Wanted: Mustard algae or suspected mustard algae [Archive]

gonefishin

08-18-2007, 01:23 PM

Wanted dead or alive: Yellow "mustard" Algae

I'd like to find this no good scoundrel and put him to the test. Is he what he's made of or not. I'd like to find out! :twisted: lol

Hi all...

If you've got mustard algae or what you believe to be mustard algae I'd love to get a sample and look at it under a microscope. I know a few people have had recurring problems in previous years and would appreciate it if he or anyone else who comes across this stuff could send me a sample.

Is there anyone who has also had a recurring problem with mustard algae?

Also any pictures from above the water is appreciated too. But close-ups from a skimmer sock, the inside of a filter, squeeze bottle sample...anything would be great!

Any descriptions of how your mustard algae behaved?

Thanks,
dan

hoffmans

08-18-2007, 02:42 PM

Dan,
I would love to send you some.
I have what everyone is talking about.
I will take a child's medicine syringe and see if I can get some.
I have behavioral patterns noted in this link. Please read this link & tell me if you want what I have.
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?p=52285#post52285
Also in that link is a link to a thread at TFpools wherein ALOT of people talk of their experiences. I will see if i can get some pictures and post them on your thread here.
Also, I am begining to suspect Pollen. I get Pollen/Allergy alerts sent to my email everyday. The current and recent active pollens have been Ragweed, Chenopods and Nettle these have been active for the past month or more.
That is something to consider. Maybe ChemGeek knows what they look like under a microscope. Infact, my oldest son is a little science geek, I am pretty sure his scope goes to 400x. If I can get some of the stuff from my pool maybe I should look at it.

Sure would be nice to get to the bottom of this mystery.

~Hoffmans

chem geek

08-18-2007, 03:03 PM

gonefishin

08-19-2007, 10:18 PM

Thanks for the additional info chemgeek. Hopefully there will be involvement.

Hoffmans...I can't wait to hear back from you. Either respond in this thread or by private message. Thanks!

dan

mikemedic

08-20-2007, 10:33 PM

I have too been fighting what I think is Mustard Algae. My pool water is very clear but in areas i am getting streaks of yellow and sometime a cloudy film on the bottom. It is not slimy but keeps reoccurring and doesn't affect the water clarity. I jacked my FC up to 20-22 ppm as my cya is 70. The chlorine level is holding over night and was before. I think this is mustard algae or could it be pollen, anyways i am on my 2 day of keeping th FC above 20. I am going to do it for a few more days due to it being crappy rainy here in West Virginia.

I wish I would have taken some pics. If the crap comes back I will take some pics and post

Mike....GO MOUNTAINEERS!

hoffmans

08-21-2007, 11:36 PM

GoneFishin,
Ask and you shall recieve.
I got the samples by using a child's medicine syringe. Googles made for clear viewing under water. It is difficult to retreive this stuff. It vanishes easily and puffs up and clouds away into an invisible powder when disturbed. But turn your back & it will return.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i201/hoffmans8ormore/watzat6.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i201/hoffmans8ormore/watzat5.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i201/hoffmans8ormore/watzat1.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i201/hoffmans8ormore/watzat2.jpg

[IMG]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i201/hoffmans8ormore/brownwhat1.jpg

Sorry the pictures are not that great. It was windy and there was alot of ripples on the water.
If you want more pics I will try to get some that are more clear.
Just let me know.

My symptoms are the same as Mikemedic & everyone elses'.Did you read that long thread @ TFpool?

I would be happy to share the wealth of our mysterious brown pool potion.

My email is hoffmans@oct.net
I can bottle it and mail it if you like.
~Amber Hoffman

Tredge

08-22-2007, 12:40 PM

Borax solved this problem for me....looks to be gone for good.

All summer and not a spec of it since I added Borax. Had a good amount early spring before I added it tho!

First summer algae free for me.

chem geek

08-22-2007, 12:56 PM

There was also a recent report in this post (http://x.havuz.org/viewtopic.php?p=12635#12635) on another forum where using PolyQuat 60 appears to keep away yellow/mustard algae as well, though it's a bit too early to know for sure. So use of an alagecide, either 30-50 ppm Borates (by the way, what is your Borate level?) or weekly PolyQuat 60 combined with chlorine keeps away yellow/mustard algae without needing the higher chlorine levels.

