A bit confused

[Cal_Newbie]

Tested the water on a new AG pool, no additives had been given yet.

Can someone give me an idea as to what would be an acceptable starting point for BBB on a 12x24x54 AG pool? We would like to get this going right from the start.

[CarlD]

AG means vinyl.

1) GET A GOOD TEST KIT! We recommend either Ben's PS234 (currently unavailable) or the Taylor K-2006 or K-2006C, or the Leslie's FAS-DPD Chlorine Service Test Kit. They are all basically the same--the Leslie's may be the easiest to order and is simply a re-badged Taylor. From a donut inflatable to the fanciest infinite edge this kit will be the BEST investment you make in pool care.

2) pH--aim for 7.3-7.8 with 7.5 or 7.6 as your target. Raise pH with 20 Mule Team Borax or Washing Soda (not Baking Soda). Lower pH by adding Muriatic Acid--dilute it into a 5 gal bucket first and wear goggles and gloves--and don't breathe the fumes.

3) Now shock your water by raising Free Chlorine to 10ppm--this is just a good generic startup.
1 gallon of regular 5.25 % laundry bleach adds 5.25 ppm of free chlorine to 10,000 gallons of water.

3/4 gallon of regular Ultra Bleach at 6% adds 4.5 ppm of free chlorine to 10,000 gallons of water and 1 gallon of it adds 6ppm to 10,000 gallons.

Those are the rules of thumb for estimating how much chlorine you should use.

4) Now you need to adjust your Total Alkalinity (T/A). You can either add Baking Soda or Washing Soda to raise T/A. But you ONLY use Washing Soda if you are raising pH as well. Otherwise stick to baking soda. I never add more than a pound at a time. There's some discussion about the ideal range, which is 80 to 125ppm, and whether you should be low (Chem_Geek likes 80 to 90) or higher (Me...I like the 100 to 125). Further, in a vinyl pool you can go as high as 180ppm without worries. However, if you have a heater (other than solar) you should follow the manufacturer's requirements for both T/A and Calcium Hardness--they do interact. If T/A is too high, find the stickied thread on how to lower it--PoolDoc is the author of that one.

5) Stabilizer or CYA or Cyanuric Acid. This prevents your chlorine from being consumed too fast by the sun or other contaminants. It's a double edged sword so too much is a big problem. I like 30ppm in the spring and then moving to 40-50ppm as the intense heat of summer shows up. You buy it at a pool store and it takes 48 hours to a week to dissolve. I like to recommend that you use 1/4 to 1/3 of the amount you estimate you need to reach your target--adding more is easy, getting it out is tough

6) Now keep your Free Chlorine at the levels suggested in the Best Guess table for various levels of stabilizer.

Alternative ways to get your water to correct levels.

1) Tri-Chlor Tablets. These are VERY acidic and will lower too-high pH nicely. They add chlorine and stabilizer and will increase your CYA levels quickly. When you hit your target, stop using them. You can raise pH in the meantime with Borax. Pucks are REALLY good for new concrete pools because as the concrete/plaster cures it makes the water very basic and the tabs lower that while adding CYA.

2) Di-Chlor Powder. This is similar to Tri-chlor but it doesn't tend to lower pH nearly as much. I actully prefer to use Di-Chlor when I want to raise my CYA levels as I get to add the chlorine with it.

Notice I didn't talk about calcium hardness, TDS (total dissolved solids) or phosphates. None of these matter to you DESPITE what the clerks in the pool stores say. With a vinyl pool, you only need to test calcium once or twice a summer, just to make sure it isn't too high.

TDS is BS as is phosphates. You ONLY worry about these when ALL other options are exhausted. 99.99% of the time people who worry about TDS and Phosphates are wasting their time (the 10,000th guy is the only one who actually has a problem with them).

