Finally installing. A few random questions:

[badutahboy]

HEy guys, I'm finally getting ready to install my new pool (atlantic vantage 18x33 buttress free)...

As I was reading through the directions I had a couple questions about things that either conflict with information I've read here, or have never been addressed here to my knowledge..

1. The instructions say to put patio blocks underneath the ends of the rails... I've seen on here that it's not totally necessary.. Is there a solid answer to this? I live in Utah, so we get frost, but my soil is very solidly compacted already.... so much so that digging a hole to plant a tree proved futile yesterday..

2. The instructions say to fill the trenches with crushed limestone.. Is this necessary, or can I just re-backfill them with the dirt I pulled out? I don't see the structural advantage to limestone, since the trenches run across the middle of the pool, and I don't think you'll see an imperfection in settling of the trenches, because I'm using 1 1/2" foam under my liner.

3. Can I spray the ground with triox today, before installing the liner (I'll do it multiple hours before)? I had a few weeds coming through the dirty, and I want to try and make sure I don't battle them... ALso, will this even be an issue, since I'm using the foam under my liner?

4. As I said, I'm using 1 1/2" foam under the liner.. I also have the little 3" sticky back cove from the dealer... Is there any benefit to creating a sand cove, given my situation, or will the foam cove/styrofoam bottom suffice?

[hrsdennis]

Hi Bad, How bout them Jazz? I sure hope the Suns win a couple more so we can play you guys.

I think the overall consensus is you are better off without the end blocks. Brace blocks are a must have.

Dirt is fine for all of your backfill needs. They just want to make sure it will pack firm and not settle under the weight of the water.

I would use your foam first with your preformed coving over that. Sand is not needed and would just mess things up.

I would give the fumes from the triox as much time as possible to disperse before putting a liner over it. A couple of days would be ideal.

Best of luck, Dennis

[badutahboy]

Thanks for the info dennis... much appreciated.

For the bracing blocks, is the 12x12x1 block the instructions call for enough? I saw that matt recommended something bigger in another thread, but home depot here doesn't sell solid cinder blocks anymore.... just the decorative landscaping blocks, which are pretty crumbly. I was thinking of stacking two 12x12x1 blocks on top of another... good idea or bad?



As for the jazz.. thanks! I'm hoping for phoenix to win too.... I think you guys would be a little easier for us to contain than San Antonio, because their style of play is similar to ours, and they'll beat us in most direct matchups.. You guys present more of a coaching challenge, but if we can disrupt your game plan, you're more beatable than San Antonio...

I was seriously disappointed when you guys lost the other night... Too bad David Stern and Co are dead set on S.A. getting past you.. diaw and stoudamire got screwed!

[badutahboy]

Another question... Is there a shortcut method of getting the braces aligned, other than staking out 20 different stake locations?

It seems to me that I ought to be able to find the exact center point, and set up the center brace, then measure the distance from the center brace, to the next brace, and align them that way... My pool is running alongside a block wall, much like the one in dennis' picture install thread from last year, so it seems like I can check for square by making sure the braces are parrallel to each other, and the same distance off the block wall.

Am I wrong? or am I wasting a ton of time following the manufacturer's install instructions, being that my ground is already level... It seems that all their staking instructions are mostly geared towards leveling, but then the brace locations are figured off those existing stakes.

Just FYI, the instructions I'm looking at are located here:

http://www.atlanticpoolproducts.com/assets/manual/vantagegib.pdf

[hrsdennis]

Hey Bad, Check out this thread and let me know if this is the pool you are installing.

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=4411

Those instructions are something else. :)

[badutahboy]

That's the thread I was referring to..

My wall has a different pattern, but from what I understand, Atlantic pools packages the same pool under 3 different names, with different wall designs.. The one I bought is called the J-5000.. they also call it the Vantage, and I don't know the third name, but I don't think it's gibralter... regardless, the pools are VERY similar... so I would assume the install procedure would be almost exactly the same.

[badutahboy]

Bump.. Dennis? got any advice?

[hrsdennis]

Hi, I am off today to build a 15 x 30. I will get a few detailed photos for you. I only use a string on one side and a center point as a guide. From there I space with the bottom rails and connecting straps.

With a tape measure I make sure the distance apart is the same at the front and rear of the braces. I also check the entire brace assembly for square before backfilling.

I hope I can post more this evening, Dennis

[badutahboy]

Hi, I am off today to build a 15 x 30. I will get a few detailed photos for you. I only use a string on one side and a center point as a guide. From there I space with the bottom rails and connecting straps.

With a tape measure I make sure the distance apart is the same at the front and rear of the braces. I also check the entire brace assembly for square before backfilling.

I hope I can post more this evening, Dennis



Awesome... That's pretty close to what I was anticipating doing myself... I'd appreciate the pics!

Thanks a ton for all your advice. Without folks like you, the entire web would be a useless collection of porn and news sites.

