Aquapure dead, numbers slightly off and what stabilizer?

[chris_r11]

Hello Pool Forum.

I have not posted recently as things were going fine, but I just realized that my Aquapure 1400 was dead (it stopped telling me about the general fault on the RS6 for some reason) - the pool company is there now fixing it supposedly, but now my chemistry is off and there is some alage growing. I think it is the green stuff.

Can you give me ideas on what needs to be done to get things back in line?

On Sunday, this is what I had (pool is about 18000 gallons, dark Plaster, 1 year old):
FC 2ppm - added 2 gallons chlorine in 2 days. (I am sure it is 0 now based on alage growing)
CC .4
PH 7.1 - after adding my weekly 1/2 gallon acid
CYA less than 30 could barely see the black dot.
calcium hardness, 600ppm (??)
TA 70 PPM
Salt 3200.

So, I need to get my stabilizer back up, I know it was about 50 or so at the beginning of the season - did the kids splash that much out?

I really don't want to pay Leslies $33 for the stabilizer, what is better alternative? How should I add it? (I have only used leslies $$ product so far)

What else do I need to do?

Thanks for any advice.

Chris

[aylad]

Hi Chris,

Sorry to hear about your SWG--hopefully they can get it fixed without too much time lost!

As far as the algae problem goes, you need to run your chlorine up to the 15 ppm range and keep it there until the green goes away and your water goes back to cloudy blue. I would use bleach to do so, although you could use dichlor if you have it on hand. Add it at night, then test 2-3 times daily (if you can) and add more chlorine to get back up to 15 ppm. Once your chlorine holds overnight and your water is back to blue, then you can let your chlorine drift back down to normal. Keep your pump running 24/7 until the cloudy (dead algae) goes away, and you should be back in the pool in no time!
WalMart sells stabilizer, for a LOT less than Leslie's--I've bought it in 2 lb containers labeled "water conditioner" for spas and hot tubs, but I think they sell a 4 lb container as well. It might be called conditioner, balancer, or stabilizer, but look at the active ingredient. If it says cyanuric acid or isocyanuric acid, then it's CYA. YOu can put it in the skimmer and then not backwash your filter for about a week, (it takes that long to dissolve), or some advocate putting it in a sock or old nylon hose and suspending it in the skimmer or in front of a return and letting it dissolve that way.

Janet

[waste]

Chris, how much salt have you had to add this summer? - I tie the salt and cya together, when I add 1 I add the other (only exception is a tri-chlor pool getting a new SWCG) The ratio I've worked out is 1 lb cya/ 100 lbs salt to get to 30- 40 ppm cya with ~ 3000 ppm salt, so far it hasn't failed me to keep the cya at the level I want (one exception - the pool owner was removing the 'packets' of cya I was putting in the pool:rolleyes: and therefore having a constantly low cl reading), if you want the 60 - 80 ppm cya reading, simply add 1 lb cya for every 50 lbs salt. Neither of them will evaporate, so where the salt goes so does the cya -- they only leave by emptying the pool or splashout - if your unit tells you the salt level and you need too add more salt, add the appropriate amount of cya:)

Unfortunately, cya doesn't have a comparable product in the grocery store:( , it's a pool specialty product. You may still be able to find some at Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Lowe's or similar - it may even be on sale if they still have it this late in the season.

I hope that this at least partially answers your question, and once you get this fixed you have the same 'lack of problems' that you've enjoyed most of the season!

[chris_r11]

Thanks Janet,

I wish there was a WalMart near me - only Home Depot, Target and things like that. Since I only really have tomorrow to deal with this, I may have to suck it up and go to Leslies :mad: I will see if they have anything other than the $30 a gallon stuff.

Do my other numbers seem far out of line? (other than my lack of Chlorine?)

The Pool Co, did not call back after they got there and he said he had another board for it with him, so I am going to assume, the chlorinator is working again - so, (dumb question) I have to shock to get rid of the algae?

Thanks, Chris

[chris_r11]

Waste,
I really have not added any salt this year so I will keep your recommendation in my mind. It seems to have been pretty stable so far. I will probably swing by Home Depot and see if they have any stabilizer. Worth a shot as 4lbs of stabilizer at Leslies is listed as $20.

Chris

[waterbear]

One thing jumps out at me that might explain your problem. You have a calcium hardness of 600 ppm. Have you ever inspected your cell for scaling or cleaned the cell? With the calcium that high I would inspect and possibly clean the cell every few months to avoid problems. Also, keep your salt level at the HIGH end of the recommended range. It will help extend the life of your cell. Ditto for the CYA. It's a good idea to check both montly.

Also, if you keep your pH at 7.6 and when it climbs to 7.8 lower it back to 7.6 but not lower you will actually minimize your acid usage.

[aylad]

Thanks Janet,

I wish there was a WalMart near me - only Home Depot, Target and things like that. Since I only really have tomorrow to deal with this, I may have to suck it up and go to Leslies :mad: I will see if they have anything other than the $30 a gallon stuff.

Do my other numbers seem far out of line? (other than my lack of Chlorine?)

The Pool Co, did not call back after they got there and he said he had another board for it with him, so I am going to assume, the chlorinator is working again - so, (dumb question) I have to shock to get rid of the algae?

Thanks, Chris

Chris,

The Home Depot and Lowe's in my area also sell stabilizer--it's labeled the same way as the WalMart stuff, but it's the same thing--just check the ingredient label.

