Opening Numbers

[BigStein]

I seem to have made a mistake and not titled my last thread. Here is the info. again.

Well, the temps were in the upper 70's up here in NH today so decided to take off the cover and start getting the pool ready for the season. Opening numbers:

FC: 6.2 (without adding any, seemed to have held nicely over the winter)
CC: 0
pH: 7.1
Alkalinity: 20
CYA: 20
Copper: .67

Even though it says to bring FC down before doing so, I added a quart of metal sequestering agent. I figure it is worth it if some gets eaten up and I can add more if needed. Tomorrow I will start to pick up the Alkalinity, which will raise the pH a bit, but I understand with metal issues I want to keep the pH a bit on the low side so hopefully it will come in range as I deal with the alkalinity.

I am also thinking I won't bother to raise the CYA at all as I do like the convenience of the smart sticks and will use those until my CYA gets higher and then convert over to all bleach (I shock with that when needed already) later in the summer if needed.

Does that sound about right or are there things I should do differently?

Thanks for the input.

[CarlD]

I deleted the dupl thread for you. Not a problem.

If you use sticks or pucks, watch your pH--they are very acid and will push it down.

Unless you have a metal problem don't use a sequestering agent. This is not a case of prevention. Of course, if you do have a problem....

[BigStein]

Thanks for deleting the post.

The copper is the problem, thus the agent.

I know what you mean about the sticks pushing the pH down, and will keep an eye on it as it has been a problem in the past. Thanks for the input.

[BigStein]

A check on the pool this morning shows the water a bit cloudy and still off color. I also see what I believe are fallouts from the copper on areas of the bottom (I believe this due to my experience with copper last year, which can be found in the metals section under "baking soda turned my pool green"). I also noticed a lot of this stuff when I first took the cover off yesterday. Much of it is gone now but there is still enough that I think the pool needs a few more quarts of metal treatment. Not sure if the problem is worse than the water test picked up or if it is just that some of the initial treatment was done in by my 6.2 chlorine.

Anyway, I have started to bring the alkalinity up, which will hopefully bring up the pH a bit too as I believe that sequestrant brings it down a bit. Either way, I will adjust accordingly with Borax in the coming days (luckily, I am taking a few vacation days to get some spring work done around the house and have plenty of time to deal with this so don't feel the need to add everything at once).

[aylad]

Sounds like you're on track...just try to resist the temptation to "fix" everything at once and create a bigger problem. Swim season is almost here!!!!! :cool:

Janet

[BigStein]

Today, I added two more quarts of sequestrant and did raise the alkalinity. I just tested and show alkalinity at 100 now and pH came out below 7.0 (as low as my test goes). I still show chlorine around 5. However, my water remains a cloudy blue. The way the water looks I would normally add a gallon or two of bleach to clear it but don't want to raise to shock levels with the sequestrant in the pool (plus, my chloring numbers look good). Any ideas out there?

[aylad]

Mbar, the resident metals/stain expert, recommends that you do not shock the pool, but rather raise the chlorine levels slowly, watching to make sure that you don't start get staining. In your case I think I would just keep the filter going, consider adding some plolyquat, and then start slowly raising your chlorine and see if you can get it up to shock level without staining. I'll see if I can get her to take a look at your thread and see if she can offer any suggestions....in the meantime, try reading through her posts in the "metals" forum.

Janet

[BigStein]

I have read most of those posts and am not going to take up to shock at this point. Right now, I am just going to let the filter run and see what happens. Can't get my water tested for metals until Monday so will probably just sit tight between now and then.

[CarlD]

Just to piggy-back, I started my opening today, too!:rolleyes:

First thing I did after the safety mesh was off was test the water:
FC:0
CC:0
TC:0
pH: ~7.0
T/A: 0-10 ppm
Calcium: 20 ppm
CYA: 0

Despite this the water was (as it usually is at opening) clear. Lots of junk on the bottom, and some algae on the walls, but I tossed in the Blue Diamond for the first pass and 2 gallons of 12.5% LC. Just for starters.

Tomorrow, I'm going to hook up the pump and drop the return and drain plugs and get it filtering. Probably add a stack of Tri-chlor in a floater or two for chlorine and CYA and a box of Washing Soda for pH AND T/A.

[BigStein]

Sunday morning update. The water may have cleared a little bit, but not much. The filter pressure was up about 10 from yesterday so backwashed. Chlorine is holding fine, came in at 5. There continues to be some sediment, which I think is the fallout from metal, although I find this surprising given that I have put in 3 bottles of sequestering agent and there is no green color that I had with the copper last season. pH is still below 7 and I don't think I am going to bring this up much until after I figure out the cloudiness, as I know the sequesterant works best at lower pH (feel free to correct me if anyone thinks I need to start bringing this up now).

Not much I can do today as we have company here, so will get metals re-tested at the pool store tomorrow.

[aylad]

If your pool is a vinyl pool, then your pH needs to at least come up to 7.0 to keep from being too acidic so the liner gets damaged.

