Trying to Swim More and do less work

[szampino]

I'm trying to start the season out right as opposed to asking the forum after I've made a mess of things.

Background: Historically, I've had a metals problem in my pool where the water will brown when I shock or raise the chlorine.

I've got a kit - PS234
Above Ground (Blow-up Ring , Vinyl) 18x4ft round - about 8K gallons
Cartridge Filter

Filled from Well (Bypassed all treatment equipment) (almost filled, haven't started the filter yet)

readings:
FC=0
CC=0
TC=0
PH= Below 6.8
AlK=30
CYA=0

How do I startup this pool? What Order?
Do I shock/Bleach/Etc?
Sequestering Agent?

[waste]

6.8 is as low as the PS234 measures, add a little borax to get that number up to a safe 7.0, low pH is needed for the sequestering chem, so don't over dose it - but the pool is being harmed by the acidic water. Then add the sequestering chem, as per label instructions and then, once the metal is 'out of the way' you can add the chlorine and get the other #s in order:)

[szampino]

My POP is being challenged and the stubburn is being shaken from my mule.

I have been trying to raise my PH as follows:

Keep in mind my numbers:

Initial readings: for 8000 gal pool
FC=0
CC=0
TC=0
PH= Below 6.8
AlK=30
CYA=0

Current Numbers:

FC=0
CC=0
TC=0
PH= 6.8 (-) can't see much gain because it is the bottom of the scale
AlK=50-60 (Depending on how red the color change needs to be)
CYA=0

I have been adding Borax by the lb(pound) every hour with the exception of over night. I've added about 5.5 lbs total so far. I've also added about 25oz of Soda Ash (Left over).

I could use some encouragement because I've been at this for 2 days now and my real problems (metal) haven't even been addressed yet. I'm still working on the PH.

[aylad]

Hang in there, you'll see some progress soon. Depending on how low your pH was originally, it can take a surprising amount of Borax to get the pH above 7.0. I would wait on raising the alk for now, since the pH moves more rapidly when the alk is lower...get the pH in line, THEN raise your alk.

Don't give up now...just remember it'll be well worth the effort in the long run!!

Janet

[szampino]

Thanks I needed that last little bit of encouragement. It is so hard to be patient, I wanted to dump 4lbs of borax in at one time just to see some movement. I listened and am glad to report I got my PH right between the 6.8 and 7.2 reading and was able to add my Sequestering agent. (Pool Magnet). I decided put my 'Return' fountain to raise the PH a little more. I checked it tonight and it appears to be in line.

My Alk is around 90 - 100 and I have not added any Bleach or Stabalizer.

Since this was a fresh fill, I believe my next step would be to get the water to a 'FC-Shock' level to kill any bacteria or other stuff. Is this the correct next step? (Since there is no CYA in the water, I believe my FC should be at 10ppm) Can someone tell me if I got it right? How long do I need to keep at shock level?


Thanks.

[szampino]

I just put in 1.42 Gal of Clorox Bleach (6%). And checked all chemistry after the hour.

FC 17
cc .5
tc 17.5
ph 7.2 (turned fountain off)
Alk 110 - 120
Cal 120
CYA 0

**I didn't expect the FC to be that high with 1.42 gal of clorox.

How long to I need to maintain the FC @ 10(+-)

[Watermom]

Don't worry about the cl being so high right now. With no cya, it won't stay at that level for long.

[aylad]

How long to I need to maintain the FC @ 10(+-)

Keep it up there until the pool goes to blue but cloudy--and then keep your filter running 24/7 until it clears completely. Go ahead and get your CYA in there, since it takes several days to dissolve.

Janet

[szampino]

So close but yet so so far.

At around 1pm or so, I tested my FC and it was at about 7.5 so I added about 1/2 gal of Bleech (6%) and then rechecked in an hour 2pm. FC was at about 11ppm (Thought I was actually going to win this one).

I just checked the pool @ 4:00pm. The pool now has a brownish coating evenly distributed on the bottom of the pool which gives it a sortof purplish hue in the shady areas looking at the water. I guess my Metals fell out! Been here before and it aint pretty. See some of my other posts from a few years ago.

I'm open to any/all suggestions at this point. I'm not doing anything until I hear back from someone on this forum.

Here's the chemistry at 4pm:

FC 7.5
CC 0
TC 7.5
PH 7.0
ALK 120
Cal 100

Looks like this will be another season of HELL! This is really depressing. I tried so hard. Any one have any ideas. Please take a look at my older posts.

[Watermom]

I'm gonna ask Marie (mbar) to take a look at this thread. She is our resident metal expert. Hang tight. We'll help you get this cleared up and on to the business of enjoying your pool!