We know from other users that keeping the Free Chlorine (FC) level at a minimum of 15% of the CYA level will keep away yellow/mustard algae without any need for an additional algaecide, but it appears to be a rather hard limit and a high FC level that some people don't want to deal with (it's about double the "minimum" FC of 7.5% of the CYA level for green algae that roughly corresponding to Ben's "Min" column). Others have shocked their pools (and equipment -- poles, etc.) at FC levels of 60% of the CYA level and eliminated the algae, but it wasn't easy. So there are various options for people.

Richard

mikemedic

08-22-2007, 09:52 PM

good to know, i jacked my FC to about 20 for 4 days. Seems on now, but this happened before. If my CYA is 70 I would need to leave my FC at 10.5?
I may try this, having a rainy humid august, then i may back off in sept.

How do I measure borates? I have a taylor test kit K2006 I believe, and if I add borax will this not jack up my PH?

GIve me some ideas

aylad

08-22-2007, 10:06 PM

How do I measure borates? I have a taylor test kit K2006 I believe, and if I add borax will this not jack up my PH?

You have to buy the borate strips separately...Accucheck has some out, and I believe LaMotte might have some, too. If you add the borax, it will jack up the pH...you'll have to counter the pH rise by adding muriatic acid so that your pH stays within normal ranges, just the borates increase.

Janet

chem geek

08-22-2007, 10:24 PM

good to know, i jacked my FC to about 20 for 4 days. Seems on now, but this happened before. If my CYA is 70 I would need to leave my FC at 10.5?
Yes. If you don't use an algaecide or completely get rid of the algae via intensive shocking (42 ppm after first lowering the pH to 7.1, but that seems almost insane, doesn't it?), you'd need to keep a minimum of 10.5 ppm FC with your 70 ppm CYA to keep away the yellow/mustard algae. At least that's the experience of users so far. Though technically shocking at 42 ppm FC at 70 ppm CYA is equivalent in disinfecting chlorine to 1.6 ppm FC with no CYA (which is lower than most indoor pools), the high numbers scare me, even though I know the chemistry behind them.

gonefishin

08-22-2007, 10:27 PM

I'd still like any samples that people can get me. If you have a deposit suck it up in a squeeze bottle and send it to me. I'll take a look at it under the microscope and see what we can tell.

dan

hoffmans

08-22-2007, 11:34 PM

Dan,
Sure thing. Brown crud on the way shortly. Will probably mail it out on Friday.
Got your email. Thanks
:)
~Hoffmans

gonefishin

08-22-2007, 11:47 PM

Dan,
Sure thing. Brown crud on the way shortly. Will probably mail it out on Friday.
Got your email. Thanks
:)
~Hoffmans

LoL!

brown crud...:D

dan

hoffmans

08-23-2007, 12:19 AM

Did I miss something on this whole Borates issue?
I don't know squat about Borates. Why do I want Borates?
Is there something beneficial about having borates in my pool?
:confused:

hmmmm.......

~Hoffmans

chem geek

08-23-2007, 03:04 AM

See this thread (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=4712) for more on using Borates in the pool -- not for making the pH rise, but for use as an algaecide. 30-50 ppm Borates is the recommended amount for that purpose and to get to that amount you add acid along with the 20 Mule Team Borax.

The only apparent downside is that it is "on the edge" for the level of first symptoms for toxicity in animals such as dogs, if they drink a lot of pool water (i.e. every day).

Richard

Tredge

08-23-2007, 03:43 PM

Just a funny side-note:

It took over 30 boxes of 20 Mule Team to get my pool to 50ppm.....I bought out Super-Walmart twice. When I made it to the counter (Shopping cart was Heavy!) the checkout lady gave me a funny look.

I asked "My Wife sent me, Does Borax work on Blood Stains?"
Her Eyes widened a bit and before she got too nervous I said...."Just kidding, I have a Pool."
OH! she said with relief.

itstoohot

08-23-2007, 07:50 PM

Tredge,

How big is your pool? The BleachCalc says that each 76 oz box adds 23.1 tetraborates to a 10,000 gallon pool. You would need about 2.25 boxes to get there. I have a 30,000 gallon pool, so I would expect to need 6.75 boxes (of course, I realize you can't buy .75 boxes, so let's call it 7).

Just curious to see if my math is right.