Janet

[mbar]

Hi, Do you have any calcium in your pool? Is it a vinyl liner? Just a few more numbers. :) Sometimes when adding sequestering agent the water gets cloudy, as it causes fallout of calcium, and metals, and sometimes alkalinity. This is when the water gets saturated with too much stuff - I know it isn't scientific, but it is my experience that this happens a lot. I would just let it filter 24/7 for a few more days. I wouldn't add any chlorine, and I would test the alkalinity and calcium again to see if it is lower now. If the water doesn't clear up in a week, then I would take the chlorine up to shock to break down the remaining sediment. If you have a vinyl liner, then it is important to get the ph back up to 7, as aylad says, but don't let it get higher than 7.2 for a while. Please feel free to ask any questions you may have, and let us know how things turn out

[BigStein]

The pool is vinyl liner and the total hardness measured at 40 when I had the water tested (no specific number for calcium). I did add a little under a gallon of bleach this morning just to see if it would help and have noticed some clearing of the cloudiness today. There continues to be some sediment (or fallout from the metal) and I vacuumed that twice today. The filter is taking something out as I just had to backwash (DE filter) due to pressure build up (and had to backwash yesterday as well). I tested pH earlier today and then added a cup of Borax and just tested again and it is still low so put in another cup, I will continue to do this two or three times a day until I get it to 7.1 or 7.2 but understand not to go higher. I will re-test alkalinity in the morning.

All in all, it does seem to be just a matter of time. The water certainly seems clean other than the cloudiness. Will post tomorrow morning with any changes that take place overnight.

As always, thanks for the help.

[BigStein]

Monday morning and the pool has cleared more. Looks like patience is the key. Will get my water tested today or tomorrow at the store but I just ran pH and it is still low so still adding Borax a cup at a time. Will do another alkalinity a bit later too.

[aylad]

Hang in there, you're doing it all right and your efforts will pay off. Patience is the key!

Janet

[BigStein]

Thanks for the input Janet. As I say, things are clearing up nicely so not worried at this point. I will just do the Borax thing for now and backwash the filter as necessary. Threw the solar cover on and turned on the heater this morning as the kids are getting anxious to swim, even though the water is only 50 degrees! I have a heat pump so will take a few days to get the water even close to swimming temp. although we are expecting warmer weather through the week so I am guessing the kids will jump in on Thursday or Friday, even though it likely will not be warm enough for me.

[BigStein]

I keep forgetting to mention that the pool store guy, after hearing that I shock with bleach, said that he does not recommend that due to "the carginogens" in bleach. I didn't want to argue with him but it certainly sounds like he is saying that bleach may just give us all cancer:rolleyes:

[CarlD]

I keep forgetting to mention that the pool store guy, after hearing that I shock with bleach, said that he does not recommend that due to "the carginogens" in bleach. I didn't want to argue with him but it certainly sounds like he is saying that bleach may just give us all cancer:rolleyes:

It's not the bleach, it's the chlorine. Chlorine can cause cancer. But the risk from unsanitary water is hundreds or thousands of times greater than the risk of chlorine-induced cancer.

They usually tell you "It adds to your dissolved solids". Yeah. But bleach is made from salt water (Sodium Chloride, NaCl--from high school chemistry) and the solution it's in is saline--so the dissolved solid is....salt. Funny thing: When you have a salt-water generator (again, chlorine from salt) you have to add LOTS of salt to your pool which drives your dissolved solids 'WAY up...yet that's OK.

See, it's all BS (Barnyard Slush) because pool stores don't make money if you:
1 ) buy bleach, Borax, Baking Soda and Washing Soda instead of tri-chlor, Soda ash and "Total Alkalinity Raiser".
2) You don't buy clarifiers, sequestrants, calcium, copper-based algaecides, or the latest...Phosphate removers.
3) Pool store water testing inevitably leads to recommendations of lots of additives--like 20 lbs of calcium in a vinyl pool.
4) No pool store sells the kind of test kits we recommend. I was amazed to actually find the FAS-DPD test kit as a stand-alone in a Leslies--and it was the only one they ever had.
5) They get their info from the pool chem companies, which are INCREDIBLY mis-leading about what their chems are, and what they do.

[BigStein]

I must say, at least this guy didn't try to push me when I said I already had the chemicals I needed at home.

Got another set of numbers from the store today while I was there to pick up some DE:

Free Chlorine: 5.3
CC: .8
pH: 7.1
Alkalinity: 100
Copper: 1.19
CYA: 25

A little dismayed to see the copper actually higher than my original, but then again the original number was taken from water before I started any of the equipment or stirred stuff up. I have seen less fallout from the copper than there was when I opened the pool and it is lessing daily so I just added some more sequestrant and that should take care of that problem. I will hold off on adding more chlorine while that stuff does it's work, even though I show CC. Good to see my alkalinity is up and pH is almost where I need it, I continue to test for that once or twice a day and have been adding Borax a cup at a time as needed.

The heat pump is doing it's job too so the kids may just be in the water by the end of the week.

[CarlD]

You can leave your T/A and pH where it is. Chlorine is more effective at lower pH levels and you do have some CC and, because of the copper, cannot raise FC much. So leave pH at 7.1 and get the most bang for the buck. Raise it when you actually start swimming.

[BigStein]

Thanks for the input Carl. I will do just as you suggest. The water is up to 62 degrees now and warmer weather expected tomorrow so the heat pump will be working even more efficiently, hopefully swimming by the weekend.

[BigStein]

Finally got warm again here in NH, well, around 75 anyway. The water was up to 80 so the kids and I enjoyed some time in the pool. The water has cleared beautifully since my last post, although I need to stay on top of my pH constantly as it loves to drop. No big deal though as Borax is plentiful enough.