Need a "BBB For Dummies" Tutorial

[CelticDaddio]

I tried the BBB method last year. For some reason, I just didn't suceed... algae problems, other stuff.... :confused:

Is there, and if there isn't maybe someone could create it, a step-by-step guide to the BBB method? Something of a BBB Pool Method for Dummies.

I have read WaterMom's "Beginner's Guide to Pool Chemistry Needs" in the "Testing and Adjusting Pool Water Chemistry" section, but I am still a bit confused. If I can't get it right this time, my family is going to ban me from this forum because they are tired of water problems.

What I am not sure of are things such as:

What test kit to use? I know that Ben's come highly recommended, but it seems sales for the PS234 have been halted.

How do I know I am using my kit correctly? (I bought a kit a The Pool Place, and sometimes my test results vary wildly from the Pool store and my test strips, all three of which are different... who is right?

Once I get my numbers, what do I correct first? What is the order of adding B, B and B?

What is the daily maintenance required?

How can I get rid of the rust color stains on my steps, walls floor?

How would I clean the water line?

Do I still need to brush the sides floors etc?

Can I use BBB on my wife's Spa?

I would really appreaciate all the help anyone can give because I am now back to the process of taking a water sample to my local Leslies and buying what they tell me I need (Shudder).

One last question: Other than making my e-bill higher, is there a problem running my filter/pump 24/7? If I don't run it 24/7 I tend to forget to turn in on/off everyday.

[rilesworld]

I'm sure others will chime in, but I am new to BBB as well and once you get the terminology and what chemicals do what it all becomes very intuitive.

I will try and answer your questions as best I can:

1) Since you have a Leslies near by, the following is a very good test kit
http://www.lesliespool.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=13142&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=15&iSubCat=128&iProductID=13142

2) The directions for the test kit are pretty straight forward for the kit above, but you have any specific questions then you can post to be sure. As far as whose results are correct, we can't answer that, but I trust my own results over any pool store or strip results.

3) Usually you correct Ph, then Cl, then you can tackle your other numbers.

4) Daily maintenance will vary from person to person, but for me I usually check the filter basket every other day or so depending on the amount of stuff floating in the pool. As your getting your levels adjusted you probably need to test at least once a day. Then once things get balanced you probably can drop this off as you start to get to know your pool requirements.

5) Rust stains can be removed using a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser.

6) Water line can also be cleaned using a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser.

7) I don't do a lot of brushing unless there is algae that needs attending to. I don't get a lot of stuff on the walls though.

8) Yes, you can BBB on a spa.

9) There is nothing wrong with running your pump 24/7 other than the increased electric bill. Just make sure your filter basket stays clean or your pump can lose prime. That's the only problem I can see.

Good luck and ask lots of questions :)

Riles

[tphaggerty]

Using BBB on a spa is a bit more tricky than a pool. "It depends" is really the correct answer. Some of the questions that I would ask before venturing to say "yes" are:

1) Are you currently using chlorine or bromine?
2) How often do you use the spa?
3) How often do you test the spa?
4) Is your spa under warranty and does the warranty require a certain treatment method (for instance, Softubs in the USA normally require using DiChlor to maintain the 5 year warranty).
5) You say it's your wife's spa! Does she maintain it now? How open would she be to changing? Are you having any water problems with the spa now?

Everything in a spa is more touchy because the water is hotter, there is much less of it and the relative bather load is tremendously higher.

I have a 300 gal Softub and am currently using BBB on it. When I do a fresh refill, I use DiChlor to build up some CYA, then switch to bleach. My tub also has a built in ozonator. I switched away from using only DiChlor because the CYA levels build up really quickly, forcing a dump & refill. BUT, I have found it very difficult to keep up the CL levels in the spa using only bleach and have found that the water has a distinct odor and build up of some white, waxy stuff around the fixtures which wasn't (I don't think) occuring with DiChor. On the other hand, the water *seems* more clear and I am running on an old filter that needs replacement. So, for me, the jury is still out with the spa.

[CarlD]

We've written a number of self-helps on this.

Here's another one:

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=3833

[Ohm_Boy]

As for the Magic Eraser suggestion, I'd opt for some other method on your VINYL pool liner... something less abrasive.

[CelticDaddio]

We are using Chlorine (DiChlor)
We use the Spa a couple times a week at the most right now.
I don't test it often enough I am sure. Usually once/week.
The spa is an Artesian spa and we have had it less than one year. I think it is under warranty.

It is my wife's spa. I bought if for her because we bought a new house which did not have a jacuzzi tub. I maintain, or try to maintain, it for her. I think she would be open to change as long as it is ready for her to get into it at any given moment.

We are having two problems on a regular basis: 1) There is a funky smell to the water. It isn't really a bad smell, just odd. Kind of like a plastic smell. Don't know how to describe it. 2) we have little white flakes floating around in the water.

I think if I just start a ritual of daily checking the levels I would be ok without switching to BBB. I just need to make it a habit of checking and weekly shocks.

