Re: FAQ: Common Spring Startup Errors

[vanhout]

I believe my pool has the exact condition you're describing in #1. I had 100+ CYA at the close of last year and opened last week to CYA 0.

I've put more than 30 gallons of 6% bleach into the pool in the last 6 days. In the first few days the pool would use up more than 10 ppm Cl per day.

I have run the FC to more than 20 ppm, and never dropped below 10 ppm. I also added about 4 lbs of CYA. Throughout, I've had .5 ppm of CC which I can't get rid of. The pool water is no longer green, but is very cloudy and continues to drop quite a bit of "dirt" on the floor each day.

Right now I'm running:

FC 12
CC .5
PH 7.2
CYA 50
Pool size 36,000 gallons

I note in PoolDoc's post that I should run the pH up to 7.5. I added about a pound of Borax to increase the pH (I'm not sure how much to add - doesn't look like BleachCalc does that one).

I'm not sure why I should raise the pH. I thought that chlorine was more effective at lower pH values. Any thoughts?

I'm not sure where to go with this from here. Should I just keep dumping in more chlorine until it gets clear? Should I maintain FC higher than 10 ppm? Should I go for a super whammy shock treatment - I have a book "The Pool Maintenance Manual" by Terry Tamminen that suggests a 50 ppm dose to shock. Would my vinyl liner be in jeopardy with something like that?

Greatly appreciate any advice or comments that anyone can provide and hopefully I can one day repay the favor.

[Watermom]

Vanhout -
I moved your post out of Ben's FAQ on common spring startup problems. I think that may be one reason you haven't gotten any responses. Hopefully, you'll start to get more views now.

Update with current water testing results including alk and calcium hardness. You didn't give those two last time. They might play into your cloudy water problem. Also, tell us if you have put anything into the pool other than bleach.

Watermom

[vanhout]

Thanks for the reply.

I've now put more than 60 gallons of Clorox into my 36,000 gallon pool in the last 10 days. The pool has gone from mildly green to very cloudy. It's only gotten slightly less cloudy in the last day or two. I haven't had the FC less than 10 in the whole 10 day period, and I've had it as high as 30. It eats 8 - 10 ppm a night. The sand filter's been running 24/7.

I just added some chlorine earlier tonite, so my FC is up around 22.

I tested the TA and got 150, but it turned clear, not red, so I don't know if it's accurate or not, maybe the FC being high impacts it.

My ph is running about 7.0, again, I don't know if the high chlorine impacts that.

I'll retest everything tomorrow when the FC comes down. It'll be 10 by tomorrow afternoon.

I'm questioning myself as to whether I should keep putting so much chlorine in. What do you think?

[Watermom]

How about an update on water testing results and how your water looks. Any improvement?

Watermom

[vanhout]

Thanks.

Still cloudy.

My water results now are:

FC 11
CC .5
PH 7.2
TA 140
CH 350 ? sample never turned blue, went clear at about 350
CYA 50
VOL 36,000 gal

I added another 2.5 lbs of Borax a couple of hours ago, but it didn't really move the needle on PH. I'll check it again in the morning and if it's still down I'll add another couple of pounds, trying to get to the 7.5 recommended in the sticky for the zero CYA startup condition.

It's almost dark, I'm not going to add any chlorine and see what it drops to by morning.

Any thoughts? :cool:

[MarkC]

When you said this "but it didn't really move the needle on PH " Are you using a pH meter to test your pH. If you are MOST inexpensive pH meters are notoriously inaccurate so I would rely on a drops based test method.

[Watermom]

I hope it is getting better today. Since you are still getting a CC reading, I would continue to maintain shock levels with your chlorine. If you had a lot of algae, the cloudiness may just be the sand filter taking awhile to filter out the dead algae. Some people with sand filters have had some luck with adding a little DE to their sand filter to help clear it. Poconos does that. I'll alert him to this thread and see if he thinks that might be something that could help you. Hang in there. It will clear up. Post with any changes today.

Watermom

[vanhout]

Thanks for the replies.

On the "move the needle" comment - no, I'm not using a meter, just meant it as the expression. I added about 1.5 pounds of Borax this morning and I'm now at 7.5 pH. I was trying to get it up to 7.5 or greater, per Ben's sticky on this subject, but I'm not sure why, because I thought Chlorine was more effective at lower pH.

Last night I lost about 2.5 ppm of FC overnite. Water is still cloudy. I put in another 1.44 gal 6% bottle this morning, and I guess I'll just keep maintaining my Cl above 10 ppm. I don't know what else to do.