[Cal_Newbie]

Carl, Thank You....I have a good kit, not the one sold here (sold out, grrrrrrrr) but, one that was recommended as being quite alike, the Taylor. I had to add 8 drops to get the PH into range, so it appears I shall be hunting down the Tri-Chlor tabs this a.m. Muriatic Acid I shall get also, is there a rule of of thumb with regard to how much acid to use? I ask because I do not want to add too much at one time...

Thank You.

[CanuckPool]

Hey CarlD, did you mention what the best Alk range is? and where to look if the alk is too high?

[Watermom]

In a pool your size (approximately 9,000 gallons) adding about a cup of muriatic acid should lower your ph by about 0.2. It is better to add small increments of things instead of trying to do it all in one large dose to make sure you don't overshoot your target. So, I would only add one cup of acid at a time and as my pal, Carl, said above -- take precautions with the stuff.

For alk, a range of 80-125 is a good target. You can raise alk by using baking soda as explained above. If your alk is too high, check the sticky at the top of the alk forum for the method recommended to lower it.

[CarlD]

Hey CarlD, did you mention what the best Alk range is? and where to look if the alk is too high?


Of COURSE I did! Just go re-read it.:rolleyes: :mad: ;) (not like I edited it or anything...:D )

[CanuckPool]

oh yea, my eyes are a failing!

[Cal_Newbie]

Thanks folks...this is not as bad as I expected. I will post up my water test this a.m. before I do the Super Shock.

Bob-

[Cal_Newbie]

PH= 7.6
FC= 6
CC= 1
TA= 290
Calcium was way low, below 100
CYA:40

[CarlD]

PH= 7.6
FC= 6
CC= 1
TA= 290
Calcium was way low, below 100
CYA:40

In order of importance:

1) OK, you have CC, that means you need to shock your pool, all the way up to 15, then see if the CC vanishes. This is the most important task.

2) Next, your T/A is WAY too high--you need it between 80 and 180ppm and absolutely NO higher than 200. So you'll need to lower your pH to between 7.0 and 7.0 and aerate your water (see the stickied thread on lowering T/A.

3) You have a vinyl pool. Calcium is virtually irrelevant unless it goes over 500. You should NOT worry about nor attempt to increase your calcium level, and I don't care WHAT some guy in a pool store says about you needing it. If you don't have a heater, you don't need calcium. Period. Yet he will swear on his saintly mother's head you need calcium. He's STILL wrong.

[Cal_Newbie]

my mistake, calcium is 240

I will hit the CC in the a.m. to 15 ppm, how long shall I wait until I check its CC?

Yes, the T/A is too high, I have the pool return eye pointing upwards so that I have a very strong splash across the pool, very strong surface movement.
Shall the CC be done totally before the T/A or can this be done in relative time to one another?

Lastly, I do not trust the store..I trust only this forum.

Thank You Carl... :)

Bob-

[Watermom]

You can work on both at the same time, but getting rid of the CC is more important.

You want to hit the FC to 15, not the CC. You want the CC to be 0. (It was probably just a typo.) Just check the CC once a day. Plus, you'll also be able to tell because your chlorine demand should drop pretty significantly once you aren't fighting something in your water. Keep us posted on your progress.

[Cal_Newbie]

eeeeeeeeeek.......not having fun here.

OK, get the CC to 15ppm...no problem. Get FC to 0, ok. I need to get the Alkaline below 200, so adding acid in small amounts and bubble the water will work that down.... how often shall I check on this process?

[CarlD]

eeeeeeeeeek.......not having fun here.

OK, get the CC to 15ppm...no problem. Get FC to 0, ok. I need to get the Alkaline below 200, so adding acid in small amounts and bubble the water will work that down.... how often shall I check on this process?

You STILL have it backwards: CC is Combined Chloramines...you want THAT at 0. FC is Free Chlorine, the good stuff--free to attack any NEW contaminants. You want THAT at 15. You raise FC by adding chlorine or bleach. There is no way (or reason) to raise CC.

Lowering alkalinity is a simpler process than it sounds if when you know what the steps do. Add the acid to lower pH to 7.0 to 7.2. DON'T GUESS! Below 6.9 will damage vinyl, above 7.2 won't work.

