Cloudy water in freshly re-filled pool

[lynnybug55]

I have been using the BBB chemical method in my 18,900 gal. rectangular (16 x 32 I think) IG vinyl pool for 2 years with no problems. We replaced our liner about 2 weeks ago and I prmised my husband I would use "pool store" chemicals---he is convinced the bleach caused the demise of our 15-year-old liner. I know better, but you know how THAT goes!
We re-filled with well water and he took a sample to the pool store, and came back with $500 worth of chemicals. I do not have the initial test results with me, but the ph was about 7.0, alkanity was low. Oh, we also replaced the sand in our Heyward 200 filter (also 15 years old).
This is what I did and what happened:
I added one box of Balancepak 100, so far so good.
About an hour later, I added Balancepak 200 and watched a white cloud spread throughout the pool.
I added 1 bottle of oxidizer (the kind you use on a weekly basis-can't remember the name) and watched the cloud turn green.
I put 3 SmartStix in the skimmer. No change.
I tested and the chlorine was at 5, ph up to 8.2, alkalinity 130. I'm out of reagents for the others in my Wal-Mart kit.
I did not install the Vision cartridge since the water was not balanced.
I went to the pool store Saturday and they sold me metal magic (also tried to sell me something to reduce the ph!!!) The Metal Magic removed the green color, but the white cloud remained. I backwashed twice yesterday and added 2 bags Burn Out 35. Still no change.
The weather turned very cold Friday (in the 20's at night, high in mid-50's during the day). Could this be part of the problem? Did some reaction happen between the BP100 and BP200?
The last test results late yesterday were Chlorine at 3 and ph back down to 7.4. I ran out of alkalinity reagent, too. I will pick up refills and re-test tonight.
Any initial ideas?

[CanuckPool]

15 years old! I think that sounds like a good lifespan for a liner. Any more than 10 is gravy.

[dawndenise]

I might try to renegotiate the pool maintenance duties in your family:) .

If you've been maintaining the pool with BBB and it was nice and clean and clear AND saving your family money, then you shouldn't have to change. I'd suggest letting your DH maintain it with the pool store chems if that's what he believes is best;) . Just be sure to get a membership at a local pool or club so you can still swim when things don't work out for him:D :D :D.

[lynnybug55]

Yeah, 15 years is definitely not typical. I'm so used to my easily maintained pool, that I am totally lost with this fresh water and pool store chemical deal. When I use up all the stuff he bought, I'm going back to BBB!
For now, though, does anyone have any ideas about the white cloud? Is the water maybe just too cold to dissolve it all?
Any help would be appreciated!

[chem geek]

BalancePak 100 raises Total Alkalinity (TA) and is just sodium bicarbonate, aka sodium hydrogen carbonate, EXACTLY the same as Arm & Hammer Baking Soda. It comes in 4 pound and 12 pound containers.

BalancePak 200 raises pH and TA and is just sodium carbonate (aka soda ash), EXACTLY the same as Arm & Hammer Washing Soda. It comes in 2 pound and 6 pound containers.

Since most products appear to be BioGuard brand, I assume the weekly oxidizer is Smart Shock which is 63% Dichlor with a very small amount of metallic copper (probably to be used as an alagecide). This comes in 1 pound and 2 pound bags and in 25 pound buckets. [EDIT] It actually contains 39% copper citrate, so has lots of copper ion. [END-EDIT]

The Smart Sticks are just Trichlor but formulated in a way to not dissolve readily unless there is water flow so they are (in theory) safe to put into the skimmer.

The Burn Out 35 is 29% Lithium Hypochlorite (a very expensive source of chlorine), 19% sodium and potassium sulfate, 9% of various Lithium Chloride, Carbonate, Chlorate and Hydroxide. Essentially, this is just very expensive chlorine.

The Metal Magic sounds like it is from ProTeam and this is 30% diphosphonic acid plus other (proprietary) ingredients.

The Vision Cartridge is usually used in spas, not pools, but it is essentially just silver that is an alternative, though somewhat slow, disinfectant against bacteria. In other words, it's a very expensive waste of money.

