Algae is driving me nuts

[shadowman]

I have been battling algae since I uncovered the pool in May. Twice I have shocked, brushed, vacuumed, and sweated my way to crystal clear water. But every afternoon I would have yellowish brown deposits on the bottom. After the first attempt I put my solar blanket on and within a week had green stuff on the sides. I started over with shocking, etc. and now I am back to clear water but the yucky deposits are there every day. Todays numbers:

FC = 6
TC = 6
CC = 0
PH = 7.2
TA = 90
CYA = 80

I have been using trichlor pucks for the past three summers with BBB but I shut off my injector this year and went to total BBB. If this is mustard algae, I know shocking is the only way to go but with my CYA so high, I am afraid to damage my liner with too much chlorine. I have been vacuuming to waste every day and refilling but the CYA is going down very slow. I now have a Taylor K-2006C so at least I can measure it. Is the yellow-brown stuff dead? Why is it there every day? Where to from here?

[mbar]

You will never get rid of the algae until you take your chlorine up to the shock levels in the "best guess chart" and keep them there until the chlorine holds overnight. You will have to check the chlorine 3x a day and take it back to shock levels. You will not damage your liner at these levels that are compatable with your cya. The high cya combines with the chlorine and the chlorine is not as effective as it is when the cya is low. Here is the chart. The most important thing is to keep the chlorine consistant. Try not to let it drop during the day, and give it a dose late at night before you go to bed. Keep the pump running 24/7, and brush the pool everyday. Here is the chart:

Use the info in this chart to help you figure out what levels of chlorine you need to maintain in your pool based on the amount of CYA (cyanuric acid, also called stabilizer) that you have in your pool. (FC = free chlorine)

Stabilizer . . . . . . Min. FC . . . . Max FC . . . 'Shock' FC
=> 0 ppm . . . . . . . 1 ppm . . . . . 3 ppm . . . . 10 ppm
=> 10 - 20 ppm . . . . 2 ppm . . . . . 5 ppm . . . . 12 ppm
=> 30 - 50 ppm . . . . 3 ppm . . . . . 6 ppm . . . . 15 ppm
=> 60 - 90 ppm . . . . 5 ppm . . . . . 10 ppm . . .. 20 ppm
=> 100 - 200 ppm . . . 8 ppm . . . . . 15 ppm . . .. 25 ppm

As you can see the minimum your chlorine should be is 5ppms - you really need to get it up to 20 and keep it there until it holds overnight.

Feel free to ask any questions you have:)

[shadowman]

OK, I added 2.5 gals of 12.5% chlorine per bleach calculator. Diluted test shows it at 20-25 2hrs later. It is warm and sunny today so I will keep a close eye on it.

[shadowman]

Well, we left on a short vacation, leaving instructions with our son to test the water and report the results. The next day he said the chlorine was down to 10 and there was no brown stuff in the bottom. The chlorine held the next day and the bottom was clean. When we came home today it looked beautiful and I tested and the numbers were:

FC = 5
CC = 0
PH = 7.4
TA = 90
CYA = 80

I just went out to put the solar blanket back on and was shocked to see the yellowish brown stuff back in the shallow end. I am close to ordering several truckloads of dirt to fill this thing in. I guess it's back to shock levels. Any advice?

[mbar]

With your cya 5 is your minimum chlorine level. I would suggest you take it back to shock and keep there for a couple of days. When you hold the chlorine overnight, you can start to let it drift back down, but keep it at the high side of your chlorine level which will be 10ppms for a couple of weeks. This way any algae that is just starting will get killed off - if the chlorine levels are too low, it is easy for it to get a foothold again:( Give a good dose of high chlorine and get rid of it once and for all;)

[chem geek]

If this "yellowish-brown stuff" is yellow/mustard algae, then instead of a minimum FC level of 7.5% of the CYA level (which keeps away green algae), it takes a minimum FC level of 15% of the CYA level to keep this algae away. At a CYA of 80 ppm that's an FC level of 12 ppm to keep this algae away from being reintroduced.

Also, the shock level for yellow/mustard algae is higher than for green algae, but with such a high CYA level it's probably impractical. You should also make sure that the yellowish-brown stuff isn't dirt or pollen though it does sound like algae.

Richard

[Wayne LaBanca]

If this "yellowish-brown stuff" is yellow/mustard algae, then instead of a minimum FC level of 7.5% of the CYA level (which keeps away green algae), it takes a minimum FC level of 15% of the CYA level to keep this algae away. At a CYA of 80 ppm that's an FC level of 12 ppm to keep this algae away from being reintroduced.

Also, the shock level for yellow/mustard algae is higher than for green algae, but with such a high CYA level it's probably impractical. You should also make sure that the yellowish-brown stuff isn't dirt or pollen though it does sound like algae.

Richard

I'm fighting the same battle, vacummed to waste last night and shocked for good measure. Today at noon the brown on the bottom is back but not as bad. Are you saying that the CL level should always be kept at 15% once Mustard Algae has been present?

Wayne

[chem geek]

Unless you completely shock the pool at high levels (60% of the CYA level for 2-3 days) and do not have yellow/mustard algae reintroduced into the pool (via bathing suits, poles/brushes, etc. so wash the former in hot soapy water and put the latter items into the pool while shocking), then the higher maintenance FC isn't necessary. But if for whatever reason the algae is put back into your pool, then yes, keeping the FC at 15% of the CYA level has been the point which keeps it from growing, based on several user reports so far over more than a year.

