Fighting Algae with Borax [Archive]

waterbear

06-06-2007, 10:27 PM

BleachCalc has an error in the borax section and it underdoses by a large margin. To get to 50 ppm in a 40k pool you will need 150 lbs of borax (sodium tetraborate decahydrate), just slightly over 31 and a half boxes of 20 mule team, and 9 gallons, 1 quart, and 1 pint of muriatic acid to neutalize the pH rise and create the borate/boric acid buffer.
If you use sodium tetraborate pentahydrate (Proteam Supreme, Bioguard Optimizer, Omni Maximizer, Poolife Endure) then you will need 107 lbs and 8 gallons, 1 quart, and 3 ounces of muriatic acid.
Add half the amount of borax, then half the acid, then the rest of the borax and all but 1 gallon of the remaining acid. circulate for about 24 hours and then adjust your pH to 7.6 by adding acid. If you overshoot and the pH goes too low then either add a bit more borax to bring it up or aerate the water.

Edit: made a mistake in the amount needed for 50 ppm with the pentahydrate. 107 lbs will only gety you to 40 ppm. to get to 50 ppm you need 134 lbs and 10 gallons, and 3/4 cup acid!

CarlD

06-07-2007, 10:04 AM

31 boxes of Borax and 9 gallons of Muriatic Acid?

Is your problem algae or algae prevention?

If it's algae, just attack it by the usual means. If it's algae prevention, well, enjoy yourself.

For me, regular pool maintenance and weekly dosing with 1-2 oz of PolyQuat does it.

adesalvo

06-07-2007, 03:46 PM

It really takes a lot of borax to get to 50 ppm. It may be even higher. In the past I divided the dose into quarters and adjusted the ph with acid after each dose. The thought was to prevent (or decrease) the wild pH swing the borax causes.

I am believe that the water is sharper and more crisp looking with the borates included. This is totally subjective and cannot be proven.

Feel safe doing it...

Tredge

06-07-2007, 07:12 PM

I can assume I have 0ppm borates in the water now correct?

Never added any before.....

waterbear

06-07-2007, 07:57 PM

If you have never used borax to adjust pH it's a safe assumption. I would pick up some AquaChek (or Proteam) borate test strips. I order my Aquachek borate strips from here:
http://www.diywatertesting.com/

Very fast shipping and good price!

Tredge

07-04-2007, 06:12 PM

Just wanted to provide an Update.

I ordered those strips and waterbear was right on target for the amount of borax to add.

I am very pleased to report that borax works! I've had to deal with mustard algae every year (I live next to a large marsh full of it). Every year I go through a shock cycle and it never really goes away completely...until this year!

My pool is algae free and crystal clear.....but most importantly...its staying that way without weekly shocking.

Thanks waterbear for the help!

waterbear

07-05-2007, 12:43 AM

It wasn't me, it was the borax!;)

topless

07-05-2007, 01:44 PM

I saw this thread and am interested in resolving my multi-year battle with mustard algae. I looked for the thread mentioned in the China Shop, but didn't see it.

I have been shocking my pool for a month in between rains and if I don't keep the chlorine about 25ppm, the algae comes back in a day or 2. Last week I had the pool covered for 4 days while it rained and it set me back from seeing the bottom of the pool, to not being able to see the bottom step.
The pool has been clearing back up, and can see the bottom of the shallow end, again.
I've been lowering my TA by adding acid and aerating, which is working.
When I opened it after the 4 days, I could see the mustard algae on the steps before I vacuumed.

chem geek

07-05-2007, 01:58 PM

The thread is here (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=4712).

topless

07-07-2007, 09:15 PM

After reading and re-reading the test thread, I decided to add the borax and acid to my pool. I've been battling mustard algae and even with FC in the upper 20'sppm the pool just wouldn't clear out completely. About 3 years ago I got talked into the Bioguard Optimizer plus and it worked, but not understanding how or what to test for, eventually I lost the benefits.
This morning my pool before was still a little cloudy, I couldn't see the main drain. I backwashed the filter and vacuumed to waste.
FC -15
cc -.5
cya -50
temp -80
ph 7.3-4
TA- 220

