Electrical wiring concern with my PB

[skamp]

I just had a conversation with my PB about how they are going to wire my EasyTouch 8 control panel. First a little background. I have a 42 slot 200 AMP main panel (just upgraded it myself from 125 AMP to allow for pool equipment, lighting, etc) with 6 slots left open. The controller we are using is the EasyTouch 8 that has a 125 AMP capable 16 slot sub panel built in. I want to save some slots in my main panel for dedicated 20 AMP and/or 50 AMP circuits for things like power tools and a welder, etc. I also wanted to mention my main breaker panel is about 5-6 feet from where my control panel will be.

The electrician my PB uses wants to run a few individual runs (a few 30 and 15/20 AMP runs) to my control panel which would completely bypass the sub panel in the control panel. This solution would use 5-6 slots total from my main panel. By doing this it leaves me without any additional power for landscape lighting, etc at the control panel and basically would force me to run additional power to the control panel if I want to add landscape lighting or something else that would be controlled by the control panel.

What I wanted to do was have them make a single 100 AMP run from the main breaker panel (100 AMP breaker in my main panel would only require 2 slots) to the control panel and run all the equipment from the sub panel built in. This would leave me with plenty of power for landscaping lighting, power to the outdoor kitchen, etc at the control panel. My understanding this is the normal way to do this. Most of the panels I saw from other PB's had their control panels wired this way.

In order to do it my way they want to charge an extra $300.00. I was told this represents the cost for the extra breakers, wire, etc. It seems awfully excessive considering the multiple 30 AMP and 15 AMP runs would not be needed. The incremental cost here is larger wire (#4-#2 copper depending on what chart you use vs whatever would be needed for the other circuits (BTW #2 is $ .95 a foot so that is only $15.00 for the largest wire)) and the cost of the 100 AMP feeder breaker (about $35.00). It was also mentioned that larger conduit would be needed and that is harder to work with the larger wire. :confused: I am not so sure about how hard it is to deal with #2 copper. I just rewired my main panel with 4/0 aluminum and that is tough stuff to work with!

I am not pissed at my PB at all but the situation really bothers me. To me it would seem the way they want to run it is not normal and is basically talking the easy way instead of doing it the right way. It seems like I am at the mercy of the electrician and that is part I hate. I want to push this issue but don't want to get into an adversely situation with my PB.

What do you guys think? Thanks!

Steve

[huskyrider]

It seems awfully excessive considering the multiple 30 AMP and 15 AMP runs would not be needed. The incremental cost here is larger wire (#4-#2 copper depending on what chart you use vs whatever would be needed for the other circuits (BTW #2 is $ .95 a foot so that is only $15.00 for the largest wire)) and the cost of the 100 AMP feeder breaker (about $35.00). It was also mentioned that larger conduit would be needed and that is harder to work with the larger wire. :confused: I am not so sure about how hard it is to deal with #2 copper. I just rewired my main panel with 4/0 aluminum and that is tough stuff to work with!


I disagree. It's more affordable to use multiple breakers with a smaller gauge wire. However even though it's cheaper I'll always energize the pool's sub panel with the wire size I need for my load just to save the breaker spaces in the existing power center. If I were constructing your pool I'd use a #8 and if you wanted more power you'd have to pay for the upgrade in ampacity based on actual cost. It would be less than 100 bucks.

The 300 he's asking isn't out of line, I'm certain it's exactly what his electrician is charging him. This is the difference between inhouse work and outsourced work by a subcontractor. He doesn't dictate his costs, the sub does.

See ya,
Kelly

[skamp]

I disagree. It's more affordable to use multiple breakers with a smaller gauge wire. However even though it's cheaper I'll always energize the pool's sub panel with the wire size I need for my load just to save the breaker spaces in the existing power center. If I were constructing your pool I'd use a #8 and if you wanted more power you'd have to pay for the upgrade in ampacity based on actual cost. It would be less than 100 bucks.

The 300 he's asking isn't out of line, I'm certain it's exactly what his electrician is charging him. This is the difference between inhouse work and outsourced work by a subcontractor. He doesn't dictate his costs, the sub does.

