Chemicals-1st time buyer questions

[DanS]

I would like to reduce my chemical costs, but I want to make sure I buy the right stuff. I have a salt water chlorinator, so I am focused on opening the pool, and I will not be adding chlorine on a regular basis, but I expect to shock at opening.
Chlorine - Can I use any kind of bleach, or are there specific things that need to be in the bleach or not in the bleach?
Salt - Are there different types, good or bad, etc.?
Baking Soda - Any specific concerns here?

Any good info on brands and stores would also be great.
Thanks for your help,
Dan

[badutahboy]

I would like to reduce my chemical costs, but I want to make sure I buy the right stuff. I have a salt water chlorinator, so I am focused on opening the pool, and I will not be adding chlorine on a regular basis, but I expect to shock at opening.
Chlorine - Can I use any kind of bleach, or are there specific things that need to be in the bleach or not in the bleach?
Salt - Are there different types, good or bad, etc.?
Baking Soda - Any specific concerns here?

Any good info on brands and stores would also be great.
Thanks for your help,
Dan

Bleach.. you want regular bleach with no special additives... most name brand bleaches are 5.25%, but you can also use "extra strength" 6%... again, the most important thing is don't use anything fragranced or with any kind of preservative/other added chemicals... simple bleach.

Salt... you want the highest purity of salt you can find... and not iodized salt.. water softener salt is most recommended...

Baking soda.. it's all the same.

[chem geek]

In Canada, regular bleach is 5.25% and Ultra bleach is 6% as described above, but in the U.S., Clorox Regular bleach is 6% and identified as such on the bottle (which also says "5.7% Available Chlorine") while off-brand Ultra bleach is usually 6%, but not often marked, and off-brand Regular bleach is often 3% or lower. So it's best to stick with Clorox Regular or an possibly an off-brand Ultra bleach.

Richard

[Watermom]

I always buy Walmart's ultra bleach. Cheaper than Clorox and also 6%.

[CarlD]

Chlorine--Regular or Ultra unscented, non-sudsing, non-gelling bleach--Chlorox now has an added whitener that MAY or may NOT be good for pool water--so stay with the house brands. Liquid Chlorine (LC) at the pool stores can be cheaper or more expensive.

Regular bleach is 5.25% If the pool store LC is 12% and costs no more than 2x the bleach it's a good price.

Baking soda? Any brand. But the pool stores sell it as "Total Alkalinity Raiser" and it's insanely expensive that way--and still only baking soda.

Washing Soda: This is the same as Soda Ash or the pool store "pH Up!" or equivalent. It's the same stuff. Arm'n'Hammer sells it in the YELLOW box (not orange) and it's in the laundry section, usually next to the Borax. It's super-cheap--less than $.80/lb here in NJ.

Borax: The only kind I ever see is 20 Mule Team Borax. It's for raising pH but doesn't raise Total Alkalinity the way Washing Soda does. If you have Borax and Baking soda, you don't need Washing Soda.

The ONLY things you can only get from pool stores or the pool sections are:
Stabilizer or CYA (Cyanuric Acid)
Dry Acid (powdered pH lowering)
PolyQuat algaecide (the only type of algaecide we recommend).

[waterbear]

Since everything except the salt has been covered I will let you in on a litte secret. I work in a pool store and (this comes right from the manufacturer) the ONLY difference between the solar salt and the pools salt is that the pool salt is ground into a finer crystal. Other wise they are the same salt. The pool salt will dissolve a bit faster but is that really worth almost double the price? Not to me!
You can save a lot of money by getting solar water softener salt or even salt pellets as long as they are at least 99.5% pure (it's on the bag) and have no additives for removing iron or cleaning the water softener resin added. You can save even more money (and destroy your back in the process) by getting them in the 80 lb bags instead of the 40 lb ones.
Stay away from food grade salt. It is NOT suitable for pool use because it contains additives to keep it from caking and these can cause iron stains in your pool.

[chem geek]

Chlorine--Regular or Ultra unscented, non-sudsing, non-gelling bleach--Chlorox now has an added whitener that MAY or may NOT be good for pool water--so stay with the house brands.
Carl,

I wrote to Clorox about this and here is their response:

In April 2005 we added sodium polyacrylate. This is a polymer that binds to the minerals in the wash water. This helps prevent the minerals from reacting with the bleach and yellowing the clothes. This additive should have no effect in the use of the product in swimming pools.

This link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWaivm9XpNg) shows a cool video about the absorbency of sodium polyacrylate which is used in many disposable diapers. In pool water, this polymer will not absorb water in the way shown because ions in the water (such as salt, bicarbonate, etc.) interact with water more readily than the polymer.

It appears that the polymer is a scale inhibitor (see this link (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TJ6-4NWNCW9-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=d18fa200ca6b6dd546a8a41d2d87b4d6)) by inhibiting the rate of formation of calcium carbonate particles. This may mean that it adheres to pool plaster surfaces.

I wrote to Clorox with my concern that this additive could sequester calcium and that it could build up over time in pools. I'll let y'all know what I find out when I hear back from them.

Richard

[CarlD]

Richard,

Cool! So...we STILL don't know if it's a problem, a bonus or irrelevant. Still, since Chlorox costs more that generic, I'd stick with generic until we know.

CarlD

[waterbear]

It is the main ingredient in some polymeric pool water clarifiers.

[mbar]

Richard, do you think that since it sequesters calcium (which is a metal), it would help with staining in fiberglass pools? I know you will be able to explain it to me why it would work, and why not. Thanks:)

[chem geek]

Right now it is unclear whether this actually sequesters (binds to and reduces the effective concentration of) calcium which is what Clorox was implying or whether it just inhibits the growth of calcium carbonate crystals just slowing down the rate of scale growth but not changing its potential to form which is what was said in the link I found. This is what I asked Clorox so let's wait until I hear back from them before deciding on the effects of this chemical.

I suspect that in any event the quantity is so small (even accumulated over seasons) that it has minimal effect on the relatively large Calcium Hardness (CH) levels in pools. Based on waterbear's comment, this chemical may clarify the water and get filtered out (he also talks about this compound in this post (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?p=39000&postcount=2)). So I think there is a good chance that this sodium polyacrylate doesn't sequester calcium, but we'll see (Wikipedia here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_polyacrylate) says that acrylates bind to metals, but take this with a grain of salt, so to speak).

Richard

[chem geek]

I just received the following response from Clorox:

Sodium polyacrylate was added to the product to bind with impurities in the water such as iron and manganese. Unfortunately, I have no information available on how it reacts with calcium. I apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.

Clorox Germicidal Bleach does not contain the Sodium polyacrylate. Unfortunately, this product is not usually available through most retail outlets. Occasionally, it may be available through club stores or home improvement stores.

So unfortunately we still don't know what this does with calcium. This link (http://www.springerlink.com/content/1b1rug7qltfpc6ry/) seems to indicate that calcium does get bound to sodium polyacrylate causing it to collapse (form balls) but that excess sodium reverses this. So in a pool with a higher level of (sodium) salt, there would be less sequestering of the calcium. The problem is I have no idea of the quantities we are talking about here.

As Carl says, it's safer to use an off-brand Ultra bleach that is less likely to have this additive, or the Clorox Germicidal Bleach that Clorox mentioned. I'll still try and find out more.

Richard

[mbar]

Thanks Richard, it's so nice to have someone explain it all:)