David

chem geek

08-23-2007, 09:13 PM

BleachCalc has a known bug when it comes to Borates. 1 box, which is 76 ounces weight, of 20 Mule Team Borax raises the Borates level by 6.45 ppm in 10,000 gallons. You can use The Pool Calculator (http://www.poolcalculator.com/) for a more accurate calculation. For your 30,000 gallon pool you would need 23-1/4 boxes to get to 50 ppm.

The Borates measurement is technically in "ppm Boron" which is probably why BleachCalc is incorrect as it is using a different molecular weight.

Tredge

08-24-2007, 09:14 AM

Waterbear helped me with the calculations.

I was surprised at the amount I needed too (40,000 Gallon Pool) but the number of boxes given was spot on.

gonefishin

08-25-2007, 10:52 PM

Pollen vs. algae is VERY easy to distinguish under a microscope. This link (http://pollen.usda.gov/Light_Micrographs/LMicro.htm) shows light microscope pictures of a variety of pollens. Notice that they all have a somewhat solid appearance, are usually round (though not always), sometimes have spikes. This site (http://www.algaterra.org/ATDB/Pictures/PictureMain.cfm) has lots of pictures of algae which you can see usually have oblong (more rectangular) cell shapes, are more translucent, often form clusters or filaments, etc.

Common mustard algae is Pleurochloris pyrenoidosa. Common green algae is Oocystis sp. Common black algae is Phormidium minnesotense. You can also search on the web for more pictures of these particular algae.

Richard

Doing some searching on Pleurochloris pyrenoidosa I found this article this article (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=239239&pageindex=1#page) on this yellow algae. I couldn't attach a copy of the common mustard algae picture from that article, I'll post the picture over at TFP.

Also...anything in particular to prepare the samples on the slides?

thanks,
dan

chem geek

08-26-2007, 01:09 AM

The PDF file which shows the photo better than the link you gave (at least for me) is here (http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/52/6/1391.pdf). This looks like a scanning electron micrograph so isn't in color and doesn't show the translucent nature you would see with a regular microscope. At least you can see that the cells are a slightly oblong spherical shape.

hoffmans

08-26-2007, 07:29 PM

mikemedic

08-26-2007, 10:06 PM

Just wanted update all on my mustard algae.

I have kept my FC above 11. I did add polyquat several weeks ago but it seems the crap came back or suspected M algae came back. So i have kept FC above 11. Usually about 14 ish. Water has looked great! No residue on the bottom etc. I think I will keep my FC until mid sept.

I think I kicked it's Butt !

chem geek

08-27-2007, 01:18 PM

Congratulations on winning your battle!

So it does seem that the rule of maintaining a minimum FC of 15% of the CYA level (so 10.5 ppm FC or around 11 ppm FC at your 70 ppm CYA) does seem to work for yellow/mustard algae. This is double the rough minimum FC of 7.5% of the CYA level for green algae (corresponding to the "Min" column in Ben's chart).

Some other users had success using PolyQuat 60, but had to maintain a weekly maintenance dose of it -- not a one-time treatment. It apparently helps slow-down growth, but does not kill all the algae, and may also need at least some chlorine level as well. Did you do a one-time dose or did you do an initial dose and then weekly maintenance doses thereafter? I'd like to get more data on this PolyQuat use (and Borates as well as this has also helped some, but not all, pool owners against yellow/mustard algae).

Richard

gonefishin

08-29-2007, 09:14 PM

GoneFishin,
*Suspects* have been bound and gagged, packaged and shipped via the USPS this past Friday. They are officially handed over to your protection. Open at your own risk.........

(check your mail Monday & Tuesday)
;)

~Hoffmans

Thanks...I'm still waiting on some slides to come in. But I've got them settling in in some glass jars :)

Thanks...I'll certainly be getting back to you.

dan

hoffmans

08-29-2007, 10:15 PM

Do you just need plain glass slides or something special?

gonefishin

08-29-2007, 11:44 PM

I ordered some regular plain slides and 10 concave slides as well. In the mean time I was going to see if I can get anything to grow.

dan

mikemedic

08-30-2007, 08:40 PM

I added 32 ounces about a month ago and no more. I don't use weekly doses of polyquat but may start. My FC is now at 12 and I am starting to see the crap again. I brushed very well tonight and added 3 qts of bleach. When I think I got the stuff whipped it or something comes back. Can't figure it out. I may take some pics over the weekend and post. maybe it just dirt?
Mike