Now, when you lower pH, it pulls the T/A down with it. The bubbling (aerating actually) is the ONLY way to raise pH without raising the T/A as well.

Then, when pH is back over 7.2 (anything from 7.3 on up) you add acid again to lower pH BACK to 7.0 to 7.2 and keep bubbling!

I would check pH a couple of times a day, but I would only check T/A once a day (like about every 2 acid cycles). That's merely a guess and a suggestion. You can measure them both more as long as your test chems hold out.

Don't worry about T/A going too low. From 240 to below 80 will take several days. Besides, lowering T/A is a pain, but there's NOTHING to raising it! Just add some baking soda--regular Arm&Hammer.

When your T/A is good (and I would NOT stop at 200, I would go to a much lower level) you can then raise pH where you want it by adding Borax --20 Mule Team Borax.

[Cal_Newbie]

roflmao....I am so sorry Carl, vicoden and pool chemistry are bad, bad, bad combo...had shoulder surgery so I am a bit out of the loop still. Got it, FC, FC, FC.... heads a bit clearer this morning........again, I apologize but I did get a good laugh.. now where is my power saws??

Bob-

[Cal_Newbie]

OK, so it has been a number of days while I have been working the PH down with acid and I am in the range I need to be, 7.0-7.2.

Should not the TA be down also? I inquire because my TA is at 250ppm. I used my Taylor Kit at the 10ml mark, added the drops accordingly to the directions annd it took 10 drops to go from green to red and multiply x 25 = 250ppm.

What gives? Do I need to take it lower still, the PH that is? I realize that below 7.0 there is significant problems on a vinyl..so please direct me as to what to do next. I thought I had this doggy whipped...

Bob-

[chem geek]

Bob,

To lower your TA follow Ben's Lowering Your Alkalinity (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=191) procedure precisely. You are already at the low pH so you need to aerate your water in any way that you can -- point jets upwards, run waterfalls or other features that would aerate the water, put in a recirculation pump and hose that splashes into the water, get an air compressor and put a nozzle at the end of the hose that creates tiny bubbles and put this into the deep end of the pool, have a bunch of kids (or fun adults!) over splashing in the pool, etc.

As you aerate, the pH will rise so you'll need to add acid to keep it in the 7.0 to 7.2 range. After a while of doing this, measure the TA level and when it gets to where you want it (probably under 100 ppm), then you stop adding the acid and just let the pH go up to where you want it (probably around 7.5).

Richard

[Cal_Newbie]

Richard,

So even where my TA is at this time, I can go ahead and aerate? That I can handle. How often shall I test the water PH?

Thank You,

Bob-

[chem geek]

Bob,

I'm not sure what you mean by "even where the TA is at this time" since your TA is definitely too high. You can most definitely aerate. As far as how frequently to check pH, I can't tell you that because it really depends on how effective your aeration is. Just test it after a few hours and if it's not changing very much you can check on it less frequently, but when it goes up measurably (say, from 7.2 to 7.4) you can add acid to bring it back down. I assume you may have an acid demand test to tell you how much acid to add, but I can give you a rough idea BUT it depends on your TA level so as the TA gets lowered it will take less and less acid to bring the pH back down from 7.4 to 7.2. If your pH test reliably tests down to 6.8, then you can use 7.0 as your target or 7.1 which would be in between the 7.0 and 7.2 colors on your test. The point is that this process is more effective at lower pH, but don't worry that being right near 7.0 is going to somehow destroy your vinyl -- it won't. You just don't want it to get much below 7.0, that's all, so using 7.0 or 7.1 as your "target" during this process is fine.

As an example for your 9600 gallon pool, when the TA is at 250 ppm it takes 26 ounces or 3 cups 2 ounces of Muriatic Acid to go from a pH of 7.4 to 7.2 (43 ounces or 5 cups 3 ounces to go from a pH of 7.4 to 7.1).

