fill water TA 500!! Richard, Carl, Evan, Al help!!!

[induce]

getting ready to fill the new pool. i thought i would check the fill water. now this is well water going thru a softener. it is our only choice.

holy smokes!!
ph 7.6
fc 2.0
ta 500
ch 40
water temp prob 60f or colder.

tested it 3 times. i've been a long time user of this forum and i'm stumped. this is our 2nd pool and i feel i kinda know how to test water. i tested this with a new taylor k-2006 kit as my kit from ben is gone. (by the way....i've been waiting for the new one since 8/06...)
anyway, Richard, Evan, Carl, Al.........HELP!!!

should i bypass the softener?

thanks,
Bruce

[induce]

update: fill water.
bypassed the softener.....
ph 7.0 off scale looks maybe like 6.8 or 6.9
fc 6.0
ta 390
ch 300
which is better???? i was hoping to use the softener to help catch any metals before they got to the pool.

on a good note, i should have "city water" here by July. so hopefully only the first fill and a few top-offs to battle.

[chem geek]

First, why is there Free Chlorine in your fill water -- 2 ppm after the water softener and 6 ppm before? It sounded like you are getting the water from a well, but is it from some other local source or are you chlorinating it?

Second, the difference in TA between your two measurements is completely explained by the difference in pH. A pH of 7.6 with a TA of 500 is identical to a pH of 6.87 with a TA of 390 in terms of having the same amount of total carbonate in the water. So in essence, your water softener is ONLY substituting the calcium (and magnesium) in the water with sodium and/or potassium. It isn't changing your carbonate.

I don't quite understand why your water softener has raised the pH of the water. Your pre-to-post numbers are consistent with having 7.3 pounds of caustic soda / lye / sodium hydroxide added per 10,000 gallons.

As for which is better, the decision should really be based solely on the difference in calcium hardness and other benefits such as removal of metals. If there are indeed metals in the water, then using the post-water-softener would be best. If not and if you have a plaster pool, then using the pre-water-softener will get you the CH you need without having to add any calcium chloride (for a vinyl pool you won't need as much calcium).

Either way, you are going to have a heck of a fun time getting your TA lowered. The good news is that aeration will rather quickly outgas carbon dioxide so it won't take long to get the TA down, though it will take a LOT of acid, about 93 cups of Muriatic Acid per 10,000 gallons (over an extended period of time while aerating and keeping the pH low around 7.0 until your TA reaches 100 and then continuing to aerate without adding acid to let the pH get up to 7.5).

Richard

[CarlD]

Do you also have an acid neutralizer? That is a common setup with well water to have have both the softener and the neutralizer--it's a second smaller tank. And, with well water's pH of less than 7.0, it's VERY likely, because otherwise, over time, the acidity will weaken the pipes in your house.

If so, that answers Chem_Geek's question right there.

Either way, unless you bring in other water, you wil have to do a lot of the T/A reduction. Be VERY careful not to add ANY calcium until T/A is in the proper 80-125 range for nomal pH or your water could go cloudy.

[induce]

thanks guys!!

richard, as you know, the softener does indeed add salt, and yes i am adding chlorine to the water via injector. the reason the 2nd sample is higher is that the softener has a weak (old) carbon filter inline.
So use the softened water, fix the pH, aerate, fix the pH, aerate and repeat until the TA is 80-90 and then let the pH come up (aerating) until 7.3-7.5 ?
thanks carl, but there is no acid tank used. there are holding tanks that allow the sulfur to precipate out by reaction with the chlorine. the tanks are flushed monthly (from the bottom to let the precip out).
This is a 22-25k salt ig vinyl pool.
you know, on my old pool, the pb used proteam supreme. I read evan's borate experiment, any update? I was thinking of using the borate again. thought's ?

[JohnT]

I can speak from experience on the high alkalinity fill water. My well water is over 400 TA. I hauled in 15,000 gallons initially, but it was from a town well and had a TA of 280. The best advice I can give is that rainwater is your friend. Go for a mesh winter cover so you collect all of the rain over the off-season. Follow the advice about maintaining a low pH and aerating. I was able to get mine into a reasonable range (180 when I closed last fall) without much stress.

[waterbear]

I don't think the borates will do much good in terms of pH and acid use unless you can get the TA down into a more 'normal' range. It should give you the algaestatic benefits, however.

[aquarium]

I'd think that if the softener is sized for normal use based on the number of plumbing fixtures in the house, that it won't be able to keep up with a pool fill so you'll be back to mostly straight well water anyway.

[CanuckPool]

would a partial water dump and water refill from a trucked in source be a better option than going through the effort of bringing the alk down that far?

[induce]

i've looked everywhere for a water hauler. private, firehouses, even the local milk haulers. no luck except for my neighbor who has a construction company and hauls water 3000 gal at a time for construction projects. He said he would be glad to do it. "oh yeah, my truck's kinda old, does it matter if the water has a lot of rust in it"?

my pb is bringing a polaris plug in fountain. hello aeration!

[aquarium]

Yeah, the aeration method is not that difficult to do. Our fill water starts at about 300ppm TA. I built this screw-in jet to take it down:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b113/tomwood2/pools/fountainpipe.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b113/tomwood2/pools/fountainwater.jpg

[CanuckPool]

I was just about to mention that someone on this forum had made one of those!!

[CarlD]

I found a sprayer for $20 that screws into the return eye and has a whole fan it sprays. The few times I've needed to lower T/A it worked GREAT.

[Skillset]

Carl - Can you share with us where you got the $20 piece?

[CarlD]

Carl - Can you share with us where you got the $20 piece?

Branch Brook pools, here in NJ has it.

B/B is now part of Namco so they may have it too.

[karrde97]

I filled my 21' AG pool last summer from a 300' well. I bought Ben's kit and tested. My TA was over 600. I followed the aeration steps outlined here and got it down to the recommended level. I just turned my return eye up so it was pushing the surface causing bubbles. Make sure you have a good supply of muriatic acid.

I didn't think it was that bad of a procedure. It just takes awhile.

Remember: PATIENCE!!

I'm learning a lot of it right now clearing my water up.

Kevin