See ya,
Kelly

Kelly,
I absolutely agree it is cheaper to do it with more runs of smaller wires even though in my opinion it is the wrong way to do it. If there is a sub panel in the control panel it should be engerized. I also 100% agree that I should be responsible for the difference in cost. If they told me $100.00 more for the 100 AMP breaker, larger wire (2 AWG or 4 AWG vs multiple runs 10-14 AWG wire) and labor I would have no problem whatsoever even thouggh that is still a bit high (the reality is the 100 AMP breaker plus the larger wire is about $50-60 total without taking out the cost of the 14-12 AWG wire they won't need to use). I do have a serious issue with $300.00.

I would have no problem paying the incremental cost but they claimed they spoke with the electrician and it would be $300.00 to wire a sub panel. They told me they normally do a sub panel if there is not enough room in the main panel. If that was the case I could understand as they would need to run wires back from the sub panel to the main panel to make up for the breakers that they used. This in not the case for me.

I am not sure how to handle this with my PB. Should I tell them they are way out of line and talk to someone higher up like the owner? I really don't want to get into a fight with my PB as they have been great up to here but I don't think I should just suck it up and pay $300.00 for $50-100 worth of work. Thanks!

Steve

[huskyrider]

I suggest just paying it.
I really don't see the electrician coming down on his price, and I don't see the contractor making a concession out of his contract. He never made an allowance for it on his spread. The price the electrician is asking is the fair market value of the upgrade to 100 amps regardless of how much the additional materials cost.
If he proceeds with his multiple breakers installation it's going to take 5 slots in your existing breaker box. It'll be 2 double throw 30's and a single throw 15 for the pool lamps.
Another option would be to ask the builder if you purchased the materials would the electrician install it on your behalf, all he'd be out is the same labor it would of taken to begin with.

See ya,
Kelly

[skamp]

I suggest just paying it.
I really don't see the electrician coming down on his price, and I don't see the contractor making a concession out of his contract. He never made an allowance for it on his spread. The price the electrician is asking is the fair market value of the upgrade to 100 amps regardless of how much the additional materials cost.
If he proceeds with his multiple breakers installation it's going to take 5 slots in your existing breaker box. It'll be 2 double throw 30's and a single throw 15 for the pool lamps.
Another option would be to ask the builder if you purchased the materials would the electrician install it on your behalf, all he'd be out is the same labor it would of taken to begin with.

See ya,
Kelly

Kelly,
As always I appreciate your response. I really don't want to suck it up but it looks like I may have to do that. I will propose buying the supplies and see what they say. Thanks!

Steve

[Poolidiot]

Steve,
I will throw my 2 cents in on this. First of all $300.00 is not out of line. Second, you need to determine what your panel is pulling now without the pool equipment on it. You say you have a 200 amp service correct? Well if you are pulling , lets say 150 amps now without your pool equipment then you do not have enough amperage to add a sub panel of 100 amps. But lets say you are only pulling 100 amps now then you do have enough amperage to add a 100 amp subpanel BUT you will not have enough left to add anything (like tools or welders) in the future from your panel. If you go over 200 amps then you run the risk of over loading your service. Your 4/0 wire is just at the 200 amp range so if you add more amperage then you run the risk of your service wire over heating and then you could run into a dangerous situation. If you will have over 200 amps total you will need to run the service from your meter to your controller panel and not from your existing panel. But to do this you need to make sure your meter is rated for more then 200 amps. Not sure if I wrote this to where you can understand what I am saying or if all I did was confuse you more.

[pinkivory_99]

I would push the issue. The reason you are installing the East Touch 8 is so you can control the equipment and acessories that you add in the future from this panel, plus if you have to work on pool equipment etc you can shut off the 100 amp breaker and not affect your household items.
Setting it up with a 100 amp service would be the best way to do it and it should not cost 300.00. Wire size should be #2 enclosed in 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" grey pvc pipe and #2 wire is not that hard to work with. If it is a straight run from your box to the Easy touch it should be a piece of cake. Tell the pool builder that you will take care of it youself, sounds like you would be capable of doing this since you upgraded you main panel. The electrician could run the pool equipment etc. wiring out of the easy touch. Maybe the PB and electrician do not know how the Easy Touch works????? and this is why they do not want to use it.
I don't think you will ever overload the 200 amp service, I run shop tools, 2 electric, kilns pool equipment and household loads and never have had a problem, you have to realize all of the electrical items in your house are not running at the same time.
Stand your ground and get it the way you want it. You have to live with it the PB and electrician do not. Just my 2 cents.....