For comparison, at a TA of 150 ppm it takes 16 ounces or 2 cups to go from a pH of 7.4 to 7.2 (27 ounces or 3 cups 3 ounces to go from a pH of 7.4 to 7.1).

For technical reasons it takes less acid to lower the pH in a higher pH range than in a lower pH range, so trying to get to a much lower pH gets progressively harder -- kind of like pulling on a spring. That's why the amount of acid to get to 7.1 compared to 7.2 seems to be more than one might expect.

Richard

[gonefishin]

Hi there :)

Just be sure to stick with the procedure that the others are describing. I had to bring my TA down last year and this process does work. But you need to be patient...and you need to follow the instructions. While your going thru the process think of it as if your just chipping away at the TA a little at a time by bringing down the ph...then aerate...measure measure. Bring down the ph...while still aerating...measure measure. Bring down the ph...you get the idea ;)

Just stick with it! it does work.


Are your (bad) Combined Chlorimines gone yet?


stick with it!
dan

[CarlD]

Shoulder surgery? Ouch! That hits me where I live! Three years ago at this time I was recovering from a motorcycle accident where my shoulder was dislocated--very badly. I have NO idea how I avoided surgery other than a very, very astute orthopedist whose prompt actions and un-orthodox casting allowed it to heal naturally. Didn't sleep more than an hour at a time for months, and my wife never knew where she'd find me in the morning--where-ever I could fall asleep next.

The doc sent me to P/T as well and THAT was as important as his actions. 6 months of grueling P/T, but it worked. I always say attack P/T like it's an enemy. I'm not super-agressive, but I saw that the harder I worked, the better my chances of recovery.

Lowering total alkalinity is VERY confusing. Let me try to clear it up.

1) T/A and pH are linked. As pH goes up or down, so does T/A.

2) There are very few ways to move either T/A or pH MORE than the other.

We can raise T/A more than pH by adding baking soda. We can raise pH more than T/A by aerating.

That's it.

3) But we can ONLY raise pH via aeration when pH is 7.2 or less.

4) So we LOWER pH to 7.0-7.2, which pulls T/A down (see 1) again). We don't go lower than 7.0 because below 6.9 vinyl can be damaged. Concrete/Plaster/Gunite is not as sensitive to pH.

5) We then aerate which raises pH WITHOUT raising T/A--it's the ONLY way to do it. (Why does this work? Ask Chem_Geek--he's the BEST at explaining it)

6) We then repeat 4) and 5) again and again until T/A is where we want it.

Once you understand which action does what, it makes a lot more sense. Aeration does NOT lower T/A--that's frequently mis-understood--it's dropping pH to 7.0-7.2 that does it. Aeration raises pH without raising T/A.

[Cal_Newbie]

OK, definitely understanding this stuff and yes, it is difficult to get it down as the pH range gets closer.

I have my return eye pointing virtually straight up and it creates a serious amount of splash, to the point it splashes out all sides of the pool...so that is sufficient.

I had to go out of town and of course, no one followed my directions and so I went from a pH of 7.2 and arrived home to an 8.0.GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

So back to the beginning and I will get this TA down yet.

Shoulder? 4 tears averaging 4-5mm each, acromium bone removal, socket enlargement and bicep muscle reattachment...fun, fun, fun. Actually rather have surgery again than deal with this flippant TA!!!!

Bob-

[CarlD]

Shoulder? 4 tears averaging 4-5mm each, acromium bone removal, socket enlargement and bicep muscle reattachment...fun, fun, fun. Actually rather have surgery again than deal with this flippant TA!!!!

Bob-

Bob:
Wow! Dealing with lowering T/A should definitely NOT hurt as much as your shoulder! How DID you do that? I crashed a motorcycle--first time since 1978 I had gone down hard. The bike was fixed and trouble free faster than I was--and at a far lower cost, too!