I added 8 boxes of borax and 2.5 gallons of muratic acid, within 30 minutes the cloudy bottom cleared up. After an hour I checked the ph, it was right at 7.4.
6 hours later, I added 7 more boxes and another 2.5 gallons.
I just ran all tests
FC 5.5
CC- under .5
cya -under 50
ph 7.2 (I'm aerating to bring down the TA, 2 weeks ago it was over 300)
TA-190
temp -81
The water is crystal clear, I can see sand grains on the bottom next to the main drain.
This may not be the best thing, but considering I've been shocking my pool for 4 weeks, (over 120 gallons of bleach and about 60 lbs of cal-hypo) I am quite pleased with the results.

waterbear

07-07-2007, 10:30 PM

I guess we're getting some empirical proof that borates do kill algae!

Kimrst

07-08-2007, 03:33 PM

I added borax to my intex pool the begining of the season and I've not had the mustard bloom this year either. Its been too long since I did it to remember how much I put in my 6500 frame pool, but I know that is the thing that I'm doing diffrent this year and its working. I'd advise all kiddy poolers to try this in the begining of the season and see if it doesn't work for them. Kimrst

leejp

07-08-2007, 10:27 PM

I'm in the Northeast and I generally have to adjust the PH up after heavy rains (which are acidic). Can the Borax be added over several years of time and still be effective?

And... is there a place where one can purchase Borax in bulk?

waterbear

07-09-2007, 12:22 AM

leejp

07-09-2007, 08:30 AM

To be effective it needs to be in the 30-50 ppm range. Adding borax for pH control generally will not get it into that range. You can probably purchase either the decahydrate or the pentahydrate form in bulk from a chemical supply. Here is a link for the decahydrate form (same as 20 mule team)
http://www.chemistrystore.com/borax.htm

Their prices are actually higher than the grocery store or walmart where you can buy a 4.75 lb box of 20 mule team borax for under $3!

Edit: To achieve 50 ppm borates in your 26k pool (assuming that no borates in the water) you would need 97.5 lbs (about 20.5 boxes of 20 mule team) and would need about 6 gallons of muriatic acid to bring the pH back in line and create the boric acid/borate buffer system in the water.

Are Borates effective in controlling bacteria as well? Since going BBB and running appropruate FC for my CYA I have not had an algae problem but did have pink bacteria once. Those buggers are prety persistent. The original owners of the house used Baquacil (Bioguard Softswim) but converted and I think the bacteria may be left over from way back then.

So about ~$100 for the"experiment". If Borates can help with Bacteria it may be worth a try.

topless

07-09-2007, 09:13 AM

I paid $2.67 per box at Walmart.
Prior to adding the borax, I was having to add 5-6 lbs of cal-hypo or more per day and keeping the fc above 20 ppm. 2 days now, I added 1 bottle of bleach to keep fc above 6 ppm, my cya is still close to 50.
I'm having trouble letting go of continuously adding chlorine, it's become a habit.:D

chem geek

07-09-2007, 11:11 AM

topless,

I'm glad the Borax is working for you and it's good to know that it seems to inhibit yellow/mustard algae. Prior to your experience, we only saw that it seemed to inhibit the much more common green algae.

By the way, to shock yellow/mustard algae we figured out (through a few users experiences on this forum) that it takes lowering the pH to 7.2 and then raising the FC to 60% of the CYA level (instead the usual 40% for green algae) and holding it there for at least 2-3 days. In your case that would have been 30 ppm FC. Then to keep away the yellow/mustard algae if it gets reintroduced it would take a minimum FC level of 15% of the CYA level or 7.5 ppm FC in your case. In this post (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?p=50691#post50691) you said you had to shock at 25 ppm FC or else the yellow/mustard algae would return in a few days. So that's close to the 30 required for shocking this algae, but was the subsequent maintenance level required to keep it away 7.5 ppm or something else -- the post sounded like dropping anywhere below 25 ppm FC would have the algae return? I just want to confirm that you weren't seeing anything inconsistent with "first 7.2 pH then 30 ppm FC shock then 7.5 ppm FC maintain" at 50 ppm CYA, since this is the advice we are currently giving (and now we can say that Borates will help as well).

