Borates - Help

[kevinm]

Hi everyone,

Found this forum last year, bought the test kit. Everything has been great.

Today, I took a sample in to the pool store for a comparison (actually, I had to pick up some parts so thought I would have the water tested.)

They tell me that my borates are low (8) and that I need to add about $150 worth of Optimizer Plus. This is the second time they've told me this. Last time I was in it tested at 18. I then came and checked the forum and added three boxes (per bleachcalc) of borax (that was about 3 weeks ago).

Now, I'm confused why the number went down?

I have a 25k gallon plaster pool with a SWG. The water looks great, here are the other numbers:

Sat idx 0.1
TDS 4000
CYA 60
tot chl 3.0
free chl 3.0
ph 7.6
tot alk 110
adj alk 92
tot hardness 240
minerals 2800
borates 8

Any ideas on what I should do?

Thanks in adance,
Kevin

[duraleigh]

Hi, Kevin,

I know just what you should do....go swimming and forget the pool store's advice! :) :)

When you get a chance, have someone alse test for borates or get a home test, if they're made. It is not essential for you to test them at all and the rest of your numbers are close to perfect....nice work:)

[waterbear]

If you want to maintain a 30-50 ppm borate level I would suggest you read the thread "The Great Tetraborate Experiment" in the china shop first.

Second, the borax calculator in Bleachcalc has an error and underdoses on borates big time!

To incease your borates use this formula:
For every 1000 gallons 12 oz of 20 mule team wil increase the borate level 10 ppm and will need 6 oz of muriatic acid to neutalize the pH rise

SO

for your 25k pool to increase it about 40 ppm (since you are starting out at 8 ppm) you need to add 1200 oz which is 75 lbs which is approx 15 3/4 boxes of 20 mule team borax. You will also need 600 oz of muriatic acid or about 4 2/3 gallons to neutralize the pH rise.

Put in about 2 gallons of acid then about half the borax. Brush until dissolved. Put in two more gallons of acid and the rest of the borax and brush. Run your pump for 45 hours, test pH and add acid to adjust to 7.6 (You will need approx 2/3 gallon more, I would add about 1/4 gallon, wait about 30 minutes, test pH then add it by the quart, wait 30 minutes and test pH until you reach 7.6)

I can think of two reasons why your borate levels might be lower than the last time you tested them. First, do you have a sand or DE filter that you backwash? If you do that would be why your levels are lower, they were lost to backwashing.
Second reason is testing error, the borate titration test is one that is prone to slight errors and if they are using strips and a reader that is even more inaccurate. Good news is borate levels don't have to be very precise, just in the ballpark so raising your borates about 40 ppm should work out fine! When they drop to below 30 ppm it's time to bring them back up to about 50 ppm.

Hope this helps.

[kevinm]

Thanks Dave and Evan.

Dave, I took your advice yesterday.

Evan, this morning I read the thread, and have now added 15 boxes (thats all the store had on the shelf), and 4 galloons of acid.

I'll test this afternoon. I don't have the borate strips, so I won't be able to test this change.

We've noticed that the water doesn't feel as silky this year. From what I've read, this should help get that feeling back. I've been using plain salt (the blue bags from Lowes) instead of Beginnings and Renewal. They must include this?

Thanks again, I'll let you know how it goes.

Evan, by the way I have a cartridge filter, so why no increase from the 3 boxes I added before is still a mystery?

Regards,
Kevin

[waterbear]

Thanks Dave and Evan.

Dave, I took your advice yesterday.

Evan, this morning I read the thread, and have now added 15 boxes (thats all the store had on the shelf), and 4 galloons of acid.
should still get you into the 30 -50 ppm 'sweet spot'
I'll test this afternoon. I don't have the borate strips, so I won't be able to test this change.
I buy mine online from www.diywatertesting.com (http://www.diywatertesting.com) good prices and fast ship.
We've noticed that the water doesn't feel as silky this year. From what I've read, this should help get that feeling back. I've been using plain salt (the blue bags from Lowes) instead of Beginnings and Renewal. They must include this?
yep, along with CYA and dry acid at a very high price!
Thanks again, I'll let you know how it goes.

Evan, by the way I have a cartridge filter, so why no increase from the 3 boxes I added before is still a mystery?
IF they are testing with strips and a strip reader that is not a very accurate test method (but close enough for borates). I suspect that the pH of the sample will have an impact on the results with strips just from what I have seen testing my own pool but I have not proof. If they are doing the titration test (which acutally tests for boric acid) then it is prone to error if done imporperly. Instead of using indicators this test should really be done with a pH meter. Either way I would not lose much sleep over it. Did your salt level also go down in the period between the tests? If so it was just probably splashout.
Regards,
Kevin
Hope this helps. Proteam makes a titration test for borates (their brand is Supreme) but the test kit is very expensive. I believe retail is about $75 or so and I have not been able to find it. We sell Proteam where I work and even our Proteam distributor does not stock it (although they can get it for me). If you can find them the LaMotte borate strips are supposed to be easier to read than the AquaChek or the Proteam strips (according to LaMotte tech support. I do put some faith in what they say since we use LaMotte water testing at work and their tech support has always been right on the money every time I have consulted them). I have not been able to find them except one place online that only sells them by the case!