leveling

[badutahboy]

Can someone explain to me how to use a water level to level for a pool?

I understand the concept of using a WL, but I'm not quite understanding how it'll make leveling for a pool easier. It seems to me that I'd have to put the stake in the ground a million times, and measure over and over and over again to make sure things were right.

In my mind, it seems easier to use a 2x4 and a normal level....

Am I missing something totally obvious?

[sevver]

I have to agree with you here. I would feel more comfortable using a 2x4 and level too. The way I did mine though is I borrowed a rotating laser level from work and used it to get it right.

But a water leve is pretty basic. you need a clear tube, and you would pound a stake in someplace and tie the tube to the stake, fill it with water (probably with a garden hose I would imagine). Then you should probably hold the ends together and measure down to wherever you want the finished grade to be. What ever it is, you would have to walk around and just measure down, say if it is 12 inches at the stake, then no matter what it would always be 12 inches down from the water level, so you would just check it as you walk around.

My whole problem with it is that if you set the tube down, it is obviously going to drain out, so someone would have to do that for you, which would mean that someone would be doing all of the work and someone would be the bearer of bad news.

I always see the water level pushed on here, but in this day and age, there are WAY better solutions, rotating laser levels are pretty commonplace now, although the one I used had a transciever that beeps at you when you are dead on. The cheap ones you actually have to see the beem, I am sure you can rent them though.

Site Levels are also good just for getting the perimeter level. The kind you set on a tripod and look through. When I did mine, I predug everything to within about 1.5 inches tolerance, then I set all my blocks dead on, and made things work from there, you could sweep a 2x4 from each block in an arc and have a center benchmark too.

Get this right, once the water is in it, you will see whether or not it is good. And if you are like me, it will bother you if it is not.

steve

[hrsdennis]

Well said Sevver, the water level is accurate but there are easier ways. You can rent a transit or laser lever for a small daily fee and they are so much easier to use. I set my laser up and within an hour or two it is packed up and put away. I level the ground and each individual post, and I can do it alone when needed. I love my laser.

Best of luck with the install, Dennis

[badutahboy]

Well said Sevver, the water level is accurate but there are easier ways. You can rent a transit or laser lever for a small daily fee and they are so much easier to use. I set my laser up and within an hour or two it is packed up and put away. I level the ground and each individual post, and I can do it alone when needed. I love my laser.

Best of luck with the install, Dennis

Presumably, a laser level works only with the receiver, right? So you set up your level in the "control" spot (the poing you're grading to), and then move your receiver from one spot to another, getting it level, then moving on...correct?


Any chance there's a laser level that you set up at ground level, and it'll show you the high and low spots without having to move a receiver around constantly?

I'd love to know there's a solution that makes this process as easy as hanging pictures with the laser levels that'll project a line across the entire wall...

[CarlD]

A laser level MUST be level at its source. If it's even a fraction of a degree off, that will multiply into a noticeable discrepancy. So lots of time is spent setting it up. The, the laser beam breaks up over distance--it shouldn't but I found mind did. The dot would be tiny at 2', but 1/4" across at 30' (roughly).

Another thing about lasers: the pictures always show a line...that's false. The laser is INVISIBLE in the air until it touches something You don't see a line, you see a dot.

OTOH, a water level doesn't have that problem. You can have a 50' tube to lay out a 40' pool, and it will be perfectly level at both ends--it's simply the nature of the beast. It may be difficult and require two people working slowly and carefully, but you won't get an increasing deviation as you move further away...(unless, like Chem_Geek, you start analyzing the physics of Gravity in terms of Einstein's Theory of Relativity! :rolleyes: ).

A water level is also cheap...just clear plastic tubing.

You have to get a fairly expensive laser level to be as accurate. Saying that, once the laser is set up properly, it's much easier...But keep checking it!

[sevver]

A laser level MUST be level at its source. If it's even a fraction of a degree off, that will multiply into a noticeable discrepancy. So lots of time is spent setting it up. The, the laser beam breaks up over distance--it shouldn't but I found mind did. The dot would be tiny at 2', but 1/4" across at 30' (roughly).

Another thing about lasers: the pictures always show a line...that's false. The laser is INVISIBLE in the air until it touches something You don't see a line, you see a dot.

OTOH, a water level doesn't have that problem. You can have a 50' tube to lay out a 40' pool, and it will be perfectly level at both ends--it's simply the nature of the beast. It may be difficult and require two people working slowly and carefully, but you won't get an increasing deviation as you move further away...(unless, like Chem_Geek, you start analyzing the physics of Gravity in terms of Einstein's Theory of Relativity! :rolleyes: ).

A water level is also cheap...just clear plastic tubing.

You have to get a fairly expensive laser level to be as accurate. Saying that, once the laser is set up properly, it's much easier...But keep checking it!

The laser level that I use actually will self level after you get it close. Once it starts spinning it does that, if you get it spinning, and hit the transit legs it returns to where it was. Not sure how the cheaper ones are though, I am tempted to get one as they are very useful to me. You can even use them vertically for building walls. But I digress...