Richard

topless

07-10-2007, 12:09 PM

I was trying to keep the ph at 7.2 and aerating it to lower my TA. When it would get back to 7.4, I added a quart of acid to lower it back down.
I had a tough time keeping the FC above 25 and I was trying to keep it over 30, but the algae was consuming 15-20 ppm every 12 hours especially during the day. That's part of the reason I went to cal-hypo granules and 3" pucks, I was buying 30 bottles of bleach at a time and went through 60 bottles in one weekend. The cal-hypo allowed me to keep the FC higher with less trash. Along with adding 5-6 lbs of granules ( in my pool that should equal 4ppm per lb)I would put 2-3 pucks in the skimmer and 4-6 in front of discharge nozzles, in an attempt to keep the FC up. At one point I added 12 lbs of granules and raised the pool level trying to kill anything and everything. After that, it was easier to keep the FC near 30.
With this amount of FC, the pool was clearing, but the last 2-3 days it seemed to be stalled out leaving the deep end cloudy at the bottom.

It rained again yesterday, so the cover has been closed. If the sun stays out today (40% chance of rain), I'll open it this afternoon and test again. Hopefully, the pool will still be clear.

chem geek

07-10-2007, 12:21 PM

When you have that much junk in the pool, it sometimes helps to vacuum to waste if it is settled at all (perhaps when the pump is off for a short time). Chlorine will break down algae, but when there's a whole lot of it then it is sometimes more efficient to remove the bulk directly or via the filter and frequent backwashing (for sand filter). In some cases, a floc helps consolidate the particles and settle to the bottom to make vacuum to waste easier and usually that is a last resort, but it really depends on how much there is to clear. Though chlorine can clear it, there's a tradeoff between how much chlorine you're willing to use vs. doing physical removal. When most people use chlorine, they are also doing some sort of physical removal as well whether that's vacuum to waste or regular cleaning out of the filter.

If your pool doesn't have a floor drain, then circulation can be poor at the bottom so vacuum to waste (possibly after a floc) may work better in that case.

Anyway, it sounds like the shock level worked except for the large bulk of material and possibly poor bottom circulation, but avoidance is easier and hopefully the Borates will work long-term for you.

Richard

topless

07-11-2007, 08:55 PM

UPDATE:
Opened the pool for the first time since Sunday evening. Crystal clear water (I was concerned) I ran tests: (I haven't received my borate test strips yet.)
FC -1.5
cc- less than .5
ph- 7.3
temp -81
cya - under 50
TA - 160
More rain is forecast, so I added a bottle of bleach and closed it back up.

I'm no chemist, but I'm a believer in borates.

Sumo1

07-12-2007, 12:45 AM

I'm not trying to hijack this thread but I'll ask for advice for a friend who can't post here. Assuming no borates are present, how much borax and how much acid would be appropriate for an Intex pool w/7200 gallon capacity? Do you think it's safe for her to use liquid acid in an Intex pool? Thanks,
Hal

waterbear

07-12-2007, 06:16 AM

each 60 oz borax raises 1000 gallons 50 ppm and requieres 30 oz of acid. Each box of 20 mule team is 76 oz. I am going to assume 7000 gal of water which sould be fine so your friend would need 26 1/4 lbs borax (about 5 1/2 boxes) and 1 1/2 gallon and about 1 pint of acid. The acid should be fine in an intext pool. Put in half the borax (presdissolved), then 3/4 gallon of acid (3 quarts)--you might want to add it a quart at a time by putting each quart into a 5 gal bucket of water first and then broadcasting it into the pool, always add the acid to water--NOT the other way around), brush the pool well to mix it up. Then add the rest of the borax and the other 3 quarts of acid and brush and let it circulate for about 24 hours. Test the pH and bring it back down to 7.6 with the rest of the acid. You might need an ounce or so more to get to 7.6 over the pint.