[waste]

Bad, not all the porn is useless:D

[hrsdennis]

OK Ted, just because I had an uncontrollable laugh at your last comment, that doesn’t make me guilty of anything. :)

So I got to work today, I had my camera but forgot the batteries. I had my cheap backup however, it always travels with me. When I get to a job I just want to know four things. I need to know where one end of the pool will be and where one side will be. I also ask where you want the vegetation piled and where you want the filter located.

In this case the pool was to run parallel with the house, not the back fence. I measured off the house to set the stakes for my side string. If you look close you will see my stakes are just screwdrivers, they work best for me. I came in 15’ from my end point and I have a center. With a center point and a side string I am set to go. This picture shows my first brace set against the string and point directly at my center stake.

http://www.shadebuilder.com/images/atlantic1.jpg

From that one brace assembly I can use the bottom rails and straps to correctly position the rest of the braces. With all of this laid out you need to check for square before you begin to dig. Make a rectangle out or the six braces. Crisscross a tape measure from the outside brace on one side to the opposing outside brace on the other side. Adjust all three braces on one side or the other, side to side, until they measure perfectly square. If one side is just a touch off the string and it measures square you are set to mark your trenches. Once marked simply move the brace assemblies aside and dig.

http://www.shadebuilder.com/images/atlantic2.jpg

This is where my laser level works its magic. The bottom channel is 3”. If I have determined the ground level to be a one I set all of the brace channels and the tops of all of the blocks at a four. I then move the brace assemblies back into place. I line up with the string, check for square and then recheck the top level of the front and back of each brace. I may have to tap one down a bit or raise one a hair, but I make them all prefect. I then backfill and pack the trenches and the braces are set.

Hope that helps a little, Dennis

[badutahboy]

OK Ted, just because I had an uncontrollable laugh at your last comment, that doesn’t make me guilty of anything. :)

So I got to work today, I had my camera but forgot the batteries. I had my cheap backup however, it always travels with me. When I get to a job I just want to know four things. I need to know where one end of the pool will be and where one side will be. I also ask where you want the vegetation piled and where you want the filter located.

In this case the pool was to run parallel with the house, not the back fence. I measured off the house to set the stakes for my side string. If you look close you will see my stakes are just screwdrivers, they work best for me. I came in 15’ from my end point and I have a center. With a center point and a side string I am set to go. This picture shows my first brace set against the string and point directly at my center stake.
From that one brace assembly I can use the bottom rails and straps to correctly position the rest of the braces. With all of this laid out you need to check for square before you begin to dig. Make a rectangle out or the six braces. Crisscross a tape measure from the outside brace on one side to the opposing outside brace on the other side. Adjust all three braces on one side or the other, side to side, until they measure perfectly square. If one side is just a touch off the string and it measures square you are set to mark your trenches. Once marked simply move the brace assemblies aside and dig.


This is where my laser level works its magic. The bottom channel is 3”. If I have determined the ground level to be a one I set all of the brace channels and the tops of all of the blocks at a four. I then move the brace assemblies back into place. I line up with the string, check for square and then recheck the top level of the front and back of each brace. I may have to tap one down a bit or raise one a hair, but I make them all prefect. I then backfill and pack the trenches and the braces are set.

Hope that helps a little, Dennis

Will you explain your last paragraph a little more? What do you mean by "a one" and "a four"... are these references on your laser level (presumably in inches)?

Do you set your braces perfectly level in the trenches, or do you angle them toward the pool by the width of your block? If you angle them, do you backfill with dirt or gravel underneath the braces before setting them, or set them and let nature backfill the gaps? My instructions call for the trenches to be 5 1/2" deep, with a little backfilled crusher run, an angled area which the brace sits on, etc... I'm just wondering if all those steps are truly necessary.

Any chance you've got pictures of the next few steps of the process? Trenches, braces dropped into the trenches, stabilizing plates installed, etc?

Thanks again for your help. I think I'm starting to get it... We did basically the same thing you do today, but we did it the hard way.. we strung the whole thing, brought it into square, marked the trenches and started digging.. Got one trench dug, but not "perfected".. it's still a little high in a few spots and might be low in 1-2 others. I'll be digging the other two trenches tomorrow and hopefully getting the braces all set... In fact, I'd like to get the pool most of the way complete tomorrow.. I have all day to work on it, and it's supposed to be a nice 75ish degrees (it was over 90 today).

[hrsdennis]

Hi again, yes the numbers are just a reference point. The bottom channel is three inches deep. If I have determined my outside, ground level will be say 3 ½ on my level stick, then I want the front part of my trenches to be set at a 6 ½. The top of the blocks should also be a 6 ½, no slope. When the brace assembly is set into the hole the front should read a 3 ½ and the back should read a 3 ½.

I do slope slightly, front to rear, only to ensure there are no high spots between the front of the channel and the block the rear is resting on. I am sorry I do not have photos to illustrate this. It is important that the front of the channel read the same as the rear.

As for packing, I use the dirt that came out of the trenches and foot stomp it. This is however Arizona, the instructions were written for all of the other areas where the soil is much different. This is where you need to decide if your soil will pack OK, or if screenings, or crusher run would work better.