I'm going to write to Buckman Labs for any info on whether PolyQuat 60 inhibits this algae -- we know it's good for keeping away green algae, but so is maintaining chlorine levels. Though higher levels of chlorine will keep yellow/mustard algae away, perhaps a little assistance from an algaecide would be an option. I'll let y'all know what I find out.

There was one report on another forum of copper sulfate getting rid of this algae, but we all know the side effects and downsides of copper so that's why I want to see if our stalwart PolyQuat 60 will do the trick for those that don't want to maintain the higher FC level or just want extra insurance.

Richard

[chem geek]

I received a response from Buckman Labs and PolyQuat 60 will be effective at inhibiting all the common forms of algae -- green, yellow/mustard, and black. It may take different levels to inhibit different forms, but we are restricted to the dosages recommended on the bottle so basically I say that if you want to try that, you can see if it works to inhibit yellow/mustard algae in your situation. You could even use less than the recommended amounts if you want to see if the threshold is lower, but I suspect that the threshold is only lower for green algae, not for yellow/mustard. By law, you are supposed to stay within the dosages recommended on the container label, but I think there should be no problem trying less -- the main issue is that using more than the recommended amounts doesn't meet the safety standards that were proven to the government during registration while going lower may not meet the effectiveness standard which we are less concerned with IF a lower level is still effective for our needs.

I would also guess that having the chlorine level at the normal target to inhibit green algae may allow for somewhat less PolyQuat 60 to be needed since the combination could be somewhat additive in terms of prevention of algae, but again that's something for you to try. Carl, for example, keeps his FC level at normal targets, but uses a small amount of PolyQuat 60.

Be sure to let us know how it works out if you try the PolyQuat 60.

Richard

[shadowman]

Thanks Richard. I have a quart of PolyQuat 60 but I haven't used any yet. The pool has been sparkling all week since my last shock. We have had very hot weather, over 100, for a few days and the chlorine is staying very stable. I add a little 6% bleach every other day and the numbers are holding nicely even with the blanket off. I will continue to keep you posted. :D

[Sprocket]

Sounds good .

If you want really trouble free summer get that CYA to 30-35 . Mine is that this summer and it's so easy now that anyone could take care of it .

Higher CYA = less cleaning at more "normal" lvls of FC .

[shadowman]

I will have to wait until next summer to get my CYA down to a reasonable level. Inspite of our reputation in Oregon, water is not so cheap and plentiful that I can justify draining 10,000 gals into the street. I will just manage it this year and then drain it more than usual in the fall and let the rain fill it up. Now watch us have a record shortfall :eek: But I definitely have gone all BBB! :cool:

[CarlD]

I'm not surprised that Buckman says it's good for mustard algae--I frequently buy "Mustard Algaecide" because it's just Polyquat.

You CAN safely "overdose" your pool on Polyquat, dumping in a full quart or even two. What will happen is within 48 hours your chlorine level will drop to ZERO! Don't worry, that's normal. Just add bleach/LC to get it back to the shock level and let it come down gradually.

The algae won't start growing when you this and FC plunges--I guess the Polyquat does its job! But you MUST re-shock the pool to kill other stuff. An added bonus is that Poly is also an excellent flocculant so it will cause smaller particles to clump and be captured by the filter.

Remember: The BIGGEST problem with algae is that it consumes your chlorine, leaving you no protection against bacteria and other nasty stuff. Yeah, it's ugly and gross, but that's not the issue. It drains the ability to keep the water sanitary.

It's very important to remember this difference, especially if you are using one of the alternative systems like Nature2 that claims to reduce chlorine usage. THEY ONLY ACT AS ALGAECIDES! You still need chlorine for sanitation.

[chem geek]

Buckman Labs had indicated in an earlier answer to a question that I had (see this post) (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?p=40356) that high doses of PolyQuat and chlorine will cause the chlorine to break down the PolyQuat polymer into smaller pieces, but that these pieces are still effective as an algaecide. Of course, the chlorine gets consumed when this happens, as Carl described, but no biggie, just add more. So generally if you are going to add a lot of chlorine and PolyQuat, such as when you are going to close a pool for the winter, you first shock with chlorine, then when the chlorine drops to more normal levels, you add a bunch of PolyQuat and close up. That was their recommendation for winter closing.

Richard

[CarlD]

... So generally if you are going to add a lot of chlorine and PolyQuat, such as when you are going to close a pool for the winter, you first shock with chlorine, then when the chlorine drops to more normal levels, you add a bunch of PolyQuat and close up. That was their recommendation for winter closing.

Richard

I go the next step, wait 48 hours, and THEN shock the pool back up to 14 or 15 and close. This is the 4th year in a row I've opened to perfectly clear water in the spring. Junk on the bottom of course, but the water is clear and NOT green.

[shadowman]

I dumped a whole quart of Polyquat in and didn't notice much impact on chlorine. We are having a strange summer here with temps over 100 one week and 70's with rain the next. The blanket has been on since Sunday and I've hardly added any chlorine. I hope some day to actually be able to swim in it again and enjoy the clear water!!!

[chem geek]

It's the combination of high PolyQuat concentration AND high chlorine concentration that leads to rapid consumption. If either is at lower concentration, then their mutual reaction and destruction of chlorine is slower -- proportional to the product of the two concentrations.

So unless your chlorine was at a higher shock level, you might not notice the slower reaction.

[CarlD]

...

So unless your chlorine was at a higher shock level, you might not notice the slower reaction.

I did not know that. Good to know!