Sumo1

07-12-2007, 11:14 AM

Thanks, Evan. I'll pass it on.:)
Hal

jenpen400

07-12-2007, 02:16 PM

I'm thinking about borates too first year I have been fighting algae. Surgery and three herniated discs in my neck have made daily pool more difficult. It's a real pain lugging all the bleach. I have sky high phosphates from fill water. 13,500 above ground pool I followed the posts in the china shop but with the meds and all I need borates for dummy's OK I will get the strips. Now how much do I add when and where? I have never added any Borax to the water.
Thanks Again,
jennifer

waterbear

07-12-2007, 07:59 PM

about 10.5 boxes will get you pretty close to 50 ppm and you will need about 3 gallons of acid. Add half the borax and half the acid and then add the rest of the borax and acid. Wait 24 hours and bring your pH down to 7.6. It will most likely be slightly higher than that.

Sumo1

07-12-2007, 11:08 PM

Concerning JENPEN's sky high phosphates, a 'conventional' thinking pool service friend of mine has fallen head over heels in love with SeaKleer (SeaKleen?) phosphate remover. He says it has virtually eliminated his concerns about algae in the pools he services and he's been telling me I need to treat my pool with it. The only algae issue I've had in the last 2 years was when I left town for 11 days and forgot to increase the CL level. The thinking makes sense to me...if the algae has nothing to eat, it can't survive, can it? What say you??
Hal

chem geek

07-12-2007, 11:26 PM

1) Phosphate remover is expensive while maintaining sufficient chlorine levels is not.

2) Fertilizer contains both nitrates and phosphates so if you've got any planting near your pool or live near agriculture, then odds are you've got this stuff blowing in every now and then so this isn't a one-time removal issue.

3) Pools with high phosphates, but proper chlorine levels, do not have an algae problem. There were two exceptions to this with VERY high phosphate levels reported on this forum (I think it was this forum), but we never followed up to make sure it wasn't something else. Perhaps extremely high phosphate levels may require a somewhat higher chlorine level to keep away algae, but this is speculation.

4) You can accomplish the same thing (i.e. keep away algae) by using PolyQuat 60, though that needs to be added, at least a little, every week.

5) You can accomplish the same thing (i.e. keep away algae) by having 30-50 ppm Borates in the pool.

Try letting the chlorine drop to zero or get really low in one of these phosphate-removed pools and see how long it takes for algae to develop. If it really worked that well, then such removal products would tell you that you could lower your chlorine levels since you no longer need as much chlorine since it no longer has to consume any algae (it's still needed for disinfection at very low levels and needed enough in reserve to not run out). I haven't heard such claims so suspect that chlorine is STILL needed so why not just maintain it at the proper level. Worst case, use a little PolyQuat 60 every now and then for insurance.

Richard

Sumo1

07-12-2007, 11:36 PM

Do you know if Polyquat has metals in it that might affect a SWG? I've no experience with P-60, only have read of it's use in Poolforum. Thanks.
Hal

topless

07-13-2007, 08:39 AM

2 years ago, I to fell into the pool store line that I had high phosphates and that was the reason for my algae problem. So I bought and used a couple hundred dollars of No-Phos. Other than sucking money from my wallet, I never saw any other effect.

I got my borate test strips, my borates are at 80. Probably because I had added 2 boxes of Borax right after I had opened the pool and my ph was low. I shouldn't have. I didn't know about aerating at that point. I didn't think much of that would be left after all the refilling I did during vacuuming to waste.

chem geek

07-13-2007, 10:06 AM

Sumo1,

PolyQuat 60 has no metals in it. I forgot to list copper as an algaecide in my list of ways to keep away algae. Copper is a very effective algaecide, not only for preventing algae, but also for killing existing algae, BUT it comes with serious side effects of precipitating out as blue-green copper hydroxide at high pH causing water to turn greenish (and can stain plaster, too) and also can make blond hair turn green. There are also linear quats as an algaecide, but those tend to foam with aeration so is why we generally only suggest maintaining chlorine levels to keep away algae or using PolyQuat 60 in small amounts mostly as insurance (for prevention, not for getting rid of an existing bloom).