Ed


Using BBB on a spa is a bit more tricky than a pool. "It depends" is really the correct answer. Some of the questions that I would ask before venturing to say "yes" are:

1) Are you currently using chlorine or bromine?
2) How often do you use the spa?
3) How often do you test the spa?
4) Is your spa under warranty and does the warranty require a certain treatment method (for instance, Softubs in the USA normally require using DiChlor to maintain the 5 year warranty).
5) You say it's your wife's spa! Does she maintain it now? How open would she be to changing? Are you having any water problems with the spa now?

Everything in a spa is more touchy because the water is hotter, there is much less of it and the relative bather load is tremendously higher.

I have a 300 gal Softub and am currently using BBB on it. When I do a fresh refill, I use DiChlor to build up some CYA, then switch to bleach. My tub also has a built in ozonator. I switched away from using only DiChlor because the CYA levels build up really quickly, forcing a dump & refill. BUT, I have found it very difficult to keep up the CL levels in the spa using only bleach and have found that the water has a distinct odor and build up of some white, waxy stuff around the fixtures which wasn't (I don't think) occuring with DiChor. On the other hand, the water *seems* more clear and I am running on an old filter that needs replacement. So, for me, the jury is still out with the spa.

[tphaggerty]

We are using Chlorine (DiChlor)
We are having two problems on a regular basis: 1) There is a funky smell to the water. It isn't really a bad smell, just odd. Kind of like a plastic smell. Don't know how to describe it. 2) we have little white flakes floating around in the water.
Ed

Same 2 problems I am having. For the "white" stuff, check around your fittings (nozzles, filter intake, etc) and see if there is a buildup there. Almost like caulk, but it will come off if you rub it. Sort of greasy, almost like a really, really heavy hand cream. I am getting that in my spa this year, first time I've had it happen. Shocking (with bleach) seems to clear up what is floating in the water, but not what is on the fittings.

And, we are getting a funky smell as well. New this year. Very much like you described, plasticy but not disgusting or rancid. Seems to go way down after the cover has been off for a while, but still noticeable.

So, I am going to do 2 things, as per the manual. First, drain and refill - while using a product called Swirl Away. It is supposed to be a spa cleaner that doesn't foam and cleans out all the pipes etc. My manual says to use it for each fill, but I've never done it yet (partway through year 3 with the spa, probably 5 refills). Plus a good manual scrub down.

Second, I am replacing the filter. That is supposed to be once a year but there is no local source so I have to get it delivered. I have cleaned the filter, but after almost 2 years, I think there are things in there that don't want to get cleaned! Then I'm going to stick with BBB again for at least a while to see how things work out.

I am guessing that BBB really has nothing to do with my problems. I think it is just time to really clean that sucker. The problem with just using DiChlor is that the CYA shoots up very quickly, I had readings over 100+ in less than a month. Per everything I've read, that can severely reduce the effectiveness of the CL.

[chem geek]

With hot tubs there is the additional issue that the bacteria that causes hot tub itch, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, is more resistant to chlorine that most bacteria. I calculated that it would conservatively take 4 ppm FC at 20 ppm CYA to ensure killing this bacteria. That's about one week's usage of Dichlor and then switching to bleach (just keep track of how much Dichlor you are adding and when you've added enough for around 20 ppm or so FC then stop and switch to bleach alone).

The higher disinfecting chlorine level is about 5 times the mid-point in Ben's chart and is equivalent to 0.5 ppm FC if you didn't have any CYA (as opposed to most of Ben's chart which is equivalent to 0.1 ppm FC with no CYA). This higher level should also take care of oxidizing the "white stuff" you are seeing.

To reduce the smell of chlorine when using the hot tub, remove the cover about 5 minutes before you use the tub.

Richard

[CelticDaddio]

Ok... Good info....
Thanks,
Ed


With hot tubs there is the additional issue that the bacteria that causes hot tub itch, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, is more resistant to chlorine that most bacteria. I calculated that it would conservatively take 4 ppm FC at 20 ppm CYA to ensure killing this bacteria. That's about one week's usage of Dichlor and then switching to bleach (just keep track of how much Dichlor you are adding and when you've added enough for around 20 ppm or so FC then stop and switch to bleach alone).

The higher disinfecting chlorine level is about 5 times the mid-point in Ben's chart and is equivalent to 0.5 ppm FC if you didn't have any CYA (as opposed to most of Ben's chart which is equivalent to 0.1 ppm FC with no CYA). This higher level should also take care of oxidizing the "white stuff" you are seeing.

To reduce the smell of chlorine when using the hot tub, remove the cover about 5 minutes before you use the tub.

Richard

[PhantomAndy]

As for the Magic Eraser suggestion, I'd opt for some other method on your VINYL pool liner... something less abrasive.

I'll agree on this - the Magic Eraser is fine for non-painted plastic surfaces (like steps). It is however quite abrasive compared with most cleaning methods. The magic is tiny plastic cells that actually scratch away the dirt, and can over time have a dulling effect on finished surfaces, and remove printing from the vinyl, or the paint from your coping.