[szampino]

Watermom,

Thanks. Mbar helped me out 2 years ago when I tried being a pool owner the first time. I was able to avoid it last year but the kids wouldn't let that happen this year so here I am.....With a big 'S' on my forehead for 'Sucker'!

I'm a firm believer in not doing things the same way twice and expecting different results, so... Last time I focused on the Metals, this time I'm going to focus on the sanitation, first, so when I have to lower the FC levels to deal with the Metals, I will at least have handled any bacteria/etc. And I could feel comfortable keeping the FC levels at the 'Best Guess' range without having to bring it to shock again. And the Brown is already there so I know it isn't going anywhere.

So this is what I did:

at around 5:30pm, I added another 1/2 gal of bleach (6%) into the pool to raise the FC back to 'Shock' level. Based on my last dosage and 4pm reading, I figured my FC should go up in the right range.

I just checked at 10pm and my readings are as follows:

FC-13 (drop test-10ml)
CC -0
TC- 13
PH - 7.0
Alk - 110
CYA - 0 (Haven't even tried to play with this)

2 things to note. My PH is very stable (Lovin this). My FC also held much longer then I expected, and I'm sure it is because of 'Non-Sun' at this hour, however I can't wait to see what happens overnight. (please pray for no rain - I can't handle another variable yet)

If my FC holds (shock level-10+-) overnight, I'm going to consider that I have clean/algee/bacteria free water and will let the FC lower throughout the day and Add/see if my Sequestering agent will remove the staining. ( I have a little more Ascorbic Acid left over from 2006 but don't want to add another chemical into the mix at this point).

If the staining disappears (please keep your fingers crossed) I will begin to raise my FC levels with 'Triclor'(Stabalized Chlorine tablets) tabs very slowly to introduce some CYA into the water so my Bleach will have better staying power.

Please let me know if anyone disagrees with this approach and could suggest a better alternative --(besides shooting the pool)

[szampino]

Morning Reading.

FC - 13 (Held over night - Yippee)
CC - 0
TC - 13
PH - 7.2 (Went up a bit)
Alk - 120 (Went up a bit)
**Water still appears crystal clear with the exception of the ugly bottom of the pool.

I'm at a Crossroad, and could use some advice.

My plan was to let the FC go down on its own today and then I would begin dealing with my metals. However, The weather reports say it is going to Rain.

Q1. Should I continue to keep the FC at Shock level to get past the rain and then start working on my metals? (i'm leaning to yes)

Q2. Under normal pool maintenance, do you bring your FC to shock level after a rainstorm? And if you do, how long do you keep it there?

Q3. Am I the only one on this forum that has this problem?

[Watermom]

Q1. Should I continue to keep the FC at Shock level to get past the rain and then start working on my metals? (i'm leaning to yes)

I think you are right, get past the rain and then work on the metals. And, hopefully by then Marie will have had a chance to take a look at this thread. (I asked her to do so.)

Q2. Under normal pool maintenance, do you bring your FC to shock level after a rainstorm? And if you do, how long do you keep it there?

I don't always shock after rain unless a bunch of debris has gotten into the pool. As a matter of fact, I rarely shock my pool unless a whole bunch of kids have been in there swimming which doesn't happen often. As long as you monitor your chlorine readings consistenly and don't let it drop below what your minimum should be, you really don't need to shock. Of course, if you are having water problems you are trying to clear or have a CC reading, then you should shock.

Q3. Am I the only one on this forum that has this problem?

Most certainly not!


Hang in there! :)

[szampino]

Update:

Around 12pm earlier this afternoon I added a little more bleach to keep my FC up, I added about 1qt just to get a 10(+-) reading during the rain. I checked my PH and it appeared to be creeping up a little Alk was still between 110 - 120.

At 8pm, I did another check and PH creeped a little above 7.2 however FC was right about where I wanted it. (10+-) (Still haven't put any CYA in yet. Since I am planning to begin my metal treatment tomorrow I wanted to keep the PH around 7 so I added 1/2 cup of Muratic Acid. Waited about 45 minutes and took another full reading:

FC = 9.5
CC = 0
TC = 9.5
PH = 7.0 (scaring myself a little because I got the MA measurement right)
ALK = 110-120

Q1. How do I drop the FC? I will need to bring it way down to deal with my metals?

Q2. Do I need to check the CYA even if I haven't added any through Tri-tabs or directly? Does it just get created from a natural process, or from the BBB method?

[Watermom]

The FC will come down on its own especially on a hot sunny day. If you haven't added any trichlor tabs or any cya directly, then you do not need to test for it.