PolyQuat 60 is just a long polymer (which just means a very long molecule with repeating subunits) whose key chemical factor is a nitrogen that carries an extra positive charge with it. So you can imagine this long string of a molecule that has positive charges strung along it sort of like Christmas lights. Most cells, including algae cells, have a negative surface charge so the PolyQuat is attracted to them and will tend to clump them together (in this sense, PolyQuat is also a clarifier and was originally sold as such until it was seen as more profitable to sell it as an algaecide -- it's really both). When attached to the algae cells, the large molecule tends to block the ion channels preventing the cells from getting nutrients (positive charged ions, including phosphates, nitrates and carbonates) from the water. It also has some disinfection capability against bacteria that works in the same manner, but because this process is slow-acting it cannot be used alone (i.e. chlorine is still required) and it does not inactivate (oxidize) viruses.

There should be no problem using PolyQuat in a pool with an SWG.

Richard

aylad

07-13-2007, 11:40 AM

When attached to the algae cells, the large molecule tends to block the ion channels preventing the cells from getting nutrients (positive charged ions, including phosphates, nitrates and carbonates) from the water. Richard

Seems to be one more reason to avoid the phosphate removers?

Janet

waterbear

07-13-2007, 11:44 AM

Seems to be one more reason to avoid the phosphate removers?

Janet
Not really since phosphate removers remove phosphates and eliminate ONE of the sources of algae nutrition. There are still carbonates and possibly nitrates in the water that the algae can feed on. THAT is the reason that phosphate removers are not really necessary.

chem geek

07-13-2007, 12:47 PM

I may be wrong about this, but I believe that nitrogen and phosphorous are both required nutrients -- it's not an "or" relationship. This link (http://www.krisweb.com/krissheepscot/krisdb/html/krisweb/stream/nutrients.htm) describes some of the nutrient requirements and this link (http://www.iopan.gda.pl/oceanologia/411plins.pdf) talks more about the N:P ratio and how a lower ratio can lead to algal blooms and this link (http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0024-3590(198801)33%3A1%3C1%3AZTBNAP%3E2.0.CO%3B2-H) refers to N-limited vs. P-limited algal growth with the strong implication that both nutrients are required (i.e. both nitrates and orthophosphates). I've read other info that's consistent with this. I think the only either/or situation was between phosphorous and silicon for some species of algae that could or do use silicon instead of phosphorous. You'll also find C:N:P ratio data that adds carbonates to the mix, but again it's not an "or" relationship but an "and" relationship (i.e. all are required nutrients so eliminating any of them will eliminate algal growth).

We can't obviously eliminate carbonates from the water since it's exposed to carbon dioxide in the air and we want a pH buffer and calcium carbonate saturation. Ammonia may be present as a source of nitrogen, but only if chlorine is not present (since monochloramine occurs very, very quickly), but monochloramine would be taken up as algae food and would then kill the algae. So realistically it is nitrates that would be a source of nitrogen for algae. Typically the nitrates and phosphorous would both get into pools from fertilizer (i.e. blown soil), but nitrates can also come from the oxidation of organics (where nitrates are produced instead of nitrogen gas) and nitrogen gas itself can combine with oxygen and water to form nitrates (this is actually slightly thermodynamically favored and were it not for living organisms doing denitrification, biosynthesis and nitrogen fixation, the oceans would be 0.1 Molar HNO3).

Richard

heymom1

07-16-2007, 10:30 PM

When you add the borax and muriatic acid, is it a one-time application? Or do you have to keep going back and fiddling with it? We've gotten rid of our mustard algae (but it rained again today) with high CL levels consistently, and now it's either time to start adding Polyquat or go the Borax way. I need easy. I will tell you that I don't like dealing with muriatic acid, I just don't - chemicals that smoke as you open them scare me. So if the borax is a one-time application (per season) I can go that way, or do the Polyquat.

