock causing less brownr. He did say add Metal Out when no chlorine but I am impatient as TC = 1 and FC = 0,
3 years ago, my water was tested and iron was 10 microns and I have a whole house filter. DE is new to me as of yesterday.
My questions:
1) When I backwash/rinse the DE, the water does not look that dirty but each time I do the pressure and return are good? I am probably putting in wrong amount of DE after reading WASTE's write-up.
2) Question about WASTE's write-up- I have the GRID filter, your and Haywards directions did not say release the air valve but in the Bump part you said to release it. I know the filters are different but do you recommend releasing it for GRID filter as well?
3) The water is disgusting. It was black yeaterday but now murky and a lot less scumy. I know it will take time. I asked the pool guy if I should vacuum all the junk on bottom ( green slime but now I am afraid as I just read about green poop, ammonia, CYA ) .
Pool guy said to wait until I get water tested to vacuum but why wait?
4) Should I get a pump to match the recommended filter or will the 2 speed work fine with Haywrd DE GRID 24?
5) Absolutely loaded question: What do normal people do with 24 ft AG with iron, manganese in well water and need to add water to pool?

Sorry for the length of this but I was so disgusted last year. Everyone in area with well water said to get DE which I did and I know it will take time but.

[CarlD]

I wish I could help but my knowledge of DE filters is limited. But if your filter is rated for 3/4 hp (not a real rating--it's max GPM that matters--how many gallons per minute the filter can take--and what's the max the pump puts out) and you are over-straining it, bad things can happen.

The brown stuff I get is either dead algae or pollen and usually ends in June. But you need a metal test and can either buy one from Leslies on-line or from TaylorTechnologies.com

For metals, again, I'm not the best. Mbar (Marie) is one of our most knowledgable members, and she usually can help diagnose metal problems and recommend a solution.

Meantime you need to post your standard test numbers:
FC, CC, pH, T/A, Calcium and CYA. If you have them, copper and iron and magnesium numbers as well. You should vacuum to waste as well.

Poconos or one of the pool dealers here can advise you on the pump and DE filter situation.

Don't give up! It's definitely solvable, and without a pool service to muck things up.

[daisy11]

Regarding #5....I have an 24' AG with iron in my well water. In the future, you will need to add more Metal Out before you add well water to your pool. The key is to keep enough Metal Out in your pool to keep the metals tied up so they won't fall out of solution. Another tip is to add the water directly into your skimmer so that the new water goes through the filter before it goes into your pool. That way, most or (hopefully) all of the metal that falls out of solution will do so into the filter medium instead of onto the pool surfaces. That's a quick answer, and there is more to it....pH and cl levels also play a part....but metal issues can be managed without staining if you learn how. Read everything you can in the metals section of the forum. I'm not an expert, just another pool owner with a similar problem.

Mbar is definitely the metals guru here. She should be able to help you with your current metal problems, and avoiding future problems, BUT she will need you to post your test results. Do as CarlD suggested, get a complete set of numbers and post them, and the great folks here will help you solve the issues you have. It is absolutely solvable and you can do it yourself faster and cheaper than the pool service!

[brianbo]

I went to pool store and got different these results as the owner was on service call.
I vacced to waste and a lot green and junk came out. I then brushed the walls which I should have done first. My pole broke and I jumped in to get the middle. It looks like the bottom is cleaner but you still cannot see it as it is green and brown.
Pool place #'s are
FC .3
TC 1.1
CC .8
PH 7.9
hardness 60
Alkalinuty with stabilzer correction 50
Cyanuric Acid 35 (is this CA or CYA)
They did not run the Copper, iron and Total Dissolved Solids
She said the copper was broken and there was no sense to iron as Cholrine was present (??) or something I cannot remember.

The filter clogged in 2 hours . I am going to need to add water if I vac again.
I still think I need to vac again.
Any suggestions would be appreciated?

Daisy11, when do you add the metal out before you add well water? ! cycle, 1 hour, 5-12 hours, etc.

[CarlD]

I would add lots and lots of chlorine--bleach or liquid chlorine. YOu need to get your FC level to 15. I would add 5 gallons of regular bleach or 4 gallons of Ultra.

If you use 12% Liquid Chlorine, use 2 gallons. Then, 8 to 12 hours later, add it again--but TEST it first.

[aylad]

Cyanuric acid is CYA....Calcium is CA or CH. And I agree with Carl--add your Metal Out, and then shock your pool, maintaining that shock level until it clears up. Keep your pump running, backwashing as you need to, and brush it at least once daily. With some patience, you can get it clear.