So here's what I think happened. One box of Balance Pak 100, if it was the 4 pound box would raise your TA by 15 ppm. If you used the 12 pound box, then this would raise your TA by 45 ppm. Your pool store said your TA was low, but they could of course have been very wrong about that. Your pH would also rise somewhat (perhaps about 0.2, though that depends on your true starting TA).

Next you added Balance Pak 200 though you did not say how much. If you added a 2 pound container, then assuming a TA level of 100 (and CYA of 30), this would raise the pH by 0.3 to go from around 7.2 to 7.5. If you added the 6 pound container, then your pH would go from around 7.2 to 8.4. Your TA would also increase in this latter case by over 35 ppm. I'll bet the pool store didn't realize that the use of Balance Pak 200 would raise the TA as well as the pH.

The water turned cloudy because you increased the TA and pH too high to 130 ppm for TA and 8.2 for pH via both the Balance Pak 100 and the Balance Pak 200 -- both increase both TA and pH though the 100 increases TA more while the 200 increases both pH and TA. Your resulting numbers of a pH of 8.2 and a TA of 130 along with a presumed Calcium Hardness of 300 (which is unusual for a vinyl pool) mean that your pool is way over-saturated with calcium carbonate (the saturation index is +0.8) which is making your water cloudy. The solution to this is simple. Simply add 46 ounces (5 cups, 6 ounces) of Muriatic Acid to your pool which will lower the pH to 7.5 and will also lower the TA to 120. Though this TA is still on the high side, your using Trichlor is quite acidic so this is OK (though read on since you need to test your CYA). Your resulting saturation index will then be +0.1 which is fine (however, keep reading since you said your pH came down to 7.4 -- possibly due to the Smart Sticks -- you do not need to add any acid as I indicated above).

Your addition of the presumed Smart Shock oxidizer caused the water to turn green because the copper in this product precipitated out of solution (possibly as copper carbonate which is blue-green) due to the higher level of carbonate ion due to the high pH and TA. It also adds chlorine and CYA to your water.

Your addition of Smart Stix simply adds Trichlor which adds chlorine and CYA to your water. It is an acidic source of chlorine that would slightly help reduce the cloudiness through lowering of pH. It certainly isn't the best way to lower pH.

The Metal Magic got rid of the copper color by binding with copper ions in the water (causing the copper carbonate to dissolve some more), but such copper is still in your water and can only be removed (eventually) through drain and refill. In the meantime, it is being sequestered by these phosphonates. The downside is that the phosphorous in such compounds makes great food for algae (though the copper inhibits algae -- I guess it's sort of a poisoned meal).

Your addition of Burn Out 35 would do nothing since this is just like adding chlorine from bleach. If anything, in the short run, it increases pH until the chlorine gets used up and this would just make the water even cloudier and precipitate even more copper carbonate.

Since now your pH is back down to 7.4, you would normally not be seeing any cloudiness in the water unless your TA and CH are too high. You need to test for both of these and also need a little bit of patience as the cloudiness takes some time to dissipate as your water turns over in your pool and all these chemicals mix together and equilibrate.

Be sure to test your CYA level since you've been adding lots of it via the Smart Shock oxidizer (which is mostly Dichlor) and the Smart Sticks (which are essentially Trichlor). You should try and switch to BBB after you get all the chemistry sorted out.

The main lesson here is to avoid getting pool-stored and take charge of your pool's water by testing it and adding only what is needed, one thing at a time.

If you don't mind, I'd like to use your particular story in my communications with Chemtura who bought Bio-Lab that makes BioGuard and SpaGuard products. Your example is a good one of what typically happens from pool stores who don't understand the chemistry of what goes on and just throw products at a problem in trying to fix it. Let me know if that's all right. I can refer them to your post or copy the info separately in an E-mail.

Richard

P.S.
If bleach were truly the reason for weakened vinyl, then you should see a definite fading wherever you pour bleach since it should fade the color in vinyl (in a pattern where you pour the bleach) long before it starts to weaken its structure. If you pour bleach slowly over a return with the pump running, it won't be concentrated enough to do any harm. Acid conditions are far harsher to vinyl than bleach, as far as stretching and wrinkling are concerned, so using Trichlor in a floating feeder would not be good. At least the Smart Sticks are designed to not dissolve without water flow (I don't know how effective they are at doing it) so a buildup of high chlorine and acidic conditions should be avoided (and they are in the skimmer rather than floating around parking themselves near the vinyl).