[mbar]

Hi, sorry to not replying sooner, but I was away. I think you are on the right track! You should now put in some of your pucks - they will keep your ph low (you don't want to go over 7.2 now). I would not add any ascorbic acid yet. Just put in some more sequestering agent. This may take your ph and chlorine down. The additional sequestering agent should take the stains away, since they are just new. I have used a new metal sequester that I really liked this year called Doheny's Water Warehouse Extra-Strength Metal Out. I had some staining from the high chlorine levels at the beginning of the season, and this took them away. It did cloud the water a little, but it is clearing. Just keep track of the ph. Metal sequesters often bring the ph down, and so do the trichlor pucks. The thing is that you do want your ph low - it will lift the metals off - so it is a delicate balancing act until the water is sanitized and the stains are gone;) . In my opinion you were right to do the sanitizing of the water first. The metal problem is really a pain - but it is much more important to have a clean pool. I have found that waiting a while for the sequestering agent to work is best (it may take a couple of days) before having to do the ascorbic acid treatment, because it is hard to get the water rebalanced after the treatment, and much easier to do it with the metal sequestering agent. Once you get your water balanced and stain free - you should not have to shock your water if you keep the chlorine levels steady. If you do have to shock, then always make sure your ph is down at least 7.2 before shocking, and if you see any stains start to form, then add more sequestering agent. Hope this helps, and feel free to ask any other questions you have:)

[szampino]

Pool Forum Masters - Thank you.

I'm feeling pretty good right now - (hope I just didn't set myself up!)

Yesterday, I let my FC drop to about .5 - 1, made sure my PH was about 7.0, vacumed the bottom of the pool (which lifted some of the brown) then I shut the filter, cleaned it, and added about 26oz of a Metal Treatment solution all around the inside perimeter of the pool (basic stuff - HTH-Metal Control). I left the filter off for about 40 minutes then turned it back on for the rest of the evening. Overnight I added 1 (One Inch) HTH Stabalized chlorine puck to the pool to keep the chlorine low but also begin adding some CYA.

This morning the pool looks pretty good. There is definatley some staining on the pool floor but I can deal with that through vacuming and I'm not expecting perfection from this type of pool.

My readings are as follows:
FC= 1
CC= 0
TC= 1
PH= 7.2
ALK= 100
Cal = 80
CYA= 0

Here is my plan: Keep the Chlorine level at between 1-3 while my CYA is still at 0. As it increases I will maintain my FC accordingly. I'm going to try and keep my PH between 7.0 and 7.2.

Q1. Filter/Pump Questions
How often should I run my filter/pump?
How long should I let it run for when on?
When should I run it? (Morning/Afternoon/Evening)

[mbar]

very good:) I am so happy to hear it!! You sound like you have a great plan. The stains will probably lift as the metal out does it's job with the lower ph. Just keeping the pucks in will keep your ph under control, as they tend to bring the ph down, and will give you enough stabilized chlorine to keep the pool sanitized. Just make sure you keep testing so that the ph doesn't go too low and damage the pool. Keep us informed.:)

[szampino]

My pool hates me and I hate it!

Yesterday, the water was crystal clear, Most of the staining on the bottom of the pool was gone except in the corners and I really thought I had everything under control.

All chemicals were in check.

I began floating a Trichlor-Chlorine tab in the pool to introduce CYA. Checked all the levels before I went to bed:
FC - 1.5
CC - 0
TC - 1.5
PH - 7.2
Alk - 100
Cal - 80
CYA - 0

I woke up this morning to a pool that looks greenish (Can't be algea) I actually think the water is pretty clear but I'm guessing my metals came out in the water again which is causing my Blue & White liner to make the water look green (yellow metal and Blue/white liner). This also happened 2 years ago.

Here are my readings:
FC - 2.5
CC - 0
TC - 2.5
PH - 7.3
Alk - 100
Cal - 80
CYA - 0

Now I could really use a shoulder to lean on!

Here is my plan: I'm going to lower the PH to about 7.0, and try to keep the FC around 1.5 (hoping some of the Chlorine will burn off during the day) and then take another water test around 3pm.