[Poolidiot]

"I don't think you will ever overload the 200 amp service, I run shop tools, 2 electric, kilns pool equipment and household loads and never have had a problem, you have to realize all of the electrical items in your house are not running at the same time."

Pinkivory,
Although you are probably right,it is better to check then just assume and then find out you are screwed.

[huskyrider]

Tell the pool builder that you will take care of it youself.
I disagree with this completely. You'll have no warranty for your first year from the electrician.


it should not cost 300.00.
I'm curious, please tell me what you think it should cost.


I do agree that it should be a 2awg in a 1 1/2" conduit.

I also agree that energizing the 100 amp power center is really no big deal.
If, by chance, you were amp'd out on your load you'd trip the 200 main disconnect breaker and lose all power everywhere until it was reset. 200 amps is a bunch and unless you had a heat pump on the pool running at the same time as an electric home heater, electric oven, and an electric clothes dryer, plus your usual lights and televisions etc.. I seriously doubt that you'd trip it.

I really think the best bet is to ask the builder if you can purchase the materials and have his sub install them.

See ya,
Kelly

[Poolidiot]

I disagree with this completely. You'll have no warranty for your first year from the electrician.


I'm curious, please tell me what you think it should cost.


I do agree that it should be a 2awg in a 1 1/2" conduit.

I also agree that energizing the 100 amp power center is really no big deal.
If, by chance, you were amp'd out on your load you'd trip the 200 main disconnect breaker and lose all power everywhere until it was reset. 200 amps is a bunch and unless you had a heat pump on the pool running at the same time as an electric home heater, electric oven, and an electric clothes dryer, plus your usual lights and televisions etc..

See ya,
Kelly

Kelly what you say may be true 99% of the time BUT that 1% of the time do you want to take the risk of the breaker NOT tripping and your wire over heating and possibly starting a fire? I wouldnt take that risk.My thinking is always do the job right, not the cheapest or easier way.

And if someone tells him to do it his self then that is not a smart thing to tell him. Around here we have city codes, where you have to get permits and you have to be a licensed electrician , true a home owner can take a test and then do their own electrical work but being on a pool i would highly discourage a home owner from doing this.

I would also be interested in hearing what the original poster and others think a fair price would be.

[huskyrider]

quote" And if someone tells him to do it his self then that is not a smart thing to tell him "quote

Yes sir, with this I agree 100percent.

Not because he's not capable, rather because any little nit pick item that may come up electrically oriented within the first year will not be covered.
It's obvious to me that if the buyer changed out his existing meter can and power center for the home that he's more than capable of energizing the new power center for the digital controller off of a new double throw breaker.
I know the owner of his pool company is a good man, and as long as he doesn't add any incurred costs to his spread he'll oblige the homeowners requests. The question is will the subcontractor that the work is assigned to oblige him too.

One of the biggest reasons, aside from the additional profitability and scheduling on my timeline, that I keep the bulk of our work inhouse is situations just like this. Subs are accustomed to getting their way because 99 out of 100 pool builders are only capable of the most important job descriptions of all, the selling of the work and the cutting of the checks. I can assure you of this, the builder needs the sub more than the sub needs the builder.

See ya,
Kelly

[skamp]

Here is my take on it. The electrical sub already has to do the following to bring electric to the panel.


Cut a hole in the brick to bring service from main panel to the outside.
Run conduit through the brick and out to the EasyTouch panel 5 feet away
Run two 30 AMP and a 15 AMP run through conduit. I also forgot to mention they are running a 15 AMP circuit to my outdoor kitchen and I have another sub for my patio cover that needs to run a 15 AMP circuit. I assume this would require 2 x 10/3 cables (220 service for pumps, etc, 1 x 14/2 (pool lights), 1 x 14/3 (dedicated run for outdoor kitchen) and a #6 ground (must run seperate ground as you cannot bond ground to the neutral in a sub panel).


If they install it as a sub panel he still has to do all the steps above the only difference is the hole in the brick will need to be slightly larger to accomodate the larger conduit, the wires which would now be 3 x #2 and a #6 ground (the retail cost of these wires for a 5 foot run is less then $20.00. There would also be an additional 100 AMP breaker that costs $33.00 at Home Depot. I would be more then happy to buy the wire, breaker and conduit.

For the above change, the charge I would consider fair is $100-150. That would be about $50-60 in parts and $50-100 in extra labor which to be honest is no more work. Maybe 10 minutes more for a pro.

