Air Leak? (from bad O-rings in Jandy valves)

[cajunfla]

After having the renters from hell burn up my pump motor, I have replaced it, along with all o-rings I can find, I still have an air leak. At least I think it is an air leak. The pump basket does not fill up with water. Where the suspected leak is, is where the water flows right out of the pump upward to a diverter valve.

I have put lots of teflon tape here, but still not tight. Water seeps out of there. Would this cause the 'not full' pump basket? It seems to have not enough pressure to get up to the solar panels to heat the water, because it sure is not warm water returning to the pool. Lots of air bubbles coming out of the returns too.

[waste]

I hope the renters didn't get their security deposit back! The one leak you know about is on the effluent side of the pump - if water is leaking out, air can't be getting sucked in there when the pump is running (however, when the pump is off, that leak can kill the prime, but that would only effect the first few minutes of operation) What I usually do is put the o-ring off a threaded plug (SP 1022-C) on the male adapter with a couple extra wraps of teflon tape and only tighten it enough to have the o-ring seal (without pinching so much it looses it's shape/ seal!)

As said, the leak you described would not allow air into the pump while it's running. The usual reasons for air in the pump while it's running are:
1) The pump lid gasket not fully sealing
2)A bad threaded or glued connection (including the winterizing plugs on the pump) or faulty valve
3) Not enough water in the pool, allowing the skimmer (s) to suck air (or a stuck skimmer weir, which would starve the skimmer)
4) A broken suction line underground:mad:
5) An obstruction in a suction line causing cavitation

To check anything above ground you can slowly dribble water over any suspect area and watch the bubbles in the pump basket to see if they lessen or go away - if they do, you've found a leak (sometimes there are more than 1) [I use my free hand to cup the water on the bottom of a horizontal pipe to be sure the water will get drawn into a bottom side leak]

You can pressure test any suspect line to determine if it's leaking.

Obstructions are harder to detect - if you have access to an electrician's snake, you could run that through any suspect pipe to see if it freely passes through (on a long run with lot's of elbows, the snake may not pass through anyway:confused: ) Another way would be to run a garden hose from the pump inlet (you can wrap a cloth around the hose to help it seal the pipe) and look for debris being blown through the suction port.

That's the 'basics' of what's probably going on, if you try a few of the things I've mentioned and can't find the solution, let us know (or if I haven't fully explained myself well {it happens more frequently than I'd care to admit:rolleyes: }, I'm here almost every day and I'll give it another shot)

[cajunfla]

Thanks for the quick response. The pool is the least of the renter-caused problems.

I do have solar panels for the pool on the roof, but they are not leaking any water.

Pump lid gasket? referring to the basket on the pump? If so, it has a new lubricated o-ring. "shouldn't" be leaking there. Replaced all o-rings I could find while replacing the motor, including the filter cover, pressure relief valve o-ring, and the broken pressure gauge.

Winterizing plugs....pool not winterized as it rarely freezes here in north Florida for more than a few hours on any given night. Just keep the pump running hopefully. All plumbing is below the surface of the ground until just before the pump and just after the filter on the return run.

Pool water is actually to the top of the skimmer inlet box. Lots of rain the past week.

Broken suction line.....would that show up as soft mushy ground in the area of the break from water leaking out?

Obstruction in line.....using the garden hose, do you mean blow water back into the pool in a reverse type flow?




I hope the renters didn't get their security deposit back! The one leak you know about is on the effluent side of the pump - if water is leaking out, air can't be getting sucked in there when the pump is running (however, when the pump is off, that leak can kill the prime, but that would only effect the first few minutes of operation) What I usually do is put the o-ring off a threaded plug (SP 1022-C) on the male adapter with a couple extra wraps of teflon tape and only tighten it enough to have the o-ring seal (without pinching so much it looses it's shape/ seal!)