[mbar]

Hmmm - I'm thinking the chlorine is reacting more quickly to precipitate metals with the low cya. I have tried running my pool with a low cya, and did have more staining. This year I am trying to run a higher cya and see what happens. Maybe you can try getting some cya, and adding a little, this way you can use regular bleach so you can control the amount you are putting in. this way the chlorine can be raised gradually. I know how you feel about hating the pool:D I feel that way too sometimes, it is all a learning experience, and the stupid water doesn't always react the way it is supposed to :mad: . The only thing I know for sure is that high ph with high chlorine allows metals to fall out. The rest is trial and error. Even the amounts that are needed for the sequestering agent, and ph and chlorine can vary. I do find that using bleach does make staining less likely than using pucks or calhypo. I don't have any scientific proof, just my experiments that I have been trying from year to year. Don't get discouraged, you will find what works for your pool - I would also suggest adding more sequestering agent. Sometimes the water needs more than the directions on the bottle say. If you need more metal out, try a different one this time. I hope this helps, feel free to ask any other questions you have, and keep us informed. It is always a learning experience and we can learn from each other so we can post different ways of fighting those rotten stains:D

[szampino]

I want to run a theory by everyone.

Last night, I put a small 1" Triclor tab into my skimmer and additionally had floated a 3" Trichlor tab (in a floater holder) in the path of my return flow.

Keep in mind that since my pool only has one skimmer and it is a direct pull to my pump/filter the draw is very strong.

Could the Trichlor tab in the skimmer disolved so rapidly due to the water flow that it created a 'High' chlorine level flow at the filter which in turn casued the metals to 'Fall out' and be pushed back into the pool at the return. And the fact that I also floated another tab in the return flow gave the metals in the return another chance to live as they entered the water?

Let me know what you think?

[aylad]

I think it's more possible that the 3" puck in the return flow chlorinated the water enough to let the metals fall back out of suspension. Actually, I've heard of instances where the practice of putting a puck in the skimmer is used sometimes to force the metals to "fall out" onto the filter, preventing it from returning to the pool.

Janet

[szampino]

Here is the latest:

Earlier this morning I reduced my PH to about 7.0 with a little MA. I pulled out my Floating Trichlor Tab and let the sun reduce my FC to about .5 - 1. I added about 6 oz of Pool Magnet Plus(left over from last treatment) and 20 oz of HTH Metal Control while letting my pump continue to run.

After a few hours, the pool is back to its Crystal Clarity down to the bottom. (With the exception of some larger stains that I couldn't get during the last vacuum job)

I added about 1qt of Bleach to bring my FC back to 1-2. I also added back the 3" floater in the return path of the water. ( I am planning to remove the floater when my Chlorine gets to the right level and begins to hold) I also went to the pool store and bought some CYA(Stabalizer). I am dissolving about 1lb of the product in a container and adding it to the pool return flow (No more skimmer dosing for me) to bring my CYA up to about 10ppm and am hoping that it will be enough to maintain my FC levels to at least a daily dosing.

**According to the Stabalizer instruction 1lb per 3000 gal gets you 40ppm, 1lb per 4000 gets you 30ppm so I'm guessing 1lb per 8000 should get me about 10ppm.

Open Question: How often and how long and when(Day/Night) should I run my filter?

[Watermom]

I have my pump on a timer to run from noon to about 7 pm. I may change it to let it run to more like 8 pm because I don't seem to get out there to add bleach until after dinner each evening and I want my pump to run for an hour or so after adding it. Other people will have a different schedule. Unless you are having water problems of some sort, 8 hours or so is fine.

[szampino]

Are there any Pros/Cons as to when the filter runs?

I like the idea of running the filter a little after a bleach application, however I would like to run it overnight.

Are there any rules of thumb to use regarding when a filter should be run? Day vs Night?

[Watermom]

Mostly a matter of preference. Some places have peak hours where the rate is more expensive, others don't. If you have solar panels, you want to be circulating water during peak sun hours for maximum heating benefit. If you have solar panels and your pool is too hot, you can run the water through the panels at night to cool the water down. As long as you run your pump long enough to turn the water over at least once per day, you will be fine. Some people do 24/7 which is really unnecessary and wastes electricity. Some people do a couple of different sessions per day -- each about 4 hours. Some turn it on when they get up in the morning and off when they go to bed. I do 12-8 to maximize heat gain from my solar panels. There is no one right answer.

[szampino]

Hopefully my last post to this thread.

Man vs pool =
Week 1 - Pool
Week 2 - Man

FC = 2.5
CC = 0
TC = 0
PH = 7.0
ALK = 110
CYA = (Still adjusting with Stabalizer) targeting 10-15

I am happy to announce that I think I've trained my pool or perhaps my pool has trained me. Through a little POP, the support from all on this forum, and a little give and take with the pool. We have come to a position of mutual respect. All I need to do is be sensitive to the pools needs, don't make any drastic changes, be careful how I introduce those changes, and in return, the pool will give me crystal clear water. I wonder if pools get moody once a month because this relationship sounds very familliar.....

Once again, thanks to all.