I have thought about adding a 100 AMP sub panel to the outside of my house for the electrical sub to use but that is an extra $30.00 out of my pocket for the panel.

As far as overloading the service, a sub panel or multiple sub panels are not a problem. You can basically have an unlimited number of breakers regardless of the service. The key thing is you cannot draw more power then you have. In my case I would not run the pool equiptment if I was welding but having an additional 50 or 100 AMP breaker in the panel that not being used is no risk. My original server was 125 AMP's I doubt I was every using more then 90. I have a gas range so that is 40 AMP's right there that is connected in the panel but not used. I upgraded to 200 AMP's to have a ton of headroom so the wire would not heat up from being close to max load.

I will have a conversation with my PB today. I will let you know how it goes.

Thanks!

Steve

[skamp]

Well I just looked at my contract again and it states in the utilities section that it includes a sub panel. Looks like they are on the hook for doing this. I guess the big question is what AMP service does that mean? If they were planning on running a 60 AMP (which I would deem to be the minimum) they would need to run #4 so I am hoping I can convince them to run #2 with a 100 AMP breaker instead for the cost difference. I will let you know what happens.

Steve

[pinkivory_99]

I agree with Skamp 100 to 150 extra for the work would be more inline than the 300 that the electrcian wanted. I did not mean that Skamp should just do it, I realize that permits are needed and that codes need to be followed. Since Skamp just upgraded his service I think he should know the codes and that permits would be needed, since going from a 125 amp service to a 200 amp service would mean an increase in the wire size coming from the metercan and possibly a change in the metercan plus bigger wire from the metrercan to where the utility company hooks up. The town that I live in Texas allows the Homeowner to perform his own work if he can articulate to the inspector what he is going to do and show that he knows the code and the utility company will not hook you back up until the inspector okays the work. Being an electrician by trade at one time, I don't see what the big deal is about this job.

[skamp]

I agree with Skamp 100 to 150 extra for the work would be more inline than the 300 that the electrcian wanted. I did not mean that Skamp should just do it, I realize that permits are needed and that codes need to be followed. Since Skamp just upgraded his service I think he should know the codes and that permits would be needed, since going from a 125 amp service to a 200 amp service would mean an increase in the wire size coming from the metercan and possibly a change in the metercan plus bigger wire from the metrercan to where the utility company hooks up. The town that I live in Texas allows the Homeowner to perform his own work if he can articulate to the inspector what he is going to do and show that he knows the code and the utility company will not hook you back up until the inspector okays the work. Being an electrician by trade at one time, I don't see what the big deal is about this job.

Yea where I live there are no permits or inspections but I spent a ton of time makeing sure I knew what I was doing before I did it. Electric service is no joke. The reason why I did the 200 AMP upgrade myself is contractors were quoting me $2000+. I did it for $450.00 which included some day laborers to dig the trench. This included running 90 feet of 4/0 4/0 2/0 URD through 2" schedule 80 conduit buried 18+ inches deep from the transformer to the meter can, a 200 AMP main breaker, and running the 4/0 4/0 2/0 URD from the meter can to the main panel.

Anyway I spoke with my PB and there was a miscommunication. My quote included a sub panel hookup so it looks like I got all worked up for nothing. I appreciate all the feedback and comments!

Steve

[Poolidiot]

"As far as overloading the service, a sub panel or multiple sub panels are not a problem"

Standard wise, this statement is wrong.

[skamp]

"As far as overloading the service, a sub panel or multiple sub panels are not a problem"

Standard wise, this statement is wrong.

Not sure what you mean. You can have multiple sub panels and still not overload the main panel. The number of breakers and/or feeders to other sub panels is irrelevant. Only the total load matters. The problem is not the number of breakers or sub panels.

Almost everyone's main panel is "over subscribed" in that the total sum of all the breakers is more and in most cases much more then the main breaker. There is a limit but it is much higher then the main breaker's rating. In practice you would do a load calculation to determine your maximum probable load to size your main service. I did not run the calulation but my service even with the sub panel would never come close to 200 AMP's.

Below is something I found that deals with a question on the NEC test that applies here.

Q8. Is there a code limitation as to the total ampere rating of all circuit breakers in a panel? Example: Could the total ampere rating of all circuit breakers in a 100A panel exceed 100A?