As said, the leak you described would not allow air into the pump while it's running. The usual reasons for air in the pump while it's running are:
1) The pump lid gasket not fully sealing
2)A bad threaded or glued connection (including the winterizing plugs on the pump) or faulty valve
3) Not enough water in the pool, allowing the skimmer (s) to suck air (or a stuck skimmer weir, which would starve the skimmer)
4) A broken suction line underground:mad:
5) An obstruction in a suction line causing cavitation

To check anything above ground you can slowly dribble water over any suspect area and watch the bubbles in the pump basket to see if they lessen or go away - if they do, you've found a leak (sometimes there are more than 1) [I use my free hand to cup the water on the bottom of a horizontal pipe to be sure the water will get drawn into a bottom side leak]

You can pressure test any suspect line to determine if it's leaking.

Obstructions are harder to detect - if you have access to an electrician's snake, you could run that through any suspect pipe to see if it freely passes through (on a long run with lot's of elbows, the snake may not pass through anyway:confused: ) Another way would be to run a garden hose from the pump inlet (you can wrap a cloth around the hose to help it seal the pipe) and look for debris being blown through the suction port.

That's the 'basics' of what's probably going on, if you try a few of the things I've mentioned and can't find the solution, let us know (or if I haven't fully explained myself well {it happens more frequently than I'd care to admit:rolleyes: }, I'm here almost every day and I'll give it another shot)

[Poconos]

Yes, Waste is referring to forcing water from the pump inlet back to the skimmer in a reverse direction to try and force any obstruction out the pipe the way it came in. An obstruction would have had to have gotten past the skimmer basket though. Maybe they ran without that? Also, how did they manage to burn up the motor and what kind of pressure are you seeing at the filter inlet? That's what the pressure gauge measures, filter inlet pressure. Can be valuable clues as to what happened. If they somehow managed to run the pump with the return blocked, water in the pump but no flow, they may have heated the water to near boiling in which case regular PVC will soften considerably and air leaks could develope at the pump inlet fitting.
Al

[cajunfla]

Thanks, I will try the reverse direction thing.

They burnt up the motor by running the pump with little or no water somehow. Actually melted the pump basket a bunch to where it had to be replaced too.

The pressure gauge on the filter was at 30psi before I cleaned the green filter. Green from the pool water looking like pond scum. Got that cleared up in a couple of days.

Anyway, the pressure gauge is back down to about 18psi., which appears to be the norm after the solar panels were added.

How do I check the inlet fittings for tight connections?


Yes, Waste is referring to forcing water from the pump inlet back to the skimmer in a reverse direction to try and force any obstruction out the pipe the way it came in. An obstruction would have had to have gotten past the skimmer basket though. Maybe they ran without that? Also, how did they manage to burn up the motor and what kind of pressure are you seeing at the filter inlet? That's what the pressure gauge measures, filter inlet pressure. Can be valuable clues as to what happened. If they somehow managed to run the pump with the return blocked, water in the pump but no flow, they may have heated the water to near boiling in which case regular PVC will soften considerably and air leaks could develope at the pump inlet fitting.
Al

[cajunfla]

OK, no obvious obstruction on the reverse flow with the garden hose, BUT there was a leak coming from the top of the Jandy valve at the inlet to the pump basket.

Could this be sucking air in during normal operation? Water flow into basket during normal operation is so low as to actually see the flow out of the inlet opening. Prior to all this, flow was never seen because the basket was always full.

I hope I am explaining this so anyone can understand what I am trying to get across, because I certainly do appreciate the help on this forum.

[waste]

Please never hesitate to ask a question! - if you don't ask, how are you supposed to find out the answer:)

You are making good progress for 1 day! You now know that the Jandy valve is sucking air (if water 'spurts' out of it under positive pressure, it's most likely drawing air when the pressure is negative [ie, when the pump is on]). The Jandy valve may be cracked or, more probably, one of the o-rings is bad - if an o-ring is bad, the change out is pretty simple (there is also the chance that you have the valve with a lubricating knob and there is something wrong with that). As I said in the other post, you can isolate possible leaks by dribbling water on them and watching for a lessening of the bubbles in the pump.