Q. How important is the ALK number? If my PH is stable, do I need to mess with ALK?

[Watermom]

Very clever post! Had to laugh out loud when I read the "this relationship sounds very familiar" part! ;)

Your alk is fine at 110. Watch the ph and don't let it drop any lower than 7.0. Also, FC + CC = TC, so if your FC and CC are correct above, then your TC (total cl) is also 2.5. Targeting 10-15 on stabilizer is fine, but you may find it difficult to maintain chlorine throughout the day especially when it is really hot and sunny. If so, you can always bump the cya level up some. As you said above, you'll learn what your pool needs in time. All of your statements about no drastic changes, etc. are right on.

Glad we could help. Keep us posted how things are going and if you have more questions, we'll still be here willing and able!

By the way, glad the 'man' won. That is usually the case when you have POP! :)

[mbar]

Especially at those "once a month times":cool:

[aylad]

Especially at those "once a month times":cool:

HA!!:D



Just a comment to add to the question about running the pump day or night. I run mine primarily during the day in the spring and fall, because it's easier for me to keep an eye on what's in the skimmer. In the heat of the summer, I often run it at night with a fountain to cool off my water. In Lousiana, at a certain point, pool water begins to feel like bath water!! Also, during the winter, I run it at night anytime the temp is going to get below the mid 20's or so to keep my pipes from freezing. Basically, when you run your pump really is geared toward your needs.

Janet

[szampino]

I was asked to update the post with my progress so here it it is.

My name is szampino and I am a pool owner. I have been crystal clear for the past 3 days and owe this success to my forum sponsors. I know the road ahead will be challenging but I know with the support and guidance from this group, I will remain crystal clear for the rest of the summer. I've read a few posts recently with people batteling their own problems and have one thing to say which is solely based on my own issues. Patience, Patience, Patience, Patience. Make one change at a time and wait, wait, wait, wait. You need a good test kit. You need a forum reccomended test kit. I have been at my breaking point and wanted to dump 4 boxes of Borax just to see a change. It is very hard to take action without seeing immediate results, you need patience. I have the luxury of working from home so I can attend to my pool multiple times a day, this must be very hard for those that work because you have to cram your treatments into small chunks of time.

Water seems so simple, but put it in a confined environment and is becomes a complex beast with attitude. Think of some of the destruction water has done through history. *Have you seen the Grand Canyon Lately. Treat it with respect and you will have a better chance of finding a balance.

[stma]

Appreciate the post, and I'm happy to find that you solved the issue....could you let me know if the metals were the true problem with your water ?....

[szampino]

Metals were 100% the problem.

Here is the issue that I found, and my 'so far' working remedy.

I added Pool Magnet and Metal Control to the water before shocking. Even when I get to the 'Best Guess Chart' Shock FC level. the Sequestering agent does not keep the Metals from falling out. So this is what has happened 2 years ago when I tried and the difference this year.

1. When the Metals fell out 2 years ago, I was going crazy between the forum and the pool store. The water was ugly, I was new to metals so I kept shocking and the water kept being ugly. I was also using Stabalized Chlorine which brought my CYA levels higher and required Higher FC levels. Then I learned about metals so I stopped shocking and began to treat the metals. Because I waited so long to begin treating the metals it took a long time to deal with metals, which means, I had my Chlorine levels very low for a long time, which in return caused Algea, which means I had to raise my FC's again and the viscious cycle began again.

2. This year I decided to conentrate on the water chemical balance and how it looks 2nd (What is on the inside is what counts). Small Adjustments I think is the key, and I still believe that putting the puck in the skimmer caused my metals to fall out the 2nd time, even though others don't agree. (See post).

If things change I'll repost.

[stma]

Sounds familiar as this (I believe) is NOW my identical problem....My FC number now is +30 ppm as i kept adding bleach in hopes to clear the water....

I just bought Natural Chemistry's Metal Free....Do you know if I need to drop my chlorine levels BEFORE i begin this particular treatment...????.....I know i need to drop the levels when I do the Ascorbic treatment via MBar's reccomendation, but i'm not certain wether it needs to be dropped for the metal out ??

Any advice you could lend would be appreciated...

[mbar]

The reason the free chlorine levels need to be low is that the chlorine will attack the metal control and use it up before it can do the job. It won't hurt anything but your wallet:D . I know it is hard when dealing with metals - because it is frustrating. But szampino is right, most of it is having the patience to let the chemicals do their job. It is easy to try to fix the water by adding more and more things, but it destroys the whole balance. Adding something before what you added first can do it's job will only make clearing the water take a lot more time, and use up a lot more money. Simple is best, less is best. Patience is the least expensive, but the most difficult part of clearing a pool:D