What kind of liner do i have?

[bkwudz]

I am confused:rolleyes: , more than usual to day. My 15 x 24, 2 year old, Johnny W. pool needs a new liner do to a leak i can't find. I go to the shop were i bought it and order the liner they say i need. It is a beaded liner they say, and the sample confirms. They also say because it is a beaded liner, i don't need to remove the top rail to replace it.

I was just looking at the pool and pulled one of the top rails off, and i don't see how the original liner could be replaced without removing the top rails.

The orig liner has a distinct white area on the very top, with a 1/2" piece that is overlapping the pool wall, this is held on by a channel that goes over the liner and pool wall, basically clamping the liner to the wall.

Can anyone explain the differences in liner or how i can find out what i have.

Thanks

[bkwudz]

More info:

I just found the installation manual for the pool. They call the piece i call a "channel" a "bead receiver." The bead receiver has a channel on the inside that looks like the letter "J" the manual shows the 1/2" white area that is folded over my wall, in the channel of the bead receiver.

Could it go in either spot? Now I'm really confused.

[hrsdennis]

Hi, it sounds like they had a v-bead liner in the pool. That one goes over the wall. A beaded liner hooks into the reciever on the inside of the pool. I have seen uni bead liners with both types beads so you can choose. If the liner is baggy and oversized, and you have access to take your top rails off, you can always covert to overlap if you need to. You would just need coping strips.

The easiest I think would be to use the beaded liner in the bead reciever without taking the pool apart. The old liner can be removed with a razorblade up to just under the reciever.

Hope this helps, Dennis

[bkwudz]

Is there no way a beaded liner could be installed overlapping the pool wall and held on with the bead receiver? I talked to the pool store this morning, they insist i got a beaded liner and are selling me a beaded liner for replacement.

I could take some pics if that would help clear it up a bit.

[matt4x4]

I'd be looking for the leak hole first, even if it takes a whole day in the pool - beats lugging dirt to the flower beds!

It does sound like they installed a beaded liner as an overlap.
Does the liner have a harder plastic portion welded to it that looks like it would fit into the piece currently clamped over it pinching it down?

[bkwudz]

I'd be looking for the leak hole first, even if it takes a whole day in the pool - beats lugging dirt to the flower beds!
I tried all last season, i spent hours and hours, tried dye, tried a mask and snorkel, i only found a really small one. Fixed and this year again, after a month of closing the pool i had lost a foot of water. I wanted to find the leak, but i called 3 or 4 pool guys and all said they only do replacements, small leaks are too hard to find, and do you really want to pay them an hourly rate to search for 8 hours, it is most likely cheaper to just replace the liner they said.


It does sound like they installed a beaded liner as an overlap.
Does the liner have a harder plastic portion welded to it that looks like it would fit into the piece currently clamped over it pinching it down?

There is a harder white strip, about 1/2", at the very top of the liner, that is what is where it folds over the wall and secured by the receiver. From what i see, where it would hang from the receiver, they bottom of the "J" is pretty wide, so i don't see how it could stay in there very well, but i could see it going in there

[matt4x4]

Pics would really help!

I have a J mold liner, the way that works is that a heavier gauge white vinyl upside down J or V is welded to the liner, it overhangs the top of the wall, a groove in my top channel (resin) fits over that to help hold it in place.

A beaded liner would actually have a bead that clips into the receiver, I believe the bead is a harder milk jug type plastic and has burred edges to keep it in place, it just clips into to the C shaped receiver that is hung from the top edge of the wall.

Sounds to me like you got a J mold liner and they used the beaded liner receivers as clips to hold the J on.

Questions regarding the hole that may help us narrow down it's location:
- You said it was there since last year - how much did your water level drop over the course of the winter? Usually, your pool will drain to the height of the hole or within an inch of it. Now you only have to search at that height around your pool.
- do you have drop in steps? - reason I'm asking this si many people poke a hole or two in the liner when removing the steps, so looking in/around the area of where your steps are is another good starting place. Even non drop in steps can damage liners just from the rubbing they tend to do.

If the pool store allready ordered a liner and you're pretty determined to just replace it, the beaded liner should match your existing bead receiver

[hrsdennis]

I think BK has the same liner as you Matt, I have just heard it called a v bead.
Anything else just pulled over the wall would need coping strips, and there would be more than 1/2" overhang on the outside. Since you have the bead reciever the beaded liner should work just fine. If it is to big, pull it over the wall and hold in place with coping strips and then the reciever over the coping.

If you really want to find the hole go under the liner. You will find one or a hundred but you will find something. This is a last resort. The liner will shrink and depending on age it may not refill. The trick is to drain by 10:00 and be refilling by 11:00 on a sunny day. It has worked for me in the past.

I tend to disagree with the leak til it stops leaking theory. A pool with one foot of water in it may completely stop leaking because all of the pressure is off the holes. The holes are still in the bottom however.

Best of luck, Dennis

[matt4x4]

I know what you mean with regards to the "1 foot off the bottom" Dennis, by if your pool is still 3/4 full, at least you know the bottom (floor) is likely not the issue, I've found most leaks within inches of the water level where it settles after the winter.
Mine had a small hole from me removing the stairs myself, after the winter, I noticed the level much lower than normal, sure enough, the hole was about 2 inches below the water level.
This spring, I kept filling up the pool over and over, finally found a hole right above my return jet - once again 2" below the water level (likely the aqualuminator fountain attachment that did that hole).
So I was going off my experiences with that suggestion since it seems to always work for me.