Of course, getting someone to follow directions while you are out of town can be tough...luckily I've never had to SOLVE a problem while away, and I have a fairly good system for having a "helper" care for my pool while I'm away:

Every 2 days dump in 1/2 gallon of bleach. That usually leaves me JUST FINE for up to 2 weeks. The ONLY hitch was I asked my father-in-law to save the gallon jugs as I was refilling them from two carboys--one with 12.5% LC and the other with water, to get me 6% LC.

Naturally he recycled all the empty jugs...into the town's Recycling...:rolleyes:

[Cal_Newbie]

Now I have Carl pittying me!!!:p

Did it xmas eve, middle of the night. I am a pro Firefighter/Medic and had a drunk guy that got pounded well by his friends..nice guys. He was behind a house with a million broken down cars and I had to put him on a backboard due to Mr. Liability and low-and-behold... no way to get him between the cars...way too narrow. So everyone starts to whine and no one wants to do anything but complain, so I grabbed the board and drug his butt up and over about 4 cars. When I got to the other side and started to lower...POP! Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice, thank you Santa. Then I garnered a wonderful butt-chewing for performing an unsafe act upon myself...wtf? Lazy crew did not want to lift, ambulance cried and complained and no way out except that.... so I did what every good subordinate does, throw his supervisor under the bus....hey, he could not make up his mind, my firefighter was a on probation so he was worthless, I hate sitting around roasting marsh mellows and took the initiative.

PT is going fine, life sucks after all those good drugs they used for a block wore off. So I have been one arm building my deck and fence and post hole digging... tis the life of Bob.....have 3 boys but will they help dear old dad....ROFLMAO!!!!! Worst part is you cannot sleep, the shoulder just nags, nags, nags like a mother-in-law..then Workers Comp had me wait it out for 3.5 months... but I did have a great surgeon.

OK, back to what is truly my pain.....pH. Mr. pH is down again to 7.0 and TA has dumped to 190...YEAH!!!!

So I keep on turning the water heavily... check the pH and keep it down until my TA gets to what? 150-170ppm?

So I will need to shock the pool when my pH rises back up into the acceptable range and my TA is basically where it is at or a bit lower?? Shocking will involve 2 gallons of bleach to get me into my range for shock. Pheeeeeeeeeew. Think I will go run my 110# jack hammer to alleviate my pool chemistry nightmare...where is my vicoden?

Bob-

[chem geek]

Carl and I disagree a little on the ideal TA, but when using BBB I say to shoot for 80 ppm if you want to avoid pH rise while Carl says 100. I think either is fine and is wholly dependent on the amount of aeration there is in your pool. It also depends on your final target pH -- if it's higher, you get less of a tendency for pH to rise.

So pick whatever target you want, say 100, and just see how it goes. If you find that you are adding more acid than you would like to keep the pH at your target of, say, 7.5, then you can always lower the TA some more or can choose a higher target of 7.7 or so.

And re your shoulder and circumstances -- you're a hero and I'm sorry that fear paralyzed some of your partners, but am mostly sorry that you got hurt. Certainly, making your pool a bigger frustration will lessen your (real) pain. ;)

Richard

[Cal_Newbie]

Damn, thought I was getting out of this mess easy..ok, this will require beer and vicoden for synergistic deep thinking.

Richard, so I keep adding the acid while maintaining my ph in the low range until my TA is at 100 or below... got it.

[CarlD]

"PT is going fine, life sucks after all those good drugs they used for a block wore off. So I have been one arm building my deck and fence and post hole digging... tis the life of Bob.....have 3 boys but will they help dear old dad....ROFLMAO!!!!! Worst part is you cannot sleep, the shoulder just nags, nags, nags like a mother-in-law.."

Ohhhh...I feel your pain!!!! My shoulder ACHES just remembering it! Been there, done that, keep the d*** tee-shirt! I rebuilt the MC with one hand tied behind my back--well, actually in a brace. And I did it left-handed--and I'm not left-handed! I even learned to write left-handed. My older boy was learning cursive so we learned together. It was really weird--my hand-writing with my left was COMPLETELY different than my right--like a different person. I guess because all the muscles are moving in the opposite direction. The worst IS sleeping...