I'm up to 66 gallons of 6% Cl used since I opened the pool 13 days ago. I've bought so much Chlorine at Costco in the last 2 weeks that I'm worried Homeland Security might start an investigation. ;)

Any other thoughts?

[Poconos]

You can try adding DE like Watermom suggested. Here's the link to the thread where I mentioned this and how to do it.
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=465&highlight=%28ajs-1%29

Al

[vanhout]

You can try adding DE like Watermom suggested. Here's the link to the thread where I mentioned this and how to do it.
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=465&highlight=%28ajs-1%29

Al

I'm going to give this a try.

[CarlD]

Tough problem!

Some basic questions of things I did NOT see:
Are you...
1) running your filter 24/7?
2) vacuuming to waste everyday?
3) brushing the bottom and walls everyday?

Your TA and CH together shouldn't be a problem in a vinyl pool--at least not enough to gen clouding.

So it's got to be algae.

DE in the sand filter will increase the filtering by decreasing the size of particles that get trapped. A 10lb box is usually about $8. You add about a cup. The object is to raise the pump pressure 5lbs, but no more. I suspect there's either a problem with your filter or your pump may be too big for it. What's the size on these two? Do you know the GPM the pump produces and the filter's max GPM?

You can also use skimmer socks--they increase filtration at the skimmer--but you'll have to clean it a couple of times a day. They aren't too expensive. There's some sort of bag you can attach to the return that "polishes" the water by micro-filtering it--it's expensive--about $70--but I don't remember its name. It is supposed to work.

Meanwhile, you need to get your FC up 20ppm. Since you are using SO much chlorine, it may make sense to find a local pool store that sells the 12% 5 gallon drums--each is like 10 gallons of 6%. Occasionally some stores will even get 26%--a five gallon drum is like 25 gallons of 5.25%. But it's hard to find. You also want a store that turns over its stock of these "carboys" every week--higher concentrations break down into lower concentrations, and the higher they are, the faster they break down.

Still, you can add ALOT of chlorine at once, and you don't have 20 or 30 bottles to recycle--the carboys are re-fillable. It's convenient and easier, but not always cheaper.

With 36,000 gallons, it should take 5 gallons of 6% to raise your pool 8 1/3ppm. If it's taking more, you are fighting something. But if it's not, and it's holding the FC, then you have a filtering problem.

Don't dose your pool up to 50ppm--that's only a strategy for a concrete pool. "Taming the Pool Monster" was, for me, a complete waste of money--this site has worked far better over the years.

Stick to the strategy. Ben (PoolDoc) may give you an alternate plan that's a "Plan B". If Ben (and only Ben) does so, please follow it instead--he'll have seen something unusual that requires something drastic. Until then, keep the FC up, run the filter 24/7, add DE, vacuum and brush daily.

Good luck!

[vanhout]

Tough problem!

Some basic questions of things I did NOT see:
Are you...
1) running your filter 24/7?
2) vacuuming to waste everyday?
3) brushing the bottom and walls everyday?

Your TA and CH together shouldn't be a problem in a vinyl pool--at least not enough to gen clouding.

So it's got to be algae.

DE in the sand filter will increase the filtering by decreasing the size of particles that get trapped. A 10lb box is usually about $8. You add about a cup. The object is to raise the pump pressure 5lbs, but no more. I suspect there's either a problem with your filter or your pump may be too big for it. What's the size on these two? Do you know the GPM the pump produces and the filter's max GPM?

You can also use skimmer socks--they increase filtration at the skimmer--but you'll have to clean it a couple of times a day. They aren't too expensive. There's some sort of bag you can attach to the return that "polishes" the water by micro-filtering it--it's expensive--about $70--but I don't remember its name. It is supposed to work.

Meanwhile, you need to get your FC up 20ppm. Since you are using SO much chlorine, it may make sense to find a local pool store that sells the 12% 5 gallon drums--each is like 10 gallons of 6%. Occasionally some stores will even get 26%--a five gallon drum is like 25 gallons of 5.25%. But it's hard to find. You also want a store that turns over its stock of these "carboys" every week--higher concentrations break down into lower concentrations, and the higher they are, the faster they break down.

Still, you can add ALOT of chlorine at once, and you don't have 20 or 30 bottles to recycle--the carboys are re-fillable. It's convenient and easier, but not always cheaper.

With 36,000 gallons, it should take 5 gallons of 6% to raise your pool 8 1/3ppm. If it's taking more, you are fighting something. But if it's not, and it's holding the FC, then you have a filtering problem.