Given what you've described (the pump being run without enough water in the skimmers), I think that Al is right that the water in the pump cavitated - as a matter of fact, I'm sure it did because your basket got 'slagged' - the inlet and outlet thread-in connections melted and need to be replaced. Not wanting to be the bearer of bad news - check the underside of the pump for drips as well (when the pump is running) - there are some internal seals in the pump that probably:( got damaged too. Don't loose heart! - we can 'walk you through' the fixes if you are even moderately mechanically inclined :)

As I said, you are making great progress! Once you find a leak, you can fix that and see if there is still a problem - it may take a little while, but the pool is functional and little leaks that still need to be addressed are better than leaks that keep you from running the pool

[cajunfla]

The water actually kinda ooozes quickly out of the top of the Jandy, never have seen it squirt. And yes, it does have the lube knob on it. Pump does not have any leaks. It sits on a composite board, so leaks are easy to spot. I will hunt down an O-ring kit for the Jandy today.

Something new yesterday, when adding chlorine, the pool went from crystal clear to clear minty green. Whats up with that?

Thanks again for your help.




Please never hesitate to ask a question! - if you don't ask, how are you supposed to find out the answer:)

You are making good progress for 1 day! You now know that the Jandy valve is sucking air (if water 'spurts' out of it under positive pressure, it's most likely drawing air when the pressure is negative [ie, when the pump is on]). The Jandy valve may be cracked or, more probably, one of the o-rings is bad - if an o-ring is bad, the change out is pretty simple (there is also the chance that you have the valve with a lubricating knob and there is something wrong with that). As I said in the other post, you can isolate possible leaks by dribbling water on them and watching for a lessening of the bubbles in the pump.

Given what you've described (the pump being run without enough water in the skimmers), I think that Al is right that the water in the pump cavitated - as a matter of fact, I'm sure it did because your basket got 'slagged' - the inlet and outlet thread-in connections melted and need to be replaced. Not wanting to be the bearer of bad news - check the underside of the pump for drips as well (when the pump is running) - there are some internal seals in the pump that probably:( got damaged too. Don't loose heart! - we can 'walk you through' the fixes if you are even moderately mechanically inclined :)

As I said, you are making great progress! Once you find a leak, you can fix that and see if there is still a problem - it may take a little while, but the pool is functional and little leaks that still need to be addressed are better than leaks that keep you from running the pool

[JohnT]

Something new yesterday, when adding chlorine, the pool went from crystal clear to clear minty green. Whats up with that?


Any chance that the pool has had a non-chlorine sanitizer used previously? Most people describe the color when chlorine is added to a Baquacil pool as being like Mountain Dew.

[cajunfla]

Only if the renters-from-hell used that stuff, or the pool guy they called to rescue them. I use the BBB method myself.

Replaced the o-rings in the Jandy valve, and it appears all air leaks are gone!!!!!!!! YEE HAW !! Now, lets see if the solar panels are still working and not leaking air or water.

MUCH THANKS to all !!!!!


Any chance that the pool has had a non-chlorine sanitizer used previously? Most people describe the color when chlorine is added to a Baquacil pool as being like Mountain Dew.

[Poconos]

John could be right on the Bacquacrap. Your renters could have been looking for an easy maintenance schedule and taken in by the glossy claims of that junk. Then you get stuck with the undoo.
Al

[cajunfla]

How do I figure out what is actually in the pool, and how do I get rid of it?



John could be right on the Bacquacrap. Your renters could have been looking for an easy maintenance schedule and taken in by the glossy claims of that junk. Then you get stuck with the undoo.
Al

[JohnT]

How do I figure out what is actually in the pool, and how do I get rid of it?

I think I'd take a water sample to a pool store and ask them to test for Baquacil and maybe copper.