Indoor, inground, lined, some loss, heres what I plan.

[newbie2715]

OK,

Heres the necessary info, let me know if I missed something.
It is inground, indoor, 12 x 24, four foot deep, no deep end, vinyl lined pool. The liner must be 7 years or so old.

In the winter we shut it down and drain it just below the jets. Its been at basically that level all winter long. We had a couple of cold weeks move through up here in Michigan and I have yet to open the pool. I started filling it two days ago, and did a fair amount each day. Last night I finished filling it up and took a good look at where the water level was on compared to the liner design.

This morning on my way out the door to work it appears to have dropped 3-4 inches! At this point the pump and filter are not even in line as they are shut off from the jets and drains by valves outside.

My assumption is that the leak must not be in the deep end or I would have lost water all winter long, this also seems to rule out the bottom drain to me.

I am assuming its a pin hole or maybe the jets, stairs, skimmer. Reading over this site Al (poconos), and others seem to have all the right ideas... I am probably going to go the route of beets and report back on how that will work.

I will also start to take measurements on the hour after I top it off tonight.

Anything else I should do besides the measurements?

If it is say a jet or skimmer plate are those costly repairs?

Lastly should I open the pump & filter etc before using the dye? At this point my chlorine levels are 0 due to it sitting. I am worried about the potential of staining.

Thanks in advance.

[Poconos]

One inch equates to about 180 gallons so it sounds like you have a good size leak which should be easy to find. I doubt it but I guess there is a possibility that when you filled the added pressure could have caused something to let go deep. You're doing all the right things and looks like you've done your homework. With the dye you have to go really slow to avoid turbulance. When I was hunting down my leak I used a long piece of auto vacuum hose taped to a 1/2 or 3/4" PVC pipe and jury rigged the hose to a garden sprayer full of dye. I'd position the hose end where I wanted, let the currents die off, then give a little squirt of dye. Patience, patience, and more patience. When you get to the leak it will be obvious. You're lucky to only have to work in 4' of water. My leak was 8' down. If it is the liner have you seen my patching technique? If not I'll hunt down the thread.
Good Luck.
Al

[newbie2715]

Al,

I did read your thread on patching and The pictures helped 100%. The auto vacuum hose you are talking about is vacuum line correct? I have been picturing a big vacuum hose similar to used on a home vacuum... it just hit me you are talking vacuum line hose from an engine....

Anyway I did not refill it but have started documenting the loss as it sits now. It is slowing on the loss per hour... So thats a good sign.

What is done if its at the seam of the stairs etc? I imagine a gasket is under there but the whole concept is pretty darn frightening.

[newbie2715]

OK,

So I found it! The bad news is it doesn't look good. I am not sure what happened before I owned the pool or what would have caused this... The liner under the skimmer inlet (rectangle) is apparently tore or just missing.

I am thinking maybe something reacted with the screws, aren't they supposed to be stainless?

Anyway here are a few pictures... Then my questions Please help!

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1933/dscf1055ay8.jpg

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/396/dscf1056nx5.jpg

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/2697/dscf1058qm7.jpg


OK can i just remove that skimmer plate, or will the liner move if I do that? I would hate for the holes to not line up again.

Also if I can patch this, as I have new liner material that matches in my basement... approximately how big of patch do I need to do? And could someone clarify what to patch as in, am I able to double the liner up under the plate or will that cause a leak?

Thanks a bunch in advance.

[Poconos]

Removing the skimmer plate should not cause the liner to move. I had to replace my faceplate a few years ago. The liner should have gone all the way to the throat so it is fully pinched by the faceplate. Yes, the screws should have been stainless. When I replaced my faceplate I did drain to just below the skimmer opening so I could work on it dry. I pulled the liner back from the galvanized steel pool side and squished a bunch of silicone seal between the liner and the wall, then more under the faceplate before screwing it back in place. I can't see where the liner is torn but you could definitely bond a big piece on as a patch.
Hope this helps.
Al

[newbie2715]

Its not necessarily torn but the holes should be visible in the pictures.

Any recommended bonding agent or any since I can do it dry? Do you recommend a square patch or a rounded edge patch? I assume with no sharp corners it would be harder to come back off (if thats even an issue with these patches)

[Sumo1]

Al, the holes are below the skimmer plate. I didn't see them the first time I looked, either.
Hal

[newbie2715]

OK,

So I hit the local pool supply company and purchased some Boxer Brand adhesive. I am planning on removing the plate and rounding out any sharp edges of the tears (to avoid a further rip later).

