spring start up, general questions, BBB method

[darenjones]

Hi all, and to Ben, good luck and wish you well. I pass this site onto a lot of people, who to my knowledge feel so relieved when they see the vast quantity of information, and such generosity of all of those who contribute on here!... hope it stays !

My questions regarding spring startup, I am here in NE Florida, and I am looking to start year 2 with my "soft wall" pool (my wally world 18' metal frame intex)
I am hoping that my hard plumbing, and eventual filter upgrade will be useful when I upgrade to a more permanent pool.

This winter I did have the cover on, until some pretty wild weather, which took it off. Despite my best efforts, it came off again, with some wild weather, completely covered the pool in maple, raintree, oak, and a messpot of pollen. I attempted to scoop most of it out, but with water temps down in the upper 40s to 50s, it was just too cold to tolerate. So, I did what any respectable pool owner would do... I let it go till spring!!!
I just got into it this past week, started on Monday by skimming all the junk I could get from the surface, then dumped 2 gal of bleach into the circulating water. (greened over pretty bad, had "things" wiggling in the water)
Water is progressively getting better, my FC is holding about 75% over night, doing another heavy shock tonight to see if I can get it to hold more.
My numbers before I forget.
FC (before the added 2 gal tonight) 6.5
CC .5
TC 7
PH 7.2
TA 80
CH <1
CYA 55-60
temp 75
SALT, 1000ppm *assume this is a result of the bleach*

My questions, I am looking at the ph, because I have never added borax to the pool, and was wondering what the total benefits are to having the borate in the pool. I just added 2.5lb of CYA to get my levels up, so I assume that is why my PH is low, so I am hesitant to raise it via borax without knowing what I am doing!
I read in a few other posts, I think Carl had one, about adding borax BEFORE shocking the pool..., um, wish I had read that one first!
anyway, just want to get this year off to a good start, pool after 6 days, 8 gal of bleach, my water is just lightly milky, I started to see bottom on Friday.
I know I need a real filter, just saving the money waiting for the right deal, is there anything else I should be doing ? or am I on the right path ?

Thanks in advance...
early openers in FL...
DJ

[nater]

Hey Darren, congrats on having water warm enough to swim in :)

According to the best guess chart, you should shock at 15-20 ppm FC for your CYA level of 60-65. Keeping the level there for a few days should clear things right up.

You can use the bleach calc to figure out how much Borax to add. A good tip is to add 1/2 of what it calls for, wait 24 hours, and test again. Better to go slow than overshoot.

I don't know of a good reason not to add borax at anytime to get your pH where you want it. Perhaps someone else has a good reason?

[CrisL]

Borax will raise your ph without raising your alkalinity. It is less caustic than ph up so is safer to use and store. Also, in somewhat larger quantities than you would use to raise the ph a couple of points, it will help stabilize the ph. You will not have ph swings. Finally in very large quantities (30-50 ppm in a pool) it will act as an algaecide. It is the same stuff sold under the brand name Proteam Supreme.

If someone has a ph very low (off the scale below 6.8) and needs to raise the ph quickly, ph up is probably a better choice as it moves the ph more and faster than borax, because it is more caustic. Otherwise, I am unaware of any downside to using borax for simple ph adjustments.

[chem geek]

CrisL is mostly correct, but I wanted to quantify some things. Technically, Borax or any base that raises pH will also raise the TA a little (just as any acid that lowers pH will also lower the TA a little), but it is true that it will not add carbonates to the pool and therefore will not raise the TA as much as pH Up (sodium carbonate / soda ash / washing soda). 1 pound of sodium carbonate in 10,000 gallons with your pH of 7.2 and TA of 80 will raise the pH to 7.48 and the TA to 91.3 while 1 pound of Borax will raise the pH to 7.33 and the TA to 83.1. For an equivalent rise in pH to 7.48, it takes 31.7 ounces (almost 2 pounds) of 20 Mule Team Borax and the TA will rise to 86.2, again per 10,000 gallons. So for the same pH rise it takes twice as much Borax by weight as sodium carbonate and the TA rises about half as much.

The reason for this is that Total Alkalinity includes the "alkalinity" from the difference of hydroxyl ions to hydrogen ions and this relationship is directly related to the pH. In some sense, the dissociated products of water itself act as a (very weak) pH buffer. The effect is small, but actually measurable in the TA test for larger changes in pH.

Richard

[darenjones]

first off, thank you all for the replies...
I just want to make sure that I am doing all I can to ensure crystal clear water throughout the season.
I saw in a post by Watermom that you add borax then a part of acid, to offset the alk and ph rise. I don't think I need to worry about that, I am today, still sitting right at 7.2, and 80ppm on alk. My FC is 11, TC 11, CYA still 55ppm. So I am not getting a ph swing like I did last year (it always wanted to be at 7.8 or 8.0. I was going thru acid all season last year (first year with it, so I am assuming there was some stabalizing to be done.
I am running with about 7100 gal of water in my little pool, so I only need to add about 13 oz or so, should I add the acid, or let the ph and alk bump up a notch or so...
also, can I add this while my TC is high ? (still trying to clear it up the rest of the way, by keeping it up near 15ppm overnight)

Thanks again for the help!

ps, without having a borate test in my kit (is it available thru Taylor ?) how do I know what level I am at ? *please dont say take a sample to the pool store... I usually get into an argument with them! **

[chem geek]

As CrisL pointed out, there are TWO different purposes for using Borax. If you add Borax in order to raise pH, then you just add Borax only. If instead you are adding Borax to get to 30-50 ppm Borates for use as an additional pH buffer and an algaecide, then you add a heck-of-a-lot more Borax as well as acid in small portions one after the other (not together). As for how to measure Borates, there are test strips and this is described in more detail somewhere in this thread (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=4712).

As for your pH, you could just wait to see how it settles out between the lowering pH effect as the chlorine level drops vs. the increasing pH effect from the outgassing of carbon dioxide. If you see that it drifts upwards on its own, then you can just let it do so as it approaches 7.5 or so. If it doesn't move, then you can add a little Borax to bump it up, but that's really up to you, mostly since 7.5 is a little better on the eyes (but just a little -- the salinity probably has a greater effect in terms of "stinging").

Exposure to sunlight (if you have any this time of year) is the best way to reduce CCs in your pool. The higher chlorine levels will help, but sometimes take a while.

Richard

[Watermom]

I saw in a post by Watermom that you add borax then a part of acid, to offset the alk and ph rise.

I don't think it was a post by me.

[darenjones]

my bad, I got my water people mixed up! I meant Waterbear !

[darenjones]

OK, when do I consider clarifier ? or a floculant ?
I have been after the water for about 2 weeks now
FC 5
CC 0
TC 5
PH 7.2
Alk 80
CH <1
CYA 55
temp 75
Water is still slightly cloudy, can see bottom, but not diagonal to other side.

Any suggestions ? kept the chlor at 11-15 ppm (per the CYA shock table) all week until yesterday (5 days)
Any ideas ? Am I missing something ? Plus, I never got a response regarding the borax, and how to properly add... for PH and for Borates ?