Recommendations?

chem geek

07-16-2007, 10:39 PM

The Borax + Acid is one-time except for small additions to compensate for dilution (splash-out, backwashing, rain overflow, etc.).

waterbear

07-16-2007, 11:25 PM

If you initially add 50 ppm just monitor it and when it drops to 30 ppm bump it back up to 50 ppm.

jhm

07-28-2007, 10:04 AM

It wasn't me, it was the borax!;)
Someone in another thread expressed concern about dogs drinking pool water with a high borax level. Any truth to that? I don't think I can keep my dog from drinking the water, but I read your whole other thread and the borax looks like it will kill two birds with one stone for me.

Thanks!

Tredge

07-28-2007, 02:18 PM

Chemgeek had shown that borax at 50ppm is really no more 'toxic' than chlorine at normal levels. (At least thats how I read it).

Anyways....my dog drinks out of the pool regularly and shes very healthy. The way I see it that water is the cleanest she'll ever drink.

Most dogs can handle far more toxins than humans can due to their exceptionally large livers.

jhm

07-29-2007, 10:35 AM

Chemgeek had shown that borax at 50ppm is really no more 'toxic' than chlorine at normal levels...
Awesome! Time to pack in the Mule Team. :)

topless

08-01-2007, 08:47 AM

Here's an update, I still have 50 ppm borates in my pool.
Sunday, my pool was crystal clear and I had to add a lb of cya, the level had dropped below 30ppm. Sunday evening a storm moved in and I closed the pool cover.
This morning I opened it, to a green pool, after about 60 hours.

no FC, no cya, ph 7.5. I'm so irritated I'm thinking of filling the pool with concrete.
Whatever kind of algae is in my pool is proving to be impossible to eliminate completely. So now, I'm back to square 1, adding bleach in crazy quantities.

salinda

08-01-2007, 11:52 AM

Curious and jumping in here....do you have an swg? If you don't, I would consider trying that BEFORE filling in the pool with concrete. All the water going through the cell gets a brief shock so intuitively, it should work for you.

waterbear

08-01-2007, 03:41 PM

topless

08-02-2007, 10:08 AM

What was your FC BEFORE you covered the pool? Also, why did your CYA level drop? If the chlorine was low before you covered the pool borates by themselves won't prevent algae.
I'm sure the FC was fairly low after a day of swimming, I checked it in the morning and it was about 3ppm. The storm came in very quickly and if I had just added another bottle of bleach before closing, I'm sure I would have had no problem.
I added cya back into the pool, dropped the ph to 7.2 and shocked it to about 40ppm yesterday. This morning I could see the bottom in the 6' area while brushing. I expect to have it cleared out by tomorrow.
I don't know why the cya disappeared unless the algae already had started to grow and bacteria was consuming it. It had been pretty level for the last couple of weeks, then suddenly started dropping over the weekend.
I was really surprised how quickly it turned green and cloudy.

salinda

08-02-2007, 12:28 PM

It is my understanding that the bacteria that consumes the cya is found in soil in particular. Maybe that bacteria got swept into your pool even with the cover. Not an expert, but this is what I have gleaned from all of the research I have done on it....

topless

08-02-2007, 04:47 PM

That's possible, my pool cover setup is almost 20 years old. Back then they didn't concrete the bottom, it's dirt.

Tredge

08-03-2007, 01:33 PM

Sorry to hear about your trouble.

The borax is still working miracles for me. My pool maintenance is down a ton...I havent even brushed once all summer!

I do have an SWG though.

When the pool is perfectly still I cant tell if there is water in it or not. Its that clear.

waterbear

08-03-2007, 08:35 PM

People tend to forget about a piece of equipment in most inground pools, the hydrostatic relief valve. If you are having a lot of rain and the ground is saturated the valve can open and allow groundwater into the pool. This is one of the ways that they are supposed to work. It can dilute all the chems in your pool and can lead to an algae outbreak, even with a covered pool.

salinda

08-03-2007, 08:43 PM

Curious about this: What about areas like mine that have a relatively high water table? My water is pretty perfect but in the winter is when the problem is the worst around here. People get flooding in crawl spaces and such, so the 10 ft deep end of my pool is certainly under the water table. Does this mean the valve is open a lot in the winter? If that groundwater with its cya-eating bacteria is getting in, that might explain the cya losses I have been experiencing every winter.