Yeah, Richard and I disagree on the IDEAL T/A but we both agree it's a minor issue--more a matter of preference than anything.

Try testing the T/A on your fill water--you may get an unpleasant surprise. A few years ago my town's tap water came with a T/A of 170ppm.

[Cal_Newbie]

All righty then................

Pool is now at 90ppm TA...YIPPEEEEEEEE
pH is now at 7.0................................

Pool is still aerating and continue to do so until the pH is in the 7.4-7.6 range.. correct?

Then I can shock the pool and add in the CYA... from there, I need to keep my chlorine level at ??????

CYA, what would you guesstimate for a nice, hot, sunny California pool?

Bob-

[chem geek]

Yup, you got it. Aerate until you get to around the 7.5 pH that you want. Add CYA to around 30 ppm which should be fine. This graph (http://richardfalk.home.comcast.net/pool/HalfLife.gif) shows that the biggest bang-for-the-buck comes from very little CYA. At 30 ppm, you would keep your chlorine at a target of 3.5 ppm (absolute minimum 2.5 ppm) and your chlorine half-life in direct noontime sun should be about 6 hours (so in practice that means losing somewhat less than half your chlorine level in a 24-hour period). So you might add chlorine at night to get to 7 ppm and find it down at 3.5 to 4 ppm the next evening. At 50 ppm, this half-life increases to about 7 hours, but you'd then need to have a chlorine target of about 5.7 ppm (absolute minimum 3.7 ppm) and you'd end up adding more chlorine to maintain this higher FC level.

Using a pool cover will significantly cut down chlorine usage. Using 30-50 ppm Borates may cut down the usage as well since the Borates will kill algae so that chlorine doesn't have to. Actual chlorine usage is also a function of how much junk (organic matter) gets into your pool. And of course, a pool party with lots of little kids who just can't "hold it" (or get out quickly enough) will use up a whole lot of chlorine very quickly.

Richard

[Cal_Newbie]

Arggggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

It Never Stooooooooooooooooooooops!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lol

[Cal_Newbie]

Oh , one last thingy...my house water TA is 270ppm !!!!!!

Suggestions as to what to do when using the house water to fill with? Or is so diluted that I only need to add acid to adjust.

[chem geek]

If you want to avoid a slow but steady rise in Total Alklainity (TA) from your fill water, then I would suggest that you do the acid/aeration technique with your house water in a large container and then use that water to add to the pool to fill after evaporation. It is FAR easier to lower the TA of your fill water before getting it into the pool.

Of course, whether this is worth doing is a function of how much fill water you will be adding over time. If it's a small fraction of your pool water volume, then the above procedure is not worth it.

Richard

[Cal_Newbie]

When I do my bleach to shock the pool, this will give me a rise in pH, if I recall. Do I let the pH drift down or should I add acid? Friggin stuff...I breezed pharmacology, drip rates, med conversions in the middle of the night..thank goodness my patients are not pools...

[chem geek]

Bleach (and chlorinating liquid) do raise the pH when you add them, but the usage of the chlorine lowers the pH so it's really pH neutral. Don't try to add acid after adding bleach in order to get the pH just right. You'll yo-yo back and forth. Measure your pH consistently, just before you add more chlorine. Finally, if you have enough TA, the addition of chlorine will only raise the pH by about 0.1 to 0.2 which isn't very much. If you measure your pH before you add chlorine, you can target 7.4 and then after chlorine addition it will be 7.5-7.6 and will then slowly drift back down to 7.4 the next time you add chlorine.

The above scenario assumes you aren't experiencing a general rise in pH. Most pools have that and it has nothing to do with the chlorine, but rather the outgassing of carbon dioxide from your pool. Having a lower TA (say, 80 ppm) helps reduce this problem.

Richard