I will check back as often as possible tomorrow, maybe be of some more help.

Dennis

[badutahboy]

Hi again, yes the numbers are just a reference point. The bottom channel is three inches deep. If I have determined my outside, ground level will be say 3 ½ on my level stick, then I want the front part of my trenches to be set at a 6 ½. The top of the blocks should also be a 6 ½, no slope. When the brace assembly is set into the hole the front should read a 3 ½ and the back should read a 3 ½.

I do slope slightly, front to rear, only to ensure there are no high spots between the front of the channel and the block the rear is resting on. I am sorry I do not have photos to illustrate this. It is important that the front of the channel read the same as the rear.

As for packing, I use the dirt that came out of the trenches and foot stomp it. This is however Arizona, the instructions were written for all of the other areas where the soil is much different. This is where you need to decide if your soil will pack OK, or if screenings, or crusher run would work better.

I will check back as often as possible tomorrow, maybe be of some more help.

Dennis


Crap, I've got some backfilling to do in my trench then... It's about 5" deep right now. Sadly, the dirt I'm pulling out isn't great for compacting.. it's really dusty, silt crap. Water helps some, but it usually just creates a bog that moves away from the pressure. I think I'll backfill with gravel, and then put a layer of dirt over the top, just to hide the rough edges of the rock... It shouldn't matter much with the 1" foam I'm going to use...



I think I'm with you now... These instructions are insanely overcomplicated.

I was seriously contemplating hiring someone to build my pool, thinking this was just the most tedious thing ever... with your help, I think I can get it done tomorrow, or at least get myself to a very close spot to finish it on tuesday..

We're hoping to be swimming next weekend, which may not happen anyway, because it's supposed to be a cool week, and our tap water is currently about 55 degrees.

Again, thanks for your help. I'll post any of my own shortcuts I find once I get finished... guess I better break out the camera... I haven't taken any pics yet.

[badutahboy]

One more quick question.. I'm sure it'll answer itself in time, but the instructions in my book aren't clear at all....

When it comes to the straps between the braces, do these get buried, or sit on top of the soil?

Also, for trenching, does the strap that connects the two braces (across from each other) get buried or go on the soil? (do you dig your trenches the full length of the pool, or just the 4-5' that's required to get the brace in the ground?)

[hrsdennis]

The only things that go in the ground are the channels. The track, pressure plates and straps go on top of the ground.

http://www.shadebuilder.com/images/ovalinst3.jpg

Have a fun day, Dennis

[badutahboy]

The only things that go in the ground are the channels. The track, pressure plates and straps go on top of the ground.



Have a fun day, Dennis



Sweeet jebus that'll save me a lot of time. It took me like 2 hours to dig the one trench yesterday... I ought to be able to get the other two done in about 30 min apiece now.

thanks a lot! I'll try to post some pics tonight..

[badutahboy]

Stupid weather. It was supposed to be cool today, but dry.. it's been raining all day.. grrrrr... guess all I'm doing today is building the braces... Guess that's ok though, since they take FOREVER... daaaaaang.

Dennis, one more question for you.... do you scoop any loose dirt over the plates and straps, or should I just lay my foam right over the top of them? I know you usually cover them with sand, but what should I do in my circumstance?

[badutahboy]

Got one more question for you dennis....

Do I need to cover the panels with dirt prior to laying down my foam? They're sitting on top of the dirt, just like yours show in your pics... I'm afraid the sides of them will tear right through the foam and ruin my liner.. but at the same time, if I cover them, I either have to bring in an inch of dirt, or taper the rest of the pool to avoid humps.

Any advice?

[hrsdennis]

Yes, they do need to be well covered. I would install the wall first and then cover the pressure plates.

Dennis

[badutahboy]

Dammmmmmmit


This thing is one problem after another.

Got the wall up this morning (that was a battle, with two worthless helpers.)... got ready to put down foam, and realized that I don't have a skimmer.. they didn't ship it.

I called into poolsupplies customer service, and they REFUSED to overnight it, no matter what... So now I'm waiting a week before I even get my skimmer.

What should I do in the meantime? I'm afraid of the walls collapsing, but I don't know what I can do to prevent it... Any inout?

[hrsdennis]

By all means, finish the pool and get some water in it before it blows down. You can fill the pool to just under the skimmer level.

Setting up the filter with temp hoses going over the wall is easy. I would stay the course and get er done.

And please let us see what is going on.

Best of luck, Dennis

[badutahboy]

By all means, finish the pool and get some water in it before it blows down. You can fill the pool to just under the skimmer level.

Setting up the filter with temp hoses going over the wall is easy. I would stay the course and get er done.

And please let us see what is going on.

Best of luck, Dennis


I haven't taken any pics because I suck like that... I'm horrible about remembering to take pics, and I always regret it later...


Just ran into another problem.. we're 3" out of level from one end to the other... I have NO idea how that happened.... so I guess we're tearing stuff out and re-leveling.

I'm so damned frustrated that I'm ready to scrap the whole project.