Don't dose your pool up to 50ppm--that's only a strategy for a concrete pool. "Taming the Pool Monster" was, for me, a complete waste of money--this site has worked far better over the years.

Stick to the strategy. Ben (PoolDoc) may give you an alternate plan that's a "Plan B". If Ben (and only Ben) does so, please follow it instead--he'll have seen something unusual that requires something drastic. Until then, keep the FC up, run the filter 24/7, add DE, vacuum and brush daily.

Good luck!

Thanks a lot for the in depth reply. Here's the answers to the questions you posed.

- I am running 24/7, for the last 2+ weeks I've been open, except for 6 hours yesterday I turned it off to see if anything settled out

- I vacuumed to waste when I had a substantial quantity of stuff to pick up, now I get a light amount of "dirt" every day or two, so I haven't been going directly to waste, but typically backwash after vacuuming

- I have brushed occasionally, not every day. I don't have any visible algae - nothing green, so it hadn't occured to me

- My hardware is a Jacuzzi 350 filter, 83 gph, and a 1.5 HP motor on the pump, which is also a Jacuzzi. The tag on the pump is bleached out, I can't read it, so I don't know what its flow rate is. I put new sand in the filter about 2 years ago.

I've got some DE, I'm going to try that next. I'm still losing 2-3 ppm overnite, and the pool is still cloudy. Not super cloudy, but not as good as it normally is. I've been maintaining at least 10 ppm, I moved it up to 17 ppm last night and I'm going to maintain at 15 ppm for a while.

Some questions:

- You recommended adding DE for a 5 psi increase, Poconos recommended a 1 psi increase. Thoughts?

- So you think I should just keep maintaining a high Cl level? Would another super shock level be in order - like 20 or 25 ppm? I'm at 50 CYA, so according to the chart, I'm at shock level already at 15 ppm.


I'd love to be able to get bulk Cl somewhere, my pool store only carries the gallon containers of 12%, and they don't even have those in stock until the swimming season starts. Those carboys would be great if I could get them.

Thanks again to everyone for the great tips, I hope I can get this cleared up soon.

[CarlD]

Go with Poconos...Al knows more about it than I do.

For some reason I thought your CYA was 60--hence the higher shock.

My concern with the pump and filter is if the pump's flow rate is higher than the filter's, it won't filter correctly

[Poconos]

Do the 1 psi rise in pressure. Any more and I suspect you'll just be wasting DE. If you are indeed vacuuming small stuff you'll see the pressure rise quickly even to the fully blocked point so keep an eye on the pressure.
Al

[vanhout]

Pool got noticeably clearer today. Still not where I want it, but notably better. I'm pretty encouraged.

I lost a good 3-4 ppm of FC again over the last day. I'm going to keep the FC up at 15 for another couple of days.

I think that DE was a really good tip. So, everytime I backwash I put in more DE?

Thanks for the tips, this is as good as the pool has been yet this year.

[Watermom]

Yes - until you get your pool really clear and then you don't have to, although you still can if you want. I have a sand filter and I don't, but some people with sand filters routinely do add DE. It is a matter of preference. Glad it is looking better. I'm glad the DE tip seems to be working for you. Hopefully it won't be too much longer until you have sparkling clear water.

[jmcst25]

Within Ben's 'sticky' he recommends "drain and refill .... If you don't drain, plan to consume a LOT of chlorine, getting rid of the ammonia and urea....."

If you had high CYA levels (> 70 ppm) last fall, you may consume as much as 200 ppm of chlorine in the clean up process. (~ 80 gallons of household bleach, for a 20,000 gallon pool!) "

Draining / refilling might be cheaper than chemicals depending on where you live. ( just be safe in draining).

Good luck.

[vanhout]

The 200 ppm estimate might not turn out to be too far from correct. I've used over 70 gallons of 6% chlorine, which in my pool is 116 ppm. That's in 16 days.

If it happens ever again I think I would partially drain and refill. I'm on a well, and it would take a long time to fill 8 or 10k gallons off the softener.

[vanhout]

Still fighting. Water is still cloudy. Not bad, but not perfect. It ate 6 ppm of CL in 24 hours with CYA of 50, it wasn't that sunny.

[Watermom]

Keep hitting it with bleach.

[vanhout]

Pool is now clear, but it's still eating a lot of chlorine. I had it to 14 ppm yesterday evening, this evening it was 5ppm.

Think I should just keep feeding it chlorine?

[Watermom]

Yes. With a cya of 50, you shouldn't be losing chlorine so fast unless you are possible still fighting something in the water. Keep up the bleach for a bit longer.