[CanuckPool]

All hail the chem-god... all hail the chem-god

[nater]

Lynnybug55,
Wow, I feel your pain! About 2 years ago, I was like your husband. Bought a house with a pool, quickly turned to the "experts" at the local pool store. After all, its what they do for a living, they wouldn't possibly stear me wrong right? Well, after a summer of spending more money than I care to admit only to swim in a cloudy/green/smelly pool, I gave up. (I've spent less $ on my SWC and Robotic cleaner than I did on Chemicals that season) I turned to the Internet and discovered the magic of SWC systems. Bought one on Ebay, then stumbled across this site while searching for information on how to hook it up.

Long story short, my pool has been crystal clear since then :) Luckily, it sounds like YOU already knew that. I suggest you go on a nice shopping spree, spend $500 on yourself, then take control of the pool maintenance again. Tell him that every time he goes to the pool store, you go to the mall ;)

PS, my parents got 17 years out of a vinyl liner, his pool guy told him it was the longest he'd seen one last in a long time. You should be proud of your 15 year liner! Good luck...

[lynnybug55]

Yes, by all means...PLEASE use this as an example. We have friend and family connections to the pool store owners and I expected real help when I went in Saturday. I very carefully explained exactly what I did and what happened. They tested my sample and immediately proceeded to try to sell more chemicals (not the ones that would actually do any good). They had no idea how the chemicals reacted with the water or each other, or even what they do or how they work. Pool store employees should be thoroughly trained in basic chemistry before they are allowed to advise the public!!! I feel a tirade coming on. And, what ever happened to good old fashioned Customer Service?
I also visited the Bio-Guard website for help and it offers no real help, either.
I do have more questions, but I will test before I post them. Thank you so much for your help and advice. This forum is the best!!

[lynnybug55]

Richard,
Here are my numbers. You probably need to know our well water is very "hard" and hardness reading is typically 300-400 and has been over 500 in the past.
Pool Store test results when water was green and cloudy:
Saturation Index .5
CYA 10
FC 5.5
TC 5.5
Ph 7.8
TA 127
Hardness 357
My numbers 2 days later when water was white and cloudy (after metal magic):
FC 4
TC 4
ph 7.4
TA 110
Pool store #'s yesterday (water clearer but still hazy with white residue on the bottom of pool)
Sat. index .1 (I guess it all settled to the bottom)
CYA 10
TC 1.7
FC 1.7
ph 7.6
TA 99 (??)
Hardness 334

I plan to try to vaccuum the residue to waste- good or bad idea? Do I need to add Baking soda to raise the TA, or leave it as it is for now?
Thanks for all your help!!

[chem geek]

The white stuff at the bottom of the pool is probably calcium carbonate that precipitated so yes, you can vacuum that to waste. You are right that some of that settled down out of the water. Your water should start to clear up since your water is closer to being in balance now IF the pool store's numbers are correct. You do not need to raise your TA at all and in fact should probably keep it on the low side to avoid the cloudiness and can keep your pH lower as well.

With the pool store numbers of a pH of 7.8, TA of 127, CYA of 10, and CH of 357, I get a saturation index of 0.3, not 0.5, so I don't know how they are doing their calculations. With the later numbers of pH 7.6, TA 99, CYA 10, CH 334, I get a saturation index of 0.2, not 0.1.

If you want to add some acid to get the pH down around 7.2, that should speed up getting rid of the cloudiness (see below about using Smart Sticks instead), but it's not necessary if you're willing to wait. Lowering the pH will help reduce the TA a little bit as well -- especially if you aerate.

Get your chlorine back up which you can do easily using the Burn Out 35 or the Smart Sticks or both (not mixed together, but the sticks in the skimmer and the Burn Out 35 in the pool). Since your CYA is low (again, if we believe your pool store), then using a chlorine source that provides CYA, such as Smart Sticks, is fine to use (note that it will lower pH so you can use those instead of adding acid as I mentioned above).

Richard