Janet

[brianbo]

I Vac again yesterday but was in pool and forgot to put value back to filter from waste so I lost some water. The same stupid thing I did last year.
Pool is still greenish, cloudy and has brown sediment on bottom but cannot vac as water is low.
The test strip I used said chlorine was low so I added 2 different times at added 2 gals of 12%. I went to the pool store and they tested and my chlorine now is how. I might need new test strips as these strips #'s are not close to the pool store #'s.
Pool store #'s.
FC - 4.3
TC - 4.3
CC - 0
ph - 7.7
hardness - 80 ( CA?? and I have AG with vinyl liner so I do not care. Right?)
Alkaline w/Stablizer - 68 (I had 6 lbs baking soda and I will add 3 more lbs)
CYA - 40
Copper .62
Iron - .4

I am going to add 4 inches of well water tonite and I still have the brown stuff on the bottom of the pool that needs to be vac. The pool is cloudy.
I put in metal out today. I know I will have more brown stuff in the morning. The pool does look a lot better and the DE is clogging a lot less.
Thanks for any suggestions. Should I post on metals forum?

[daisy11]

I would allow the water to circulate at least a couple of hours after adding the Metal Out before adding water. Did you add more water last night? Do you have more brown stuff on the bottom this morning? Hopefully you ran the hose into your skimmer to let the DE trap any metal that fell out of solution. I would suggest that you vac the sediment into your filter at this point, not vac to waste.

You should get at least a basic drop-based test kit. The strips are very inaccurate.

It sounds like you are on the right track. I know the DE filter clogs up quickly, but that is normal when you are trying to fight an algae bloom. Keep the cl level up until the cl level doesn't drop much overnight. The closer you keep the cl to 15, the faster your pool will clear up. If you let the cl level yo-yo up and down, it will take longer to eradicate the algae.

I wouldn't bother trying to adjust the other numbers until you get rid of the algae. The high cl levels affect some of the other tests, so just wait until you can allow the cl to drop to normal levels.

[mbar]

daisy11 is right, you need to have metal out in the water, and you need to get your chlorine up there, and keep it there until it holds overnight. It can take a while to clean up a swamp (I should know, mine was nasty this year). You can also kill the algae, then work on the metals if that is what you want, but it is just as easy to do both at the same time - the metals sequestering agent can also cause cloudy water, so don't worry if the water stays cloudy for a while, but the green should be gone. You do have to brush and vacuum everyday. You also have to backwash as needed. Try to test the water at least 3x a day bringing the chlorine back up to 15 each time - the more persistent, the faster the blue water;) . If you brush the sides, and the stains do not come off once the chlorine has been high for a few days, then the stains are metals. When dealing with metals, you should not have a ph over 7.2, I see yours is high at 7.7. The high ph along with high chlorine will cause the metals to fall out of solution and stain the pool. The new stains can be taken care of with the metal out. Make sure it is good metal out and not cheap stuff. You sometimes need more than what the directions say on the bottle. Drop the ph down to 7.2 and add the metal out, let it run for a couple of days and see if all the stains lift (they should). You never really get rid of the metals, they just go into suspension so they don't cause the problems. When you use well water, you usually need to keep sequestering agent (metal out) in your water at all times. You add a little every week, or whenever you add water. Feel free to ask any other questions you may have.:) Keep us posted.

[Mom2Czars]

Two years running we had to get a pool started from scratch, owing to a liner problem. In adding water this year, we went from normal looking water (with tons of leaves on the bottom) to a green-tinted pool just after adding well water.

Well, last year we had a similar sort of issue and while I was tending to blame it on metal in the water, I kept hitting it with bleach for a few days, and I changed the DE twice in the same time frame and the whole thing cleared right up. Were I you, I'd just keep that pool at shock level for a good long time, and keep on changing out the DE every few days or so. Once you get the pool clean, you won't have to change the DE very often at all, but during the start up phase, it can get junky pretty easily. When mine gets junky, it definitely affects the return flow negatively.

Good luck!

[brianbo]

Thanks for the info. I really appreciate everyone's help.
The pool is clear with only a little bit of residue to pick up. A lot of brushing and vaccing to filter. My child went in on Tuesday. The DE filter worked great as last year with the sand filter the iron residue just blew back into the pool. I am glad to hear that the DE filter also clogs quickly with a lot of junk in the pool. Also, I backwashed to filter numerous times but not much lately as the pool is clear.
I bought new test strips but will buy the drop test as recommended.

I added 2 gals of 12% 2 days ago and yesterday went to the pool store.
FC - .1
TC - 1.1
CC - 1.0
ph - 7.0
CA - 60
AL (w/stablizer correction) - 70
CYA - 35
They said add 3 gals of 12% and 2 trichlor pucks which I did and do not add stabilizer as the CYA was good. I also added 5 lbs of baking soda.

From this website, I know that I should not have bought calcium/hardness but I did anyways. Was that a total waste of $$$ with me having an AG and vinyl liner? I resisted 4 times of testing at the pool place but I will try anything.
If Chlorine does not hold when I test this afternoon, should I add Stabilizer or just keep adding 12%?
Is CYA and Stabilizer the same thing?

[CarlD]

Do NOT, repeat NOT use the Tri-chlor tabs! That was terrible advice. Your pH is 7.0--on the very edge of too low and Tri-chlor will push it down, making it worse. Your CYA is 35 which PERFECT and the Tri-Chlor will push that up, making it worse as well!