A8. This is not a Code issue. The sum of the ampere rating of the circuit breakers in a panelboard is irrelevant. As a matter of fact, it is very common for the total ampere rating of the branch breakers in a panelboard to far exceed the rating of the panelboard.

Steve

[Poolidiot]

"I did not run the calulation but my service even with the sub panel would never come close to 200 AMP's."

Well all I can say is, This is your house, You said there is no inspections in your area, you say your panel would never reach 200 amps even with adding tools and welders. So I say good luck with your project and I hope you never have any problems.

[skamp]

"I did not run the calulation but my service even with the sub panel would never come close to 200 AMP's."

Well all I can say is, This is your house, You said there is no inspections in your area, you say your panel would never reach 200 amps even with adding tools and welders. So I say good luck with your project and I hope you never have any problems.

As of right now I don't have tools or a welder hooked up. I wanted to have space to add it later. If I was to do this I would make sure that the pool equipment was off to prevent a possible overload. Even if it did not still don't think I would be close to 200 AMP's. If I did exceed the 200 AMP's the main breaker would trip. That is what it's job is, to prevent an overload.

To be honest I wish they had inspections in my area to make sure my work is solid. I have spoken to a number of electricians before doing my 200 AMP upgrade to make 100% I was following code.

Steve

[Poolidiot]

"If I did exceed the 200 AMP's the main breaker would trip. That is what it's job is, to prevent an overload. "


I agree that is the breakers "job", BUT I have seen breakers NOT do the job, I have seen an cord break and land in water and the breaker not trip. So although that is a breakers job it does not always do its job right. I just work on the side of safety.

[huskyrider]

Of this I can assure you.
In my lifetime I've been involved in the construction of an easy 3000 plus swimming pools between being another mans hand, a mechanical subcontractor, and a general contractor.
I've yet to see one power center (breaker box) where the sum of the individual breakers added up to an equal or less ampacity. The total of these breakers always exceeds the the main disconnect breaker.
I agree with skamp. The thing to do is make a mental determination of what your big loads are and stay under that number while running your circuits.
In the average home the items I mentioned are the high load circuits.

Poolidiot is also absolutely correct in the fact that it can be overloaded.

I have 200 amps to my pool/pavilion area with its own meter can and power service.
I've tripped the main breaker twice since construction. It was the same thing both times. We had the band equipment set up and were jamming, had all 11 pumps running, and kicked on the heat pumps to help the gas fired heaters heat the spa quickly. The power tripped after 5 minutes give or take, the backyard went completely black and silent, the only light was from inside the house, from the fire in the fireplace out in the pavilion, and from the firepit flames by the beach.
Now I run our band equipment off of a 50amp garage circuit. I just fed straight through it another 8/3 to a power center behind the pavilion. Now I can convert garage energy into backyard energy and not risk tripping the main.
Although 200 amps is a bunch it can be as easily tripped by to much of a load as a 15 in a bathroom with teenage girls and hairdryers, LOL.

See ya,
Kelly

[skamp]

"If I did exceed the 200 AMP's the main breaker would trip. That is what it's job is, to prevent an overload. "


I agree that is the breakers "job", BUT I have seen breakers NOT do the job, I have seen an cord break and land in water and the breaker not trip. So although that is a breakers job it does not always do its job right. I just work on the side of safety.

I agree. I also error on the side of safety. That is why I put in 200 AMP service. I only had 125 before. I upgraded to give me plenty of overhead for the pool equiptment and other stuff. I am sure my 125 AMP service would have provided enough power even with the pool upgrade but I did not want run near capacity.

Steve

[huskyrider]

I guess the big question is what AMP service does that mean? If they were planning on running a 60 AMP (which I would deem to be the minimum)

Steve While I was reaffirming poolidiots statement last night I meant to address this but got off rambling about how I've lost my power. I lost track of the topic and posted the reply.

Here's your equipment from another thread




MECHANICAL EQUIPMENT
Equipment Pad: Gunite
Filter: Sta Rite Modular System 3, Cartridge Filter 400 Sq. Ft.
Pool/Spa Pump: Sta Rite 2 HP
Waterfall Pump: Sta Rite 2 HP
Paramount Pump: Sta Rite 1 HP
Blower: Polaris QT 1/5 HP
Automatic Cleaner: PCC-2000 Cleaning & Circulation System w/MDX Main Drain and Debris Canister
Controller: Easy Touch 8 Function Wireless Control System
Sanitizer: Salt System w/ Beginnings and Renewals
Ozonator: Paramount Clear 03 Ozone System
Lights: Pool: One (1) Pentair Amerlite 500 Watt
Spa: One (1) Pentair Aqualite 100 Watt
Heater: Sta Rite Max-E-Therm 400,000 BTU Nat

I came up with 47 amps.