Yes that is totally true, the beam does get larger that farther away you get, but not really anything to throw the pool build off with. not sure, but I don't see tubing being cheap either, I could see renting a laser for cheaper somehow. Or a transit.


Presumably, a laser level works only with the receiver, right? So you set up your level in the "control" spot (the poing you're grading to), and then move your receiver from one spot to another, getting it level, then moving on...correct?


Any chance there's a laser level that you set up at ground level, and it'll show you the high and low spots without having to move a receiver around constantly?

I'd love to know there's a solution that makes this process as easy as hanging pictures with the laser levels that'll project a line across the entire wall...

There is, you can mount the tranciever onto a bull dozer and just drive it around until you get it right.;) But really, if you were to say set it on a block, you could crawl around with a ruler and you would see it on there. It is just not very bright on a sunny day. You will not get anything like the line on the wall with a picture level (isn't that thing awesome!?). The water level is a very accurate method no doubt about it, but personally I would never do it, especially knowing that there are easier ways.

On a side note, I once was in an auger pit that was 37 feet down in the ground, we were augering a 36" pipe under a couple of roads and a set of railroad tracks for a sewer line that had to go through there. The length of the auger was 450 feet. We welded a 1/2" pipe to the outside top of the casing, and it became our water level. When we came out the other side, we were right on where we thought we were going to be. They have their place, that was the only way for us to have checked our change in elevation in that instance, and it worked great.

Good luck
Steve

[badutahboy]

So I'm still not clear on how to use the water level... now that I think about it.

Tell me if I'm right here..

1. Make your water level.

2. Fill the bucket to an identifiable reference point, and create a siphon in your tubing.

3. Tack the tubing to a reference stick (we'll say a 2x4 for our example)

4. Set your 2x4 and bucket together in an area that you KNOW is level, mark reference points on tubing as to where "level" is.

5. place your bucket in the "control" area for your grading.

6. to check level, hold your 2x4 in an area and view the water level in the tubing relative to your reference mark. If the water is below your reference mark, keep digging. If the water is above your reference mark, you're too low and need to add dirt.

7. Repeat this process in enough places throughout your work site to be confident that the entire site is level.

Is this correct?

[sevver]

I don't really know what the bucket is for, I think it is just to siphon through/out of. All you need is a tube full of water, then tape or attatch one end to a board that is beat into the ground (with a reference point on it), and then you could maybe attach the other end to another board, hold it next to the stationary one and transfer the mark accross both boards. Then tape or secure the other end of the hose to the new board. With this done you would essentially have two boards with hoses taped onto them where the water level in each hose is equal to the line. If you wanted to get really creative you should screw a small plywood stand to the bottom of the mobile board. If I were going to do this that is probably how I would do it anyhow, then you could hand the other person a shovel. :D
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/327/waterleveliy3.png

This is sort of what I am talking about. Notice my 31337 Paint Skillz.:cool:

Carl seems to have a handle on this, and there may be another method for it. But this seems like the easiest way to go about it from where I stand. If you were determined to do it this way...

[matt4x4]

The bucket is supposed to give more accuracy if you change the length of your tube and also make getting your accurate starting point a lot easier without removing/adding a couple of drops of water to get to the right height in the tube.

The way I do it is:

Set up one permanent post to which you mount your bucket with the water level at the same height as what your top of the wall will be - this is your reference/starting point and will be the the exact height of the top of the wall, so make sure it's correct. Tape/fasten the far end of the open ended tube to a second post at least 6" taller than your wall - you can give this post a 1.5x1.5 foot plywood board base or a tripod style base so it's self standing to make life easy on yourself. If you have a tall enough camera tripod, it will work too, but get dirty in the process.
This saves you from pounding it that post you were complaining about over and over...
Set it immediately beside the bucket post and mark off the bucket level on teh tube or the post (water in tube should also be at this mark).
This mark is what your level point will be, as you move your tripod post around the site, the water in the tube will be either:
at the mark - meaning you're exactly at grade
Below the mark - meaning grade is too high by the difference
Above the mark - meaning grade is too low by the difference and you'll need to backfill some dirt.

Hope this makes your water levelling a littel easier.

[badutahboy]

The bucket is supposed to give more accuracy if you change the length of your tube and also make getting your accurate starting point a lot easier without removing/adding a couple of drops of water to get to the right height in the tube.

The way I do it is:

Set up one permanent post to which you mount your bucket with the water level at the same height as what your top of the wall will be - this is your reference/starting point and will be the the exact height of the top of the wall, so make sure it's correct. Tape/fasten the far end of the open ended tube to a second post at least 6" taller than your wall - you can give this post a 1.5x1.5 foot plywood board base or a tripod style base so it's self standing to make life easy on yourself. If you have a tall enough camera tripod, it will work too, but get dirty in the process.
This saves you from pounding it that post you were complaining about over and over...
Set it immediately beside the bucket post and mark off the bucket level on teh tube or the post (water in tube should also be at this mark).
This mark is what your level point will be, as you move your tripod post around the site, the water in the tube will be either:
at the mark - meaning you're exactly at grade
Below the mark - meaning grade is too high by the difference
Above the mark - meaning grade is too low by the difference and you'll need to backfill some dirt.