The 3 gallons of 12%? How big is your pool? I have 20000 gallons and two of those would raise my FC by 12ppm! Still, it's not TERRIBLE advice, unlike the Tri-Chlor, excessive baking soda, and useless calcium.

Your T/A is a little low, but I think 5 # of baking soda is too much. Start with 1 # and then measure. If you are between 80 and 100, you are DONE and don't add more.

Calcium is a TOTAL waste of money! You don't need calcium in your vinyl pool! If you MUST add calcium, buy Cal-Hypo and use that--at least you'll be getting useful chlorine for your money and the calcium will be essentially free. If you need calcium or don't care about calcium, Cal-Hypo is a better source of chlorine than Tri-Chlor or Di-Chlor as it doesn't affect CYA at all, and has less effect on pH.

[brianbo]

OK. I will take out the trichlor pucks as I thought I read that it contained stabilizer. I will never bother with Calcium again.
Mine is 13,500 gal.
From Pool store:
My results Recommended
T/A - 70 100-150 (**printout said add 5lbs so I did**)
PH - 7.1 7.2 -7.8
CYA - 35 30 - 150
FC - .1 1 -3
TC - 1.1 1 -3
CC - 1.0 1 -3

The pool store said CYA was good but to add trichlor puck. I do not understand by recommended from above the CYA = 30 which is at low end but it is perfect. Is the recommended high end to sell more chemicals?

How much baking soda will raise TA by 10ppm?
How much Borax will raise PH by 10ppm?
If CYA is within range, do not use Trichlor?

[aylad]

The trichlor pucks do contain stabilizer, which is the same as CYA, but you don't need any more CYA in your pool. For the amount of CYA you have now, you need to keep your chlorine level at a minimum of 3, and preferably closer to 5 ppm. The pucks also lower pH, and yours is already too low, so that's why Carl is telling you not to use the pucks. So yes, if CYA is at the range you need, do NOT use trichlor because it will push it higher, which will require water to be drained/refilled, or require higher baseline chlorine levels to keep the pool clean.

Your CC is greater than 0.5, and accounts for almost all of your total chlorine, so you also need to shock the pool to 15 ppm to burn off all the CC, allowing the CC to return to zero, and your FC to be equal to the total chlorine.

How much Borax it takes to raise pH by 10 pm depends on your alk level, so there is no real rule of thumb like there is for chlorine. In your size pool, I would not add more than about a cup of Borax at a time slowly through the skimmer, allow to circulate a couple of hours, then retest--it's much easier to sneak up on your target level than to overshoot it.

The same goes for TA--I don't know of a rule of thumb to calculate how much baking soda it takes to raise it, except I know what works in my pool. However, TA is a pain to have to lower, so again I would use only 1 cup increments and retesting in between doses until you get it to where you want it. Since you've already added 5 pounds, I'd say you're not going to have to add any more, at least for this season.

Janet

[brianbo]

Thanks again Carl, Janet and everyone.
I read so much in this forum last week it made my head spin as the pool was a mess. I knew I saw a post about ammonia, PH and I found it as it was in this forum under FAQ. It said on startup to get PH up to 7.5 and add chlorine and do not worry about TA but I could not find it. I figured out today that I need to be logged in for Search capability. I am not to swift sometimes.
I found and saved Ben's best guess chart so I have that.
My first 2 years were easy and last year with the iron was not so easy. I think I had other issues last year but that is in the past.

When adding chemicals seems like going easy on everything except chlorine.
Pool Store recommended level on chlorine is 1 to 3.
But Bens recommended FC is 3-6 with CYA = 35. To me that is not close.
What is recommended level on TA and PH as pool store is TA 100-150 and PH is 7.2 - 7.8? My PH is 7.1 but do I want it at 7.5
Is everything rule of thumb or just learn by doing based on pool size, area, climate, etc?

Thanks again,
Brian

[Watermom]

We suggest alk at 80-120, ph anywhere between 7.2-7.8 is OK, but we prefer 7.4-7.6. And, yes, a lot of it is just rule of thumb and based on all the things you mentioned above. You just have to learn what works best for your pool.

[CarlD]

According to our in-house chemists, they are now saying T/A really should be in the 80 to 100 range, though I have never had problems with a vinyl pool with it as high as 180ppm.

Try reading some of the stickied threads that Watermom, aylad, Poconos and I authored, especially on pool maintenance and BBB. They should make it a lot clearer.

Remember: in a vinyl pool you are concerned with pH and sufficient chlorine to keep it sanitary. Everything else serves those two thing--T/A helps keep pH constant. CYA(Stabilizer) helps keep chlorine from breaking down too fast. Calcium is only for hard-sided pools.

And most of the other chemicals and tests (phosphates and "Total Dissolved Solids") are designed to keep the pool stores and pool chem companies solvent.

[daisy11]

Not to add to your confusion, but with metals in your water, I would try to keep your pH toward the lower end of the "good" range....I keep the pH between 7.2 and 7.4 in my pool because of the iron in my fill water.

And yes, they will tell you to add all sorts of chemicals to your pool at the pool store because they are in the business of selling chemicals. I just tell them that I have it at home, thank you very much. :D