You'll get a 50 amp (8/2 w/grd) for your controllers power center from your electrician.

See ya,
Kelly

[skamp]

While I was reaffirming poolidiots statement last night I meant to address this but got off rambling about how I've lost my power. I lost track of the topic and posted the reply.

Here's your equipment from another thread


I came up with 47 amps.

You'll get a 50 amp (8/2 w/grd) for your controllers power center from your electrician.

See ya,
Kelly

Kelly,
They said they are going to do a 100 AMP panel for me as a sub panel was already included in my bid. In addtion to the pool equiptment I have the following:


15 AMP circuit for outdoor kitchen. It will be running a small light and fridge so this will only use a few amps.
15-20 AMP circuit for covered patio. This will have 6 can lights, 2 ceiling fans and two flood lights. This should be about 1200 watts max.
15 AMP circuit for lanscape lighting. This will be maybe 10 AMP's.


So with the pool equiptment and other power needs I am somewhere around 60-70 AMP's max. The cost to change from a 70 AMP to 100 AMP feed is around $10.00-$20.00 so I figured why not. I have extra capacity if I ever need it. Thanks!

Steve

[skamp]

Of this I can assure you.
In my lifetime I've been involved in the construction of an easy 3000 plus swimming pools between being another mans hand, a mechanical subcontractor, and a general contractor.
I've yet to see one power center (breaker box) where the sum of the individual breakers added up to an equal or less ampacity. The total of these breakers always exceeds the the main disconnect breaker.
I agree with skamp. The thing to do is make a mental determination of what your big loads are and stay under that number while running your circuits.
In the average home the items I mentioned are the high load circuits.

Poolidiot is also absolutely correct in the fact that it can be overloaded.

I have 200 amps to my pool/pavilion area with its own meter can and power service.
I've tripped the main breaker twice since construction. It was the same thing both times. We had the band equipment set up and were jamming, had all 11 pumps running, and kicked on the heat pumps to help the gas fired heaters heat the spa quickly. The power tripped after 5 minutes give or take, the backyard went completely black and silent, the only light was from inside the house, from the fire in the fireplace out in the pavilion, and from the firepit flames by the beach.
Now I run our band equipment off of a 50amp garage circuit. I just fed straight through it another 8/3 to a power center behind the pavilion. Now I can convert garage energy into backyard energy and not risk tripping the main.
Although 200 amps is a bunch it can be as easily tripped by to much of a load as a 15 in a bathroom with teenage girls and hairdryers, LOL.

See ya,
Kelly

Too funny. I have 1 girl now and one on the way so I will make sure to keep track of the hairdyers in the future so I don't trip the main!

Steve

[huskyrider]

Too funny. I have 1 girl now and one on the way so I will make sure to keep track of the hairdyers in the future so I don't trip the main!

Steve

LMAO!!!

As the father of many kids, and all but one being girls I'm rolling over laughing about the hairdryers. You have no idea how many times I've walked to our breaker box!!! The next time I build a new home I'll put in dual bathroom circuits or build a 5 bedroom with 5 bath home!!!

Here's a link of what you can look forward to, LOL!!!

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/pools/msg0701534410339.html

My son is now expecting a daughter in July of 07. Although I really envy you guys "I REALLY DON'T"

See ya,
Kelly

[skamp]

LMAO!!!

As the father of many kids, and all but one being girls I'm rolling over laughing about the hairdryers. You have no idea how many times I've walked to our breaker box!!! The next time I build a new home I'll put in dual bathroom circuits or build a 5 bedroom with 5 bath home!!!

Here's a link of what you can look forward to, LOL!!!

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/pools/msg0701534410339.html

My son is now expecting a daughter in July of 07. Although I really envy you guys "I REALLY DON'T"

See ya,
Kelly


That looked like a great wedding. I attended a pool side wedding a few years back and it was really nice. Thanks for sharing the pictures!

Steve