Hope this makes your water levelling a littel easier.



Got postponed for a few days by rain.... so I haven't started yet.. which is good, your idea to elevate the bucket to the level of the top of the rail is brilliant.

I have 2 questions though...

1. is there anything wrong with cutting a 2x4 to, say, 60" (my rails are 54" high... attaching the tubing to the 2x4, and then must moving it plac to place, and leaning it against a wall while I work? That'll achieve the same thing as the tripod... just wanting ot make sure I'm not missing some obvious reason why that'd be stupid (other than the possibility that the 2x4 will get kicked, losing water and forcing me to refill/adjust the level for accuracy).

2. Everyone agrees that the pool needs to be within 1" of level everywhere... Does that mean that as long as my reading is within 1" or level, I should move on to the next location? I had planned on getting it damn near level everywhere, but it doesn't make a difference, as long as it's within 1", that'd save me a TON of time.

Does my 2nd question make sense? I feel like it's vague but not sure how to phrase it correctly.

[hrsdennis]

Hi, I can answer question number 2. The 1 inch applies to an overall slope from one side to the other. This could happen due to ground settling. You are best off starting as level as you can possibly get. The wall will install and stay in the bottom rail so much easier, you would not believe the difference. Take three bottom plates, the outer two the same level and the center down a quarter of an inch. You will notice this when installing the wall. You may get past it but it will be noticeable. If the center post is down a full inch you will not get past it without the wall falling over. Take as much time as you need to make the bottom rail and footplates as level as you can possibly get them. The rest of the install will go so much smoother and the pool will look so much better. Worth every minute, day or week.

Best of luck, Dennis

[hrsdennis]

Here another thread that might help.

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=4169

[badutahboy]

Hi, I can answer question number 2. The 1 inch applies to an overall slope from one side to the other. This could happen due to ground settling. You are best off starting as level as you can possibly get. The wall will install and stay in the bottom rail so much easier, you would not believe the difference. Take three bottom plates, the outer two the same level and the center down a quarter of an inch. You will notice this when installing the wall. You may get past it but it will be noticeable. If the center post is down a full inch you will not get past it without the wall falling over. Take as much time as you need to make the bottom rail and footplates as level as you can possibly get them. The rest of the install will go so much smoother and the pool will look so much better. Worth every minute, day or week.

Best of luck, Dennis



That's exactly what I thought, but I didn't know the details of WHY it needs to be so perfectly level, other than aesthetic appearance.

Thanks for the info. Work begins tomorrow, if the ground has dried out some.

[matt4x4]

Just an FYI - I would go with the self standing post only because your thread seems to imply your wall is allready set up ("leaning the 2x6 against a wall") - unless you meant the house wall.....which just means a lot of back and forth walking in my opinion..(far side being 24+ feet to the 2x6, 24+ feet back to wall to rest it again - those numbers add up too quickly)
Do NOT set your base rail and wall up before the ground is levelled, you'll just make it three times as hard on yourself.

Another reason I'd use a plated or tripod bottom is that the 2x6 can easily sink 1/2 inch into loose soil in a particular spot but right next to it may be dead on level where the tripod or plate method somewhat averages over a larger area eliminating the measuring in the aforesaid soft spot which could be a mis-reading.

about a year ago I wrote up an extensive thread on an AG pool install, where I mentioned that I used 2-3" compacted Screenings (crusher run) where my wall sits - this stuff is ideal for getting a nice perfectly level wall base and beats setup on dirt any day - of course, you have to go deeper at first, then bring the base level back up for your wall to sit on - if going that route, make sure you calculate that into your equation.
It does make levelling easier since excavation is done to a rough level and brought back to level using screenings which are WAY easier to work with.

[badutahboy]

Just an FYI - I would go with the self standing post only because your thread seems to imply your wall is allready set up ("leaning the 2x6 against a wall") - unless you meant the house wall.....which just means a lot of back and forth walking in my opinion..(far side being 24+ feet to the 2x6, 24+ feet back to wall to rest it again - those numbers add up too quickly)
Do NOT set your base rail and wall up before the ground is levelled, you'll just make it three times as hard on yourself.

Another reason I'd use a plated or tripod bottom is that the 2x6 can easily sink 1/2 inch into loose soil in a particular spot but right next to it may be dead on level where the tripod or plate method somewhat averages over a larger area eliminating the measuring in the aforesaid soft spot which could be a mis-reading.

about a year ago I wrote up an extensive thread on an AG pool install, where I mentioned that I used 2-3" compacted Screenings (crusher run) where my wall sits - this stuff is ideal for getting a nice perfectly level wall base and beats setup on dirt any day - of course, you have to go deeper at first, then bring the base level back up for your wall to sit on - if going that route, make sure you calculate that into your equation.
It does make levelling easier since excavation is done to a rough level and brought back to level using screenings which are WAY easier to work with.


Sorry, I'm buildng my pool next to an 8' cinder block wall that runs the length of my property.. that's what I meant by wall...


THanks for all the advice. I have a feeling you guys have made this process a whole lot easier for me.