SoftScrub w/ Bleach and a non-abrasive scrubbie works great for the waterline in the spring for me.

[chem geek]

With hot tubs there is the additional issue that the bacteria that causes hot tub itch, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, is more resistant to chlorine that most bacteria. I calculated that it would conservatively take 4 ppm FC at 20 ppm CYA to ensure killing this bacteria. That's about one week's usage of Dichlor and then switching to bleach (just keep track of how much Dichlor you are adding and when you've added enough for around 20 ppm or so FC then stop and switch to bleach alone).

The higher disinfecting chlorine level is about 5 times the mid-point in Ben's chart and is equivalent to 0.5 ppm FC if you didn't have any CYA (as opposed to most of Ben's chart which is equivalent to 0.1 ppm FC with no CYA). This higher level should also take care of oxidizing the "white stuff" you are seeing.

To reduce the smell of chlorine when using the hot tub, remove the cover about 5 minutes before you use the tub.

Richard

I forgot to add that with a hot tub you are sometimes fighting Combined Chlorine (CC) because some hot tubs are not exposed to sunlight. If that is your situation and you measure CCs consistently, then the regular (weekly) use of a non-chlorine shock (potassium monopersulfate) will prevent this, but it will also measure as CC itself unless you use the Taylor R-0867 reagent (found in kit K-2041). This same advice also applies to indoor pools where keeping CCs low is difficult.

[tphaggerty]

I forgot to add that with a hot tub you are sometimes fighting Combined Chlorine (CC) because some hot tubs are not exposed to sunlight. If that is your situation and you measure CCs consistently, then the regular (weekly) use of a non-chlorine shock (potassium monopersulfate) will prevent this, but it will also measure as CC itself unless you use the Taylor R-0867 reagent (found in kit K-2041). This same advice also applies to indoor pools where keeping CCs low is difficult.
Richard, I think you have said in the past that shocking/superchlorinating doesn't really breakdown the CC. Is this correct? Is that why you are recommending using non-CL shock as opposed to super-CL?

Would exposing the spa to several hours of sun breakdown the CC? (Not sure I want to add YAC - yet another chemical - to the small amount of water in my spa).

[chem geek]

You can certainly try super-chlorinating to reduce CC, but without sunlight exposure you may find it difficult. So yes, super-chlorinating with the top kept off and exposure to sunlight during peak hours around noontime would be best. The non-chlorine shock suggestion is only a fallback if the "standard" methods of chlorine and sunlight are not available.

Of course, if you're not measuring CCs then you have nothing to worry about anyway. Start by measuring the CC level first, then only if there's a problem (> 0.5 ppm) try options to lower the CCs.

Richard

[simsjim]

This is all VERY helpful info. I learn much here.

I'll chime in on one question - running the pump 24/7.

There is no immediate ill-affect to running 24/7- aside from the excessive use of electricity. Which, personally, I don’t like doing....but just MHO. Also, one could debate that continual running of the motor could shorten the life expectancy of the pump.

You really only need to run the pump long enough to turn all of the water in you pool over once daily. That said, you can use the GPM from your pump’s flow curve to calculate how many gallons your pump moves each hour. Then - given your specific installation - determine how long it takes to turn over the entire pool . Or just take the easy way out, and run it for somewhere between 6-12 hrs/day. I suspect the average is 8 hours/day.

As far as remembering to turn the pump on/off. There is hope. Intermatic makes a series of outdoor timers that are perfect for this chore. Select the one that best suits your needs (there are single circuit models for just pumps, and if you have a heater there are two circuit models that coordinate the controls for each. Prices range from 40-90 bux at Home Depot. Or you can get them from a pool store for $150 . There is also a simple outlet/ plug-in model, but I personally didn’t think it looked robust enough.

More info at about Intermatic timers at http://www.intermatic.com/Default.asp?action=subcat&sid=174&cid=66&did=4

Good luck with the BBB method. I've dabbled in it at spring time to start-up with remarkable success, but always revert back to overpriced pool-specific chemicals as the season goes on. Just me getting confident enough in my own administering of the chemicals. One of these years, I'll take the full plunge and go ALL BBB. The copious testimonies about how successful, easy and inexpensive it is are convincing me its the way to go !

Peace,
James

[tphaggerty]

Update on BBB in spa. I am still using it successfully. Earlier in this thread I had said that I was still getting "white stuff" around the fittings - white and sort of like dry peanut butter in consistency, definitely "growing" over time, plus a somewhat sour smell to the water (very slight). All this was happening with good chems all around, no CCs, good FC/PH/TA.

I tried "shocking" several times to no real avail. I finally tried some Spa Perfect, an enzyme based conditioner. I had stopped using this a while ago when I found this forum as I tried to reduce extraneous chem usage as much as possible. But, I had bought several bottles on sale, so I had it around and decided to give it another try.

Surprise, surprise, it worked GREAT. Not only did it eliminate the "white stuff", the water smells much better (clean and almost odorless) AND the spa just feels cleaner. So, now I am using BBB in the spa with an occasional shot of Spa Perfect.