[bkwudz]

Here are some pics, thanks for your help guys.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/paulferrari/pool005.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/paulferrari/pool004.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/paulferrari/pool003.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/paulferrari/pool002.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/paulferrari/pool001.jpg

[hrsdennis]

That is what I call a v bead liner. Muskin was the first company to use these and that's what they called them. There may be a more correct name. With that pool you could easily go beaded, v bead or overhang.

I do stand corrected as for draining till it stops to find the hole. This works well if you are lucky enough to have the hole on the side of the pool. They are the easiest to find and patch.

The liner pictured looks fairly fresh. I would spent some time trying to find the hole and maybe save the liner.

One quick note about changing a liner because you cannot find a hole. I strongly recommend going under the liner before you yank it out. You can tell a lot about your pool care history from the under side. If your cleaner is making pin holes under the ladder or if your steps are moving and causing pin holes you will know and be able to make adjustments for the next liner.

Later, Dennis

[matt4x4]

I've always known that liner as a J mold or J hook liner since it's an upside down J. That's also what it was sold to me as.
Those clips over the top of it aren't bead receivers, so a beaded liner would also require you to get the bead receivers.
I personally really like the J mold liners, yours has those plastic clip pieces to hold it in place there, mine doesn't because the upright and toprail structure of my pool is completely dufferent, I have blow molded resin pieces, they are solid but hollow, shaped with a groove to overlap the top of the wall and pinch the liner onto the wall - like a "built in clip".
I'd also be spending the time to find the hole....from what I'm seeing, your water is about 2 feet deep right now, it hasn't been dropping for a while (clean side above waterline) so it's relatively safe to say your hole is most likely within 4-6 inches of the water line. I'd dump in some bleach, stir it up with your leaf net, clear up the water, get in and start hunting from the water line down - start where your steps normally go, higher chance of the hole being there than anywhere else.

[hrsdennis]

After checking the Johnny W website I believe they call those receivers “Aluminum Coping Covers and Liner Receiver”.

I rounded up a couple pictures of bead receivers. The first is the one in question, the second two from different pool stores. I have seen a few versions of these but they are all similar.

http://www.shadebuilder.com/images/receiver1.jpg

http://www.shadebuilder.com/images/receiver2.jpg

http://www.shadebuilder.com/images/receiver3.jpg

I’m pretty sure you can install a beaded liner into that pool. I have been wrong before however. Any other opinions?

Later, Dennis

[matt4x4]

That's a bit better of a pic, I was wondering what was up with all that white along the top edge.
My liner is more like taking the top half of the receiver part and welding it directly to the liner top edge and hanging it all around.

I'd think you can install a beaded liner as well, as long as receiver size is right.

[haze_1956]

Dennis,

This is basicly the same question I think Matt is asking.

Can most AG pools take a J-hook liner as a replacement. They appear to be the simplest to install.

And if not, why?

-

[bkwudz]

Mine is definitely more like the bottom pic. There is no little lip to catch the bead like in the second picture.

I found the pool installation manual and it show two options to install the liner. Overlapped like i have it, and also with the white part that over hangs my wall in the bottom of the J in the receiver.


I also cleaned up the water and am going to try to find the leak one more time.

When i pulled the cover out last month i marked the water level, that is where it basically was for the prior 2 months. i Added 4 inches of water and marked that level as well. With in a week the level had dropped 3 inches and was an inch above the original mark. It has not moved from that mark in 2 weeks.

[hrsdennis]

BK’s liner is a J-hook. It is installed under the bead receiver. It hooks over the wall and the receiver is just used as a stabilizer rod. See the original pictures, they show that well. A j-hook liner should be able to be used on any pool.

In my previous post I was just showing the receiver that BK had over the j-hook liner (first picture) and comparing that with two store images of bead receivers. I was just trying to show that I think this pool would accept a j-hook or a beaded liner.

BK, if your instructions are showing the liner hung either way then that confirms they are bead receivers. That is all I was trying to show with my pictures.

For the same liner to fit either way it would have to be a uni bead. The two beads are different, a j-hook will not fit into a beaded slot and stay. It can however be on the same liner as a regular bead, giving an either or option.

Sorry if I confused anyone, Dennis

[matt4x4]

OK, because your cover likely had water on it, it dispersed the water under it (pushed it up some) so it ran out the hole because of the "apparently higher" water level, thus the 1" difference between your opening and after filling.
3 inches in a week should be a relatively easy hole to find, it might look like a fingernail dent (half moon) - many turn out like that.
Also, look at that approximate level around the outside of the wall, you may have a small localized dent protruding from the wall where the cut might be if something hit it from the inside.

[bkwudz]

Some more info. It is confirmed, i have a j hook liner, it is different from the one shown at the pool store because i upgraded to 25 gauge liner when i bought the pool. The pool comes standard with a 20 gauge beaded liner. So Either liner will work with the pool i have now, the only question now is if its worth pulling all the rails to replace the liner with a 25 gauge or just go with the beaded liner and be done with it.

Beaded or j hook???

You guys have any opinions on padding for under the liner and foam cove??

Thanks for all you help.