Even if you do get the SWG back working again, you're still going to need to shock to eliminate the algae. I still recommend that you do it with bleach. I know most SWGs have a "superchlorinate" setting, but to maintain the level of chlorine that you're going to need, you're going to substantially reduce your cell life. It'll be easier on the SWG if you just run it at its normal setting and use bleach to do the shocking.

Other than your chlorine and CYA levels being off, as waterbear mentioned I would check your cell to make sure you don't have scaling going on--CH of 600 is pretty high. Is it that high in your fill water?

Janet

[chris_r11]

Thanks for the suggestions.

I actually got away from leslies for not too much with the coupon they sent out and I bought some stabilizer at home depot. - $17 for 5#. Leslies was 20 for 4#. The also had a bag of shock for $4, so, hopefully I am back on track.

The one thing I learned (that will stick with me) is that since I have an infloor system, my skimmer does not go to my filter :eek: so all the CYA I put in just blew back into the pool. The infloor blew it around and disolved it pretty quickly (and I brushed it around as well so it would not bleach the plaster).

Wondering if you can explain to me why adding acid at 7.6 will use less. I am just trying to understand that. I know my habits are not the best. I sort of have it down to adding a half gallon once per week. Lazyness set it, I guess.

Again, thanks for all the advice.

Chris

[waterbear]

The one thing I learned (that will stick with me) is that since I have an infloor system, my skimmer does not go to my filter :eek: so all the CYA I put in just blew back into the pool. The infloor blew it around and disolved it pretty quickly (and I brushed it around as well so it would not bleach the plaster).

CYA will not bleach plaster.

Wondering if you can explain to me why adding acid at 7.6 will use less. I am just trying to understand that.

Chris

If you keep your TA on the low end, which yours is at 70 ppm (and is probably ideal for a SWG system) then by keeping the pH at 7.6 and not lower will result in less outgassing of carbon dioxide. It's the outgassing of CO2 that causes pH rise in a salt system (or any pool, for that matter). This is why we can raise pH by just aeration of the water and is why we use aeration as part of the process in lowering TA. If you have less outgassing of CO2 you will have less of a pH rise or a slower pH rise and therefore need less or less freqent acid additions to maintain the pH at 7.6. I won't go into the actual chemistry here but if you are interested check out this thread (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=7570).
I have found that adding acid when the pH hits 7.8 and then lowering it to 7.6 is a workable plan. Adding borates to the water in a 30-50 ppm concentration can further help stabilize pH and lower acid consumption with a SWG.

[chris_r11]

Evan,

Thanks for the advice. One more question though. I thought I did not want to put borates into my pool if I was using chlorine. Am I confusing that with something else?

I do get tired of adding acid all the time to the pool so anything I can do to keep it down would be great.

Chris

[chris_r11]

Oh yeah, I know I have a high calcium hardness, but the person that changed the board in the aquapure said he took a look at the cell and it actually did not have much scaling, but it is something that I will keep an eye on.

Chris

[waterbear]

One more question though. I thought I did not want to put borates into my pool if I was using chlorine. Am I confusing that with something else?


Chris
Yes, you are probably confusing borates with either bromine or biguanide, bromine will convert a chlorine pool into a bromine pool and biguanide is NOT compatible with either chlorine or bromine. Borates are an excellent addition, IMHO. You can spend the money on a commercial borate product such as Proteam Supreme or Bioguard Optimizer or you can use 20 mule team borax. Check out this thread (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=4712) and this thread (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=5419).

[chris_r11]

OK, well that brings up another question :)

So, if I have an 18k gallon pool, I would need about 18 boxes of 20 mule team and about 5 gallons of acid? I know not to put them in at the same time, but just trying to figure out the numbers.

Do borates disappear from the water?

is the 20 mule team the best way to put them in?

Since I can't do it with my skimmer, should I put them in a mesh bag and put that in the skimmer?

Thanks,

Chris

[waterbear]

60 oz 20 mule team (sodium tetraborate decahydrate) will raise 1000 gallons to 50 ppm borates so for an 18K pool you will need 1080 oz. Since each box contains 76 oz this is 14 boxes (14.2 boxes to be more exact but its a pool, not rocket science. 14 boxes is fine!)

You will need between 4 to 4 1/2 gallons of muriatic acid to neutralize the pH rise from the borax.

To dose your pool add 2 gallons of acid and 7 boxes of borax driectly to the pool and brush well to mix. Add 2 more gallons of acid and the rest of the borax and brush. Wait 489 hours and then readjust the pH down to 7.6 if it is higher than that. It will probably take between a pint to a half gallon more of acid to achieve this if you pH is high at this point. For your size pool I would add a quart of acid at a time, wait about 30 minutes, test the pH and repeat this until the pH hits 7.6 or goes a bit below it, whichever comes first. (if it goes below to around 7.4 don't worry, it will rise again)

Borates are lost by spashout, backwashing etc. the same as salt or CYA. They are easily tested with the Lamotte or AquaChek borate test strips (the Lamotte are a bit easier to read)

If you want to spend the money there is an eaiser way. You can buy Proteam Supreme Plus (a mixture of sodium tetraborate pentahydrate and boric acid) which is pH neutral. You would just add 60 lbs of it to the pool to achive the 50 ppm borates and will not have to worry about neutralizing the pH with acid. You should still check the pH after 48 hours and lower it to 7.6 if it is higher than that.

Downside is that this way is CONSIDERABLY more expensive (Where I work we sell the 10 lb Supreme Plus for $40! The larger sizes are a bit less per pound but still pricy compared to 20 mule team and muriatic acid!)

Whichever method you pick you should check your borate levels montly (just like your salt, CYA and Calcium) and when they drop to about 30 ppm bump them up to 50 ppm again.