Then i plan on cutting the extra vinyl and going at least 1 inch larger than any of the "holes".

I plan on letting that sit for a day or two and then cleaning the skimmer plate screws up and getting a new gasket to replace the one that comes off.

I will top off the gasket application with Silicone seal, and reinstall the skimmer plate.

Have I left anything out?



** Also I edited the last pic with Paint to outline the issue!**

[chem geek]

newbie2715,

I have some questions about your pool since I'm trying to figure out when corrosion occurs. Since it's an indoor pool, is there any Cyanuric Acid (CYA) in the pool? Most indoor pools do not have CYA because there is no sunlight, but having chlorine without CYA makes the chlorine far stronger in concentration and potentially corrosive. What is your source of chlorine (bleach, Trichlor, SWG)? What is your typical Free Chlorine (FC) level?

Also, when you remove the screws, look at the screw mounts and see if you can tell if they are made of the same material as the screws.

Thanks,
Richard

[newbie2715]

newbie2715,

I have some questions about your pool since I'm trying to figure out when corrosion occurs. Since it's an indoor pool, is there any Cyanuric Acid (CYA) in the pool? Most indoor pools do not have CYA because there is no sunlight, but having chlorine without CYA makes the chlorine far stronger in concentration and potentially corrosive. What is your source of chlorine (bleach, Trichlor, SWG)? What is your typical Free Chlorine (FC) level?

Also, when you remove the screws, look at the screw mounts and see if you can tell if they are made of the same material as the screws.

Thanks,
Richard

Well I can grab some pictures of the layout for you. It is a larger room 20x40 or there abouts. Cedar lined, and casement windows, with two Sliders surrounding the pool. So in essence there is lots of sunlight, but not anywhere near the level that you would get with an outdoor pool. I don't find that the sun even helps that much in heating the pool.

I use a solar blanket to keep the moisture off my windows during the night, plus to contain heat.

I have not looked at my CYA level before. I have used faith in my local pool shop to tell me what I need. For Chlorine I use a tablet in the skimmer while the pump is running.

During the winter I do shut down the pool and don't treat it. It just frankly costs too much during the winter months to heat and we don't use it enough during that time.

I will look at the mounts.

[Poconos]

Just a note on the Boxer adhesive. If it's Boxer-100 it is very slow acting so do give it a couple days to bond as you stated. The resulting bond is very good though and because of its slow acting characteristics it won't curl the patch as most.
Al

[newbie2715]

Thanks Al,

I will post back in the next day or so.

[newbie2715]

Ok,

Primed the pump and drained the pool below the leak. Removed the skimmer plate and bought new stainless screws.

The Boxer adhesive I have is #700.

The question I have before I go to patch it. What is the best Vinyl to use? I have some leftover white (with background) vinyl that is left over from my stairs being cut out (I presume).

Or should I use a clear vinyl that is sold in the patch kits?

Is one better than the other?

[Poconos]

I'd use the piece that was cut for the steps. I'd also try the bond on a couple small scaps before tackling the liner. Experiment so you know what to expect.
Al

[newbie2715]

Al,

Thanks I prepped the pool liner last night. I figured I would try a few pieces tonight to know before trying it...

The liner must have shrank and pulled the screw holes (under the skimmer plate, causing the leak.

Thinking back I may have had some signs of this last year.

Chem Geek

I checked behind the liner and there is no oxidation or rust going on at all. The screw mounts are harder to tell on material but It appears they are built into the metal wall behind the liner.

I will get before and after pics this weekend and have them up early next week.

Thanks to everyone so far.

[newbie2715]

Well,

I have yet to get pictures. I would like to say that I had let the patch sit for 3 days. Then I went out and touched up any edges that might be suspect.

I let it sit another 2 days.

I then proceeded to find some 100% silicone and clean the skimmer plate off. You can see some rust that developed from the stainless screw heads before I bought the house... I replaced the screws with new stainless screws (exact match found at Home Depot).

I put a layer of silicone between the liner and the pool wall. I then put a bead on the back of the original skimmer plate gasket. I tightened it all down and let it sit another 2 days.... The original skimmer plate gasket was intact and looked good otherwise I would have replaced it.


I filled the pool and measured it over the next 3 days... Its now been full for a week or so with absolutely no loss in water at all. Its heated and balanced and given the location of the patch its not even noticeable unless you are really, really looking, or know of the patch and go feel the area.

I want to say thanks to all of you who helped within this thread and on the other threads I came across. If I remember to get the pictures I will